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Fuchsia is not Linux

784 pointsby navigaidabout 7 years ago

41 comments

naaskingabout 7 years ago
Some problems I see from skimming the docs:<p>&gt; Calls which have no limitations, of which there are only a very few, for example zx_clock_get() and zx_nanosleep() may be called by any thread.<p>Having the clock be an ambient authority leaves the system open to easy timing attacks via implicit covert channels. I&#x27;m glad these kinds of timing attacks have gotten more attention with Spectre and Meltdown. Capability security folks have been pointing these out for decades.<p>&gt; Calls which create new Objects but do not take a Handle, such as zx_event_create() and zx_channel_create(). Access to these (and limitations upon them) is controlled by the Job in which the calling Process is contained.<p>I&#x27;m hesitant to endorse any system calls with ambient authority, even if it&#x27;s scoped by context like these. It&#x27;s far too easy to introduce subtle vulnerabilities. For instance, these calls seem to permit a Confused Deputy attack as long as two processes are running in the same Job.<p>Other notes on the kernel:<p>* The focus on handles overall is good though. Some capability security lessons have finally seeped into common knowledge!<p>* I&#x27;m not sure why they went with C++. You shouldn&#x27;t need dispatching or template metaprogramming in a microkernel, as code reuse is minimal since all primitives are supposed to be orthogonal to each other. That&#x27;s the whole point of a microkernel. Shapiro learned this from building the the early versions of EROS in C++, then switching to C. C also has modelling and formal analysis tools, like Frama-C.<p>* I don&#x27;t see any reification of scheduling as a handle or an object. Perhaps they haven&#x27;t gotten that far.<p>Looks like they&#x27;ll also support private namespacing ala Plan 9, which is great. I hope we can get a robust OS to replace existing antiquated systems with Google&#x27;s resources. This looks like a good start.
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leraxabout 7 years ago
To people which don&#x27;t understand the overall decision to create another system, I&#x27;ll talk about at least one benefit to create a system that is not Linux: make software more simple and efficient. Do you really think that Linux is so great? Linux is a bloat system [1], POSIX is not so great as well (do you really read the WHOLE POSIX spec?).<p>It&#x27;s important standards, it&#x27;s important sometimes (SOMETIMES) compatibility. But not all this stuff defined in POSIX it&#x27;s important. POSIX sucks sometimes [2], only GNU can be worse about being bloated [3].<p>Only users which don&#x27;t touch in code can think that Linux, POSIX and GNU are entities following principles based in simplicity. Linux following Unix guidelines? This only can be a joke of Linus.<p>Creating custom software, maintaining and other stuff on things THAT YOU DON&#x27;T UNDERSTAND has a massive cost. As well, the cost to understand complex things, it&#x27;s even worse.<p>Sometimes it&#x27;s even more simple re-inventing the wheel than understand why a wheel was build with a fractal design [4].<p>[1] Linux LOC overtime <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.linuxcounter.net&#x2F;statistics&#x2F;kernel" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.linuxcounter.net&#x2F;statistics&#x2F;kernel</a><p>[2] POSIX has become outdated <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cs.columbia.edu&#x2F;~vatlidak&#x2F;resources&#x2F;POSIXmagazine.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cs.columbia.edu&#x2F;~vatlidak&#x2F;resources&#x2F;POSIXmagazine...</a><p>[3] Code inflation about &#x2F;usr&#x2F;bin&#x2F;true <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pdfs.semanticscholar.org&#x2F;a417&#x2F;055105f9b3486c2ae7aec22a7dbd57e1ba3c.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pdfs.semanticscholar.org&#x2F;a417&#x2F;055105f9b3486c2ae7aec2...</a><p>[4] The Linux Programming Interface <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;doc.lagout.org&#x2F;programmation&#x2F;unix&#x2F;The%20Linux%20Programming%20Interface.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;doc.lagout.org&#x2F;programmation&#x2F;unix&#x2F;The%20Linux%20Prog...</a> (that cover of book has a reason and yes: it is what you think)
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pm90about 7 years ago
I see a lot of negative comments about this project here. Let me just say that: it doesn&#x27;t need to be a POSIX compliant system, doesn&#x27;t need to be user friendly or even provide something different from what can already be done with Linux or other OS&#x27;s that we have today.<p>Google spends a lot of money on research. One thing about research is that a lot of stuff you do ends up completely useless in the short term even if you cover all your bases initially. Even if this project fails, I hope something good can be learned from why it failed; maybe someone in the future can learn from those mistakes and try again.<p>I&#x27;m certainly no fan of Google nor of the way they make money. But I am very happy they use that money for stuff like this.
