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Mindfulness may have been over-hyped

171 pointsby abhi3about 7 years ago

37 comments

ecwilsonabout 7 years ago
Well, mindfulness certainly has been overhyped. Apps and gurus have pushed it as a cure-all and people have eaten it up because our society is broken and people are over stressed. Mindfulness is simply an introductory technique meant to be expanded upon.<p>Personally, I&#x27;ve still found it very useful. When I&#x27;m meditating frequently, I&#x27;m less reactive -- it&#x27;s like there&#x27;s this new sense of &quot;self&quot; that is observing and controlling my brain, whereas before, or when my meditation habit lapses, my brain is just doing it&#x27;s thing in a more reactive way. This has been incredibly useful both personally and professionally.
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thepumpkin1979about 7 years ago
I can tell it’s a billion dollar business, I launched a Meditation app two months ago, we had good retention and users were loving the app. Then the guy we hired to do the voice over disappeared with no explanation so we couldn’t fulfill our promise of “daily meditation” because the voice was not the same. 15 days later I understood why: We received a Cease and Desist from one of the companies behind the top meditation and mindfulness apps in the AppStore. They certainly don’t want anybody to enter that niche.
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Insanityabout 7 years ago
When I see mindfulness mentioned, I am often reminded of my eastern philosophy classes. Mindfulness is not a &#x27;moment of the day&#x27;, it&#x27;s a way of living your life.<p>The idea was that in the west, we would take these ideas and try to fit them into a western world which is a world where time == money. So you get these things like &#x27;mindfulness classes&#x27; where, for one hour, you practice being in a state of mindfulness whilst the rest of the week you go through your life as usual.<p>I guess that when we took the idea of mindfulness and put it in a package that fit our society, it might have gotten hyped and more distant from its essence. This just to state that mindfulness might still be worth your time - just not the &#x27;prepackaged&#x27; version.<p>* Small disclaimer: I do not practice it, I&#x27;m just being a parrot of some philosophy classes that I thought were interesting.
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qnttyabout 7 years ago
Alternatively: meditation turns out to be harder than popularizers tend to let on
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hikarudoabout 7 years ago
There&#x27;s an article [1] entitled &quot;Meditation en masse - how colonialism sparked the global Vipassana movement&quot;.<p>When the British conquered the Buddhist kingdom of Burma, Buddhism lost the protection it had from the king. The laity then organized in order to defend their Buddhist institutions, and people began to study the dhamma like never before.<p>This gave rise to talented monks who preached to the laity. Then Ledi Sayadaw, a Burmese monk, began preaching that meditation was not something that only monks who dedicated their lives to it could do, but was available to anyone. This led to a lineage of lay teachers of meditation, one of whom was Goenka, the founder of the Vipassana meditation movement.<p>In short, the modern Vipassana movement has its origins in the popularization of meditation which was a result of British colonialism in Burma.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tricycle.org&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;meditation-en-masse&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tricycle.org&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;meditation-en-masse&#x2F;</a>
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jknoepflerabout 7 years ago
As someone who meditates daily, I would be surprised if meditation had substantial therapeutic benefit for anything beyond some behavioral disorders.<p>Meditation for me is about truth seeking. I emerge from zazen feeling as though I understand myself and the world around me more honestly. It has long term implications for how I think and behave, certainly, but probably not in any medically interesting sense.<p>I don&#x27;t expect studying physics or building a deck to change my health outcomes measurably. Meditating isn&#x27;t different in kind.<p>The value that I gain from &quot;just sitting&quot; is not something I can articulate very well in words. I would certainly encourage others to meditate daily, but meditation won&#x27;t mend broken bones or unclog arteries or replace neurotransmitters the body can&#x27;t produce enough of naturally. It&#x27;s just sitting, after all.
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chasehaabout 7 years ago
The comments here so far seem to be focusing on the click-baity title... the article is actually a good review of mindfulness research and next steps in the field
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jacquesmabout 7 years ago
You don&#x27;t say. I&#x27;ve seen companies that really couldn&#x27;t afford it get sucked in to this nonsense at great expense and with very little to show for it. But some &#x27;mindfulness consultant&#x27; made off with the loot. Besides the fact that you can&#x27;t really force employees into stuff that they wouldn&#x27;t do out of their own volition (imagine a company that suddenly forced all the employees to visit Scientology sessions regularly or something that effect).<p>These hype cycles only serve the people that peddle the hype.<p>Of course people are totally free to do what they want in their own time and if they feel like spending that on &#x27;mindfulness&#x27; (which conveniently is so vague it could mean just about anything) then that&#x27;s fine. Back in the 80&#x27;s everybody seemed to have their personal Guru, now we have this. 20 years from now we&#x27;ll probably have something else that takes its place.