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Roritharrabout 7 years ago
I&#x27;m enthusiastic about Fuchsia, i really think there is a lot to gain by breaking with the old conventions, especially when you look at what is hindering true realtime computation approaches.<p>As a nice byproduct Google has a hedge against Linus dying and his replacement being incompetent at managing the community.
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0x0about 7 years ago
I find it interesting to note that the core fuchsia OS comes with &quot;magma&quot;, &quot;escher&quot; and &quot;scenic&quot;, which seems to be core OS services for composing one 3D scene across multiple processes (&quot;shadows can be cast on another process without it knowing about it&quot;)<p>Is that a hint that Fuchsia is a VR-first operating system?
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linuxftwabout 7 years ago
I have yet to see anything useful come from Fuchsia. There are tons of &#x27;press release&#x27; type blogs, but nothing functional. The bundled steps to run Fuchsia inside qemu didn&#x27;t work (and even shipped their own version of qemu in the scripts!)<p>I&#x27;m assuming the Fuchsia development is 100% about not having to use any GPL software. Look how hobbled the Android and ChromiumOS communities are compared to the Linux world at large.<p>As soon as someone outside of Google produces anything of any novelty around Fuchsia, I might change my mind, but for now I&#x27;m viewing it as a going-nowhere software project that&#x27;s all hype and will never be 100% Free and Open Source.
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valarauca1about 7 years ago
Zircon is very much in the legacy of linux.<p>The biggest sin of Linux API remains ioctl (and its variants). Zircon commits the same mistake with its `object_get_prop` [1] and `object_get_info` [2]. If you pretend to be type safe (have different getters for different obj-types), you can in the long run replace these calls with in-userland static calls where possible to accelerate performance (like linux does for futex and time).<p>Instead you get his &quot;It does A if you give it B, it does C if you give it D&quot; this is pretty bad API design as it <i>NEEDS</i> a void pointer. I&#x27;d rather see _a lot_ of simple with numbers related to the call. You have 4 million of them FFS (if you care about 32bit compatibility).<p>It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The API design is extremely nice otherwise, and these methods feel like such an after thought.<p>---<p>To be clear I really don&#x27;t care about POSIX compatibility, its easy to shoe horn in after you have a solid OS. The Windows-NT kernel has done it twice now (NT4.0 and Windows10).<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fuchsia.googlesource.com&#x2F;zircon&#x2F;+&#x2F;master&#x2F;docs&#x2F;syscalls&#x2F;object_get_property.md" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fuchsia.googlesource.com&#x2F;zircon&#x2F;+&#x2F;master&#x2F;docs&#x2F;syscal...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fuchsia.googlesource.com&#x2F;zircon&#x2F;+&#x2F;master&#x2F;docs&#x2F;syscalls&#x2F;object_get_info.md" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fuchsia.googlesource.com&#x2F;zircon&#x2F;+&#x2F;master&#x2F;docs&#x2F;syscal...</a>
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btillyabout 7 years ago
What do they mean by &quot;capability based&quot;?<p>A lot of people say &quot;capability based&quot; and really mean some very fine grained access control system. (A confusion encouraged by POSIX &quot;capabilities&quot;.) What I hope that they mean is the one that solves the <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Confused_deputy_problem" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Confused_deputy_problem</a><p>There are two VERY different meanings of the phrase. The one that I&#x27;m hoping for can be thought of like this.
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Khaineabout 7 years ago
One thing I don&#x27;t see addressed in the README is why? Why do we need Fuchsia? What problem are we trying to solve? Why should I use&#x2F;develop for it instead of Windows&#x2F;Linux&#x2F;macOS?<p>Or is this just a research operating system designed to test new ideas out?
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svagabout 7 years ago
As I can see, they use a microkernel architecture for the kernel[0]. I wonder why they need to create another microkernel OS and not re-use an existing one like MINIX 3 or QNX? What are the advantages of the Zircon Kernel compared to the MINIX 3 or QNX?<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fuchsia.googlesource.com&#x2F;docs&#x2F;+&#x2F;master&#x2F;the-book&#x2F;#Zircon-Kernel" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fuchsia.googlesource.com&#x2F;docs&#x2F;+&#x2F;master&#x2F;the-book&#x2F;#Zir...</a>
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squarefootabout 7 years ago
Soo, given that all important device drivers in the Linux kernel used in Android are closed, I&#x27;d be curious to hear from Google if their new Fuchsia is going to solve that problem.<p>This may seem trivial, but closed device drivers make 100% impossible neither to update them to more modern versions once the Android version is declared obsolete, nor install natively a different operating system on the device. This practice, security concerns aside, is responsible for a huge load of old -otherwise perfectly usable- devices being scrapped in landfills.<p>So, dear Google, will you keep the lowest, smallest but most important layers of the OS open or rather will prevent people to do what they want with the devices they purchased even at the cost of contributing to more pollution?
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lambdaabout 7 years ago
How about some discussion of Fuchsia itself, instead of &quot;why reinvent the wheel&quot; or &quot;Linux is bloated&quot;?<p>From my reading so far, it looks like Fuchsia takes some of the better parts of the POSIX model, the way file descriptors can be uses as capabilities, and extends its usage more consistently over the API so that it is used in a lot more places. In Fuchsia they are handles, which are arbitrary 32 bit integers, but they act a lot like somewhat richer, more consistent file descriptors. You can clone them, possibly with limited rights like read only, you can send them over IPC channels, etc.<p>There are some differences, in that there&#x27;s no absolute path handling directly in the kernel; instead, you always open relative to some particular file handle. A process may be given two that can be used to emulate POSIX style path resolution, by being given a root directory handle and a current working directory handle, though there may not be a guarantee that one contains the other; it sounds like more commonly application will just be given handles for the files or directories they are supposed to access, rather than having everything go through path resolution.<p>Signal handling is done consistently with waiting for data on handles; handles just have various states they can be in, like ready for reading, ready for writing (for file handles), running or stopped (for process handles), etc, and you can wait for changes of state on any of a variety of different handles.<p>Memory mapping can be done by allocating a virtual memory object, which you could either not map (treat it as an anonymous temporary file), write to, and then pass to another process, or you could map it into your process, manipulate it, clone the handle, and pass that to another process. Basically seems like a cleaner design for shared memory handling than POSIX, though something a lot like it can be done in Linux these days with anonymous shared memory and sealing.<p>Jobs, processes, and threads are also all handles. Jobs contain processes and other jobs, and processes contain threads. Jobs group together resource limitations (things like limits on numbers of handles, limits on total memory used, bandwidth limits, etc), processes are separate address spaces, and threads are separate threads of execution in one address space. The fact that jobs and processes are all handles, instead of IDs, means that you don&#x27;t have to worry about all of the weird race conditions of trying to track things by PID when that PID may no longer exist and could be reused in the future.<p>An interesting part is how program loading happens. In POSIX like OSes, you fork your process, which creates a clone of the process, and then exec, which asks the kernel to replace the running program with one loaded from another file. You give the kernel the path to a file, and the kernel calls the dynamic linker on that path to link the shared libraries together and then execute the result. In Fuchsia, you just build the new address space in the parent process, and then ask the kernel to start a new process in that address space, with execution starting at a particular point in it and some parameters loaded into particular registers. This basically means that the dynamic linker will now be done by a library call in the parent process; which could be really advantageous for those processes that fork the same executable as a subprocess many times, as they can link the executable once into some read only pages, and then very quickly spawn multiple processes from that same already linked program. I&#x27;m sure that ld.so and friends on Linux and other POSIX-like OSs have a lot of caching optimizations to make this faster, but it sounds to me that the Fuchsia model of just having the parent process do the linking as a library call could be a lot faster.<p>(edit to add: hmm, upon further reading, it looks like they expect process creation to happen from a single central system process, rather than providing the dynamic linker API, &quot;launchpad&quot;, as a supported API; but for now it looks like you can use the launchpad library)<p>It basically looks a lot like what you would wish the POSIX API worked like with a lot of hindsight. A lot simpler and more consistent, and does a much better job of &quot;everything is a file&quot; than the POSIX API ever did (of course, it&#x27;s &quot;everything is a handle,&quot; but that&#x27;s fine, the point is that there&#x27;s one consistent way to work with everything).