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dvcrnabout 7 years ago
If it wasn’t this overhyped, and if not everyone and their dog told me to try it, it would have never crossed my mind.<p>If it works or not, I don’t know but I enjoy my moment of silence a lot. I also love that it gives me more and more frequently moments where I realize where and when I actually am instead of moving on autopilot through my day.<p>As cliche as it sounds, I for example stopped listening to music on the train and just listen to my surroundings and “be there”. My social media and phone addiction almost completely disappeared and I’m just in general a nicer person.<p>Again, what of that is actually attributed to meditation and mindfulness, I don’t know but it’s been great.
eptcykaabout 7 years ago
Usually, practicing being mindful just brings about more anxiety than if I were to lose myself into doing something that has the capability of swallowing me whole - such as playing video games, running, driving, having long walks.
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duncan_bayneabout 7 years ago
Is there a name for this cycle?<p>1. Useful $THING gets mentioned in the news (mindfulness, AI, cryptocurrency, ...)<p>2. $THING gets hyped into orbit ($THING consultants, $THING apps, $THING books, $THING as a way of life, ...)<p>3. We start seeing articles like &quot;$THING has been over-hyped&quot; or &quot;$THING results not replicated&quot;.<p>4. $THING drops out of the limelight, sometimes into a worse position than it started in because of the &#x27;negative&#x27; press.<p>5. A new $THING emerges ...<p><i>Edited</i>: not trying to be snarky here (see below for the actual term I was looking for). It&#x27;s just that this is a pattern I&#x27;ve seen repeated so many times, in tech. and elsewhere.
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Zakabout 7 years ago
I&#x27;d compare it to a physical workout: it&#x27;s not necessarily a good treatment for a specific disease or injury and may even be harmful to a person who isn&#x27;t well. Being in shape, however makes a person generally more resilient to disease and injury.
tim333about 7 years ago
The article talks a lot about PTSD but mindfulness meditation was not designed for that so it&#x27;s maybe not surprising it doesn&#x27;t fix it. Funnily enough they recently seem to have found a fix with MDMA <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.independent.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;health&#x2F;mdma-ecstasy-mdma-post-traumatic-stress-disorder-veterans-a8332561.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.independent.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;health&#x2F;mdma-ecstasy-mdma-...</a><p>Mindfulness, according to Wikipedia:<p>&gt;In Buddhist teachings, mindfulness is utilized to develop self-knowledge and wisdom that gradually lead to what is described as enlightenment<p>(by the way there were recent discussions of meditation, more of the get thing done variety, by the Sapiens guy here <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=13905249" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=13905249</a> and a link to Seinfeld on Meditation <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=13909346" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=13909346</a> which I&#x27;m having a look at)
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suneilpabout 7 years ago
There is too much analysis of mindfulness and meditation. So you&#x27;ll end up with analyzing yourself too much while looking for that glorious state of detaching your self from your self to get into that witness mode and apply all the philosophies, ideals, influences crammed into your head to each thought you have.<p>So my suggestion is while meditating, drop all that stuff, sit alone at home&#x2F;indoor, or quiet outdoor area, and just be meditative while listening to your breath instead of &quot;meditating&quot;, and trust you understand basic human decency. Being yogic-like, or whatever, doesn&#x27;t mean you have to be what people commonly think that means. Just be you.<p>That&#x27;s how I&#x27;ve always viewed yoga&#x2F;tantra as at it&#x27;s core. There is more to yoga and tantra than that but there is no need to go there unless you&#x27;re interested. For most people, they just want to de-stress and heal their mind and body and be themselves. The regular practice of meditation like this extends into regular activities and has improved my productivity, tempered my reactivity to shit, etc.