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CodeArtisanabout 7 years ago
Looks like they are using Dart for developing applications. This seems to be the dart sdk for fuchsia<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fuchsia.googlesource.com&#x2F;topaz&#x2F;+&#x2F;master" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fuchsia.googlesource.com&#x2F;topaz&#x2F;+&#x2F;master</a><p>There is no documentation at all but there is a few application examples in &#x2F;app&#x2F;. The bindings for fuchsia and zircon (kernel) are in &#x2F;public&#x2F;dart-pkg&#x2F;
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jeremy_wiebeabout 7 years ago
Somewhat tangential to the topic but one really cool project related to Fuchsia is the Xi text editor project written in Rust.<p>The author (Raph Levine) has a very interesting series of posts on data structures and algorithms used in the editor (like rope data structures)<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;google&#x2F;xi-editor&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;google&#x2F;xi-editor&#x2F;</a>
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_bxg1about 7 years ago
It seems reasonable to want to build a modern OS from scratch; Linux has survived and adapted remarkably well, but it has many aspects that are rooted in the past and just can&#x27;t be shaken off. The world has changed a lot. I just hope Fuchsia remains truly open-source and doesn&#x27;t become a power-play by Google.
oldandtiredabout 7 years ago
It has been an interesting read of the many different points of view in support of C or of C++. But there is an elephant in the room here.<p>The problem with most languages, including the ubiquitous C, C++, Java et al, is that there are implementation defined behaviours and undefined behaviours that are specifically placed in these languages.<p>A previous discussion, which I can&#x27;t locate at the moment, did discuss this in detail. Most programmers have a serious flaw in that they do not document. They may produce documents but they do not document. Every assumption, every trick and why it is used, every implementation defined behaviour, every reasoning as to the use of specific algorithms should be documented and is not.<p>I have seen incredibly detailed documents for programs that just miss some of the basic essential assumptions because &quot;everyone knows them&quot;.<p>In everyday communications, we use language in a dynamic way, meanings can be changed subtly and we get around the errors. With the programming of machines, there is no such leeway ever. Our languages should be defined completely so that we will know that what we have written has actual meaning.<p>the reality, of course, is that this is a &quot;pipe-dream&quot; and won&#x27;t happen. But as programmers, we could start calling for such completeness of definition of the languages we use.
netheril96about 7 years ago
People here seem to be amazed that this project is in C++, rather than a simpler language (C) or a more modern language (Rust). But you must notice that this is a Google project, and Google writes many many projects, internal and external in C++. It almost never writes in plain C, and has no penchant for fancy new programming languages. You may disagree, but Google doesn&#x27;t care.
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markstosabout 7 years ago
Well, &quot;GNU is Not Unix&quot; and that worked out OK. On the page it says it is &quot;POSIX lite&quot;, so it likely be recognized a rather Unix-like, and and a number of things may likely end being able to be compiled on it with few modifications due to the POSIX-like environment. The `brew` project on macOS would be a related example.
juhanimaabout 7 years ago
Microkernel, huh? At least now we will have a chance to get some empirical evidence to resolve the famous Torvalds - Tanenbaum debacle. It&#x27;s going to be interesting to see how Fuchsia pans out and in what kind of environments it can be used.
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fookerabout 7 years ago
There seems to be system calls to create and manage Virtual CPUs.<p>What is this for? Is there a precedent?
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akavelabout 7 years ago
Does anybody know how it compares to GenodeOS (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;genode.org" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;genode.org</a>)?
ProAmabout 7 years ago
Why use a new OS from a company with historically bad customer support, will likely report everything you do back to google HQ for analytics and frequently abandons projects once developers get tired of it. Sounds like a computing nightmare, I&#x27;d be very hesitant to voluntarily use it.
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ryanlolabout 7 years ago
Tangentially related, has anyone tried using the netstack (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;google&#x2F;netstack" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;google&#x2F;netstack</a>) in their projects?<p>Currently looking to see if this would be suitable for our high performance networking needs, haven&#x27;t seen anyone else actually using it though.