gowldabout 7 years ago
I never understood the difference or relationship between trace-like &quot;meditation&quot; and &quot;mindfulness&quot; (which I thought is something like introspecting into your mental state to recognize and defuse your emotions, like the &quot;HALT: Hunger, Anger, Loneliness, and Tiredness&quot; self-check)
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shekharshanabout 7 years ago
Buddha gave the path of end of suffering as eight noble qualities: &quot;right view&quot;, &quot;right intention&quot;, &quot;right speech&quot;, &quot;right action&quot;, &quot;right effort&quot;, &quot;right livelihood&quot;, &quot;right mindfulness&quot;, and &quot;right concentration&quot;.<p>Notice &quot;right mindfulness&quot; is different than &quot;right concentration&quot; and it is just 1&#x2F;8th of the path. When your hypothesis is 1&#x2F;8th of the complete picture, of course your studies will prove it does not work.
ahartmetzabout 7 years ago
This seems to be a phenomenon similar to &quot;agile washing&quot;. It actually works if you internalize it, turn it over in your mind and make it your own. It doesn&#x27;t work if you just hire a trainer and otherwise treat it as a necessary evil. Based on the opinion of a friend who reports good results from reading a book about mindfulness and practicing it.<p>There are a bunch of similar comments here, this is just a slightly different angle on it.
anoncoward1234about 7 years ago
Mindfulness isn&#x27;t over-hyped. Mindfulness takes <i></i>effort<i></i>. There&#x27;s crazy videos of buddhist monks walking on their thumbs. People can raise their body temperature several degrees at will (and it&#x27;s how a lot of open ocean swimmers survive, say, crossing the english channel). But it takes practice, every day, for years and you can&#x27;t fake it - you&#x27;re body knows you&#x27;re cheating and can&#x27;t be bribed.<p>Given that - how do you do a statistical analysis across the population of mindfulness meditation vs. pill popping? Pills always work, often with horrible debilitating side effects (yay Opioids!). Meanwhile the monk I met who learned to walk again after being confined to a wheelchair (gymnastics injury) had to sit under a tree for several years doing muscle exercises and willing the pain away.<p>So of course science can&#x27;t rationalize it. How do you measure the strength of will of people? It&#x27;s not so easy to put these sorts of things into a study. So I guess we&#x27;ll keep eating the poison pill. Shrug.
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silentsea90about 7 years ago
$$$ via attention seeking articles : First X gets hyped thanks to tons of articles from publications like this, then there are counter articles calling X overhyped. Then there are articles calling for balance&#x2F;nuance in X. X = AI, mindfulness, blockchain, health tracking apps, self driving cars, yoga...<p>News businesses will create a hype curve for every phenomenon.
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macawfishabout 7 years ago
Say the same people responsible for the overhyping headlines. Obnoxious!<p>Meanwhile at University of Wisconsin, Madison:<p><i>Study reveals gene expression changes with meditation</i><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.wisc.edu&#x2F;study-reveals-gene-expression-changes-with-meditation&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.wisc.edu&#x2F;study-reveals-gene-expression-changes-...</a>
maroonblazerabout 7 years ago
The original article appears here with the much less click-baity headline:<p>&quot;Peering into the meditating mind&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.knowablemagazine.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;mind&#x2F;2018&#x2F;peering-meditating-mind" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.knowablemagazine.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;mind&#x2F;2018&#x2F;peering-m...</a>
spicymakiabout 7 years ago
Yes, extracting the mindfulness techniques out of vipassana practice and then trying to use it to cure PTSD, anxiety, and poor work performance is bound to fail. Being mindful of your neurotic behavior is useful, but it does not help unless you act and change the circumstances that is causing the problem.
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Mikeb85about 7 years ago
Mindfulness isn&#x27;t overhyped, but it also doesn&#x27;t work if you&#x27;re not committed. Mindfulness seminars or apps aren&#x27;t going to change you, they might be a nice introduction, but meditation is a practice that you need to make part of your life to truly get results.
qwerty456127about 7 years ago
It can be considered &quot;over-hyped&quot; in a way but I believe it is not hyped sufficiently as long as the majority of people still haven&#x27;t mastered it. Lack of mindfulness skill and habit is pretty much like the &quot;gluteal amnesia&quot; syndrome: there is a natural thing your butt muscles should be doing all the way you go but in just so many people it doesn&#x27;t, same thing with your mind and mindfulness. And you don&#x27;t necessarily need an instructor for this: it&#x27;s a valid way to get started but for many people (not for everybody, of course) some books and free YouTube videos can be enough as well.