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Quequauabout 7 years ago
Has anyone found a how-to for installing this on something like an RPi or maybe a VM or whatever?
AndriyKunitsynabout 7 years ago
So, this is a microkernel.<p>Could anybody please explain me why microkernels are so great, when practically they do nothing more but push the overhead of switching threads to extreme? Basically, everything that program does requires waiting for scheduler to execute whatever service we send messages to. Disk, sockets, devices - everything. All of which is made in the name of memory safety.<p>On the other hand, unikernels that execute nothing but managed code (e.g. not code of CPU, but code for some virtual machine such JVM or .Net, which is forbidden to read other processes&#x27; memory on the syntax level) solve the same problem of protecting system memory, while carrying much less overhead. I guess this approach would be more preferable for creating a new mobile-oriented OS that requires good performance and low power consumption, no?
Boulthabout 7 years ago
It&#x27;s interesting that Google even registered fuchsia.com, used in examples.
tyingqabout 7 years ago
Assuming you want to build things yourself only when it&#x27;s a differentiator, not sure I get Fuchsia.<p>Any &quot;bloat&quot; or slowness on Android seems more likely to be Java, or something other than the base OS.<p>Maybe I&#x27;m missing something?
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lucasnicheleabout 7 years ago
Obviously, this is the same compare banana with pineapple. As linus live, linux will never be microkernel.
nailerabout 7 years ago
UX folks: Raph Levine works on Fuschia. Here&#x27;s some video, alas I couldn&#x27;t find anything from this year.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=HpBbbd8y2kM" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=HpBbbd8y2kM</a>
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peter_retiefabout 7 years ago
It has taken decades to make linux stable and relatively bug free (Discounting systemd) As much as it would be great to have a new OS I wonder what is it based on and why?
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mortdeusabout 7 years ago
whats wrong with linux?
aidenn0about 7 years ago
Did they write a completely new microkernel for this? If so, I&#x27;m curious why.
mankash666about 7 years ago
Google clearly has a LOT of cash to play with. They could have refactored&#x2F;re-used the permissively licensed BSD core, but ended up re-inventing the wheel, breaking a TON of POSIX based software.<p>For what benefit exactly?
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jacksmith21006about 7 years ago
It is hard to imagine this kernel being anywhere near as efficient as Linux. What makes Chromebooks so great is peppy performance on cheap hardware that you just could never achieve with Windows.
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s2gabout 7 years ago
Fuchsia would be pretty cool, if it wasn&#x27;t being developed by Google.<p>Not gonna use an OS from that company.
newnewpdroabout 7 years ago
More importantly, Fuchsia is not GPL.
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cmollisabout 7 years ago
So it’s....Mac OS X?
alokitrabout 7 years ago
I can&#x27;t wait for this to be a huge bloated system that nobody comprehends in its entirety. Oh, wait
mihaelaabout 7 years ago
I don&#x27;t have a problem with Google&#x27;s resources to build something of that magnitude successfully. My problem is with their execution. All their products are in perpetual beta. And the users are forever testers. That&#x27;s their business model, and it doesn&#x27;t call for great UI&#x2F;UX.
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flyingcircus3about 7 years ago
&quot;Senator, while I agree in the general sense that Fuchsia is not Linux, It appears that in this specific case, its just Yet Another Linux.&quot;<p>How is this not the latest iteration of not invented here syndrome? Any system like Linux or Python that has the &quot;Benevolent Dictator For Life&quot; holding the reins is inherently saying that they favor quality over quantity. Its almost like the US Senate, in that the very goal is to go only as fast as prudent.
geijoenrabout 7 years ago
I really don&#x27;t get this coming up with a new OS&#x27;s thing every now and then.<p>As I see it, is all about driver support; just because is the bigger effort. That is why vendors (and the community) focus in only one or two options (Windows&#x2F;Linux).<p>Anybody can come up with new fancy OSs, as a matter of fact many people does. Problem is, there is no incentive for vendors to produce specific drivers for those, and the communities are just to small to cope with the huge amount of hardware support to make them useful.<p>I just don&#x27;t see the point of coming up with new OSs as long as Windows&#x2F;Linux just work as intended.
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