thisisitabout 7 years ago
I am not surprised because Mindfulness is not a cure-all.<p>I recently read Goleman&#x27;s Emotional Intelligence. One of the key takeaways for me was the nature of mindfulness&#x2F;meditation. To paraphase Goleman Mindfulness&#x2F;meditation works by alleviating your mood. So, if there is lot of anger or you tend to get worried a lot, meditation works.<p>But, if you tend to be more dispirited most of the time then meditation actually doesn&#x27;t work for you. A better solution is to try and get into an upbeat mood. Exercise, exciting adventure sports etc might be a better option.
matte_blackabout 7 years ago
Mindfulness brings no advantage except the realization that we are not our mind, that we exist as a being beyond it, that our thoughts are mostly response to stimulus. If you ignore stimulus, there are no thoughts. If you observe the mind intently, it inevitably struggles to do much thinking about anything. What is profound about this conclusion?<p>Nothing.<p>It does not lead to better memories. It does not lead to more satisfaction. It does not bring more joy. It does not make you more productive. Does it help you focus better? Maybe. But practicing to actually <i>focus</i> is much more efficient.
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wizardofmysoreabout 7 years ago
I have been practicing mindfulness meditation for the past five years and it has shown positive benefits for mental health in terms of being less reactive and calm. My immunity has also increased, I used to have a lot of allergies and used to get throat infection regularly but I don&#x27;t now.<p>One observation is that mindfulness meditation in the night reduced sleep quality.<p>Second is that mindfulness meditation is another exercise. It is aimed at increasing focus, since what you are doing is trying to focus. It isn&#x27;t a cure for every mental ailment.
fourtharkabout 7 years ago
&quot;Or it may not have. We don&#x27;t really know anything.&quot;<p>I find these articles very frustrating.<p>&quot;Maybe it&#x27;s good, sounds like of good, right? But studies are inconclusive!&quot;<p>So what are you saying? And why so many stock photos?
keeptryingabout 7 years ago
The article seems to be struggling to differentiate between mindfulness, meditation and negative aspects of the same like rumination.<p>As the battle for our attention increases rapidly, its going to be ever more important to truly understand all these tools and make use of them.<p>I think the meaning of mindfulness is mis-understood in a very large part of the population rather than it being over-hyped.
c12about 7 years ago
The self-help &#x27;there is a book and a subscription and an app for that&#x27; modern take on mindfulness which is entirely in place to make money is of course over-hyped and largely predatory in nature.<p>This shouldn&#x27;t take away from the fact that mindfulness does help people. Just that if you&#x27;re paying for it, you are quite likely doing it wrong.
throwaway84742about 7 years ago
I think the entire benefit of this (assuming there is any) is in setting aside a few minutes per day to fully relax. I’m also pretty sure a power nap would be better, but it’s generally less socially acceptable, especially in a work environment.
curlcntrabout 7 years ago
Mindfulness style meditation without any goals or objectives, no clock or apps. No expectations. Just the beauty of it. For me, that has been most consistent with the nature of the practice itself.
danschumannabout 7 years ago
Wim Hof is where it&#x27;s at though. Cold exposure and breathing
mmajcherabout 7 years ago
Here&#x27;s a talk on the subject from famous buddhist monk and teacher Ajahn Brahm.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=eGjXEM1HZ54&amp;t=1s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=eGjXEM1HZ54&amp;t=1s</a><p>TLDR There are other things necessary for mindfulness&#x2F;meditation to really take off. Things like ethics, right view and other parts of Eightfold Path (buddhist practice). Those give a mind basic clarity and joy necessary for successful practice.
moreorlessabout 7 years ago
Ask 20 &quot;experts&quot; on what it is and you get 20 different answers. :P
vermadenabout 7 years ago
A lot of things today are overhyped.
sfRattanabout 7 years ago
No kidding. Dealt with pitches for &#x27;mindfulness&#x27; as a practicing stoic for years.<p>&quot;Dude, you should check out mindfulness. You&#x27;d really be into it.&quot;<p>Nope. As best I could ever tell, mindfulness was a pop-psych pastiche of various bits of Buddhism, Daoism, and Stoicism designed to sell self-help books and consulting hours.<p>I can&#x27;t speak for Buddhism and I&#x27;ve heard that the Daodejing appears cryptic now because the body of contemporary Chinese literature it frequently alludes to has been largely lost to history. But the surviving late stoic works are surprisingly accessible, even in stilted translations, making it much easier to see through attempts to repackage old ideas and make a quick buck.
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