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In Germany, the use of cash has become a proxy for concerns about trust, privacy

138 pointsby ShadowFaxSamalmost 7 years ago

25 comments

mpweiheralmost 7 years ago
It&#x27;s not a proxy, it&#x27;s real.<p>German retailers have &quot;discount cards&quot;, which give you a little off in return for the ability to use your data.<p>If you pay with a card, they don&#x27;t need to do that, they already have your info, what you bought, when etc.<p>No thanks, I want my relationship with shops to be simple: I give you money, you give me product.<p>And of course cash has the added benefit of being <i>tangible</i>. It&#x27;s in your wallet, then it&#x27;s not. Spending more means taking out more bills, or bigger bills.
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ShadowFaxSamalmost 7 years ago
&gt;Yet for many Germans, the convenience of electronic payment is beside the point. Rather, the use of cash has, to a surprising extent, become a proxy for profound concerns about trust, privacy, and the role of the state.<p>I&#x27;ve been banging my head against the table since moving to Germany about the lack of convenience with cash payments and the need to constantly visit the ATM. Yet the economy is doing just fine.
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zhdc1almost 7 years ago
In my experience, it has little to do with public trust and a lot to do with payment processor fees and an older population (which includes middle aged and older shop owners) having an aversion to paying in anything other than cash.<p>A cashless bakery opened up here recently, and it was a big enough deal to make several newspapers.
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perlgeekalmost 7 years ago
Cash is <i>fast</i>.<p>Traditional direct debit payment takes around 20 seconds or so.<p>An experienced cashier is much faster in giving you your change if you pay cash.<p>There is a newish &quot;instant&quot; payment with NFC chips, that doesn&#x27;t require a PIN or a signature if you pay less than 20 €. It&#x27;s much faster (maybe 5 seconds?), but it&#x27;s not available everywhere yet. Certainly not at shops where you typically only spend small amounts (bakery, small Asian fast-food places etc.).
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antrisalmost 7 years ago
As I understand it, German obsession with privacy and cash stems largely from WW2. Information that the government had about its citizens were used to round up Jews to put them in ghettos and concentration camps.<p>It&#x27;s a lesson that I wish the rest of the world had had as well.
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matthiaslalmost 7 years ago
I wonder how well you could track cash if you wanted to.<p>ATMs could OCR and log the serial numbers of bills they dispense, and they obviously know who they&#x27;re dispensing to. Banks could do the same with incoming cash at the end of the business day.<p>The tracking would be weaker than with electronic payments since some notes will be re-used after being given as change, but it&#x27;d still be useful to a government that wants to track its population.
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alleskleberalmost 7 years ago
In my experience some Germans are quite skeptical about technology when it comes to money. Cash is so simple, nothing can go wrong. Cash just works - always. Privacy is more of a bonus point. It&#x27;s used as an argument a lot but I think Germans are so used to carry cash, it&#x27;s just not perceived as a major annoyance.
1ba9115454almost 7 years ago
I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s that Germans want to only use cash, I think it&#x27;s more that the payment systems in Germany are not great.<p>Lot&#x27;s of bars&#x2F;beer gardens&#x2F;shops can&#x27;t take cards.<p>German banks seem to use their own system called EC card which is not usable anywhere else in the world.<p>You can&#x27;t use an EC card to buy stuff online you have to make a bank transfer.
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beagle3almost 7 years ago
The article is unashamedly biased in favor of electronic transactions. It ignores (or I missed it) dissenting voices in Sweden[0], and quotes Ken Rogoff about buying apartments in cash (and thus avoiding tax), which doesn&#x27;t sound applicable to Germany which has a precise, essentially authoritative real estate registry system (that is, if your home is not registered to you in the registry, it is not YOUR home). Some countries require you to list the transaction price&#x2F;details, with proof of it is not within the norm; I don&#x27;t know if that is required or not in Germany, but such a requirement will do more against property value taxation fraud than a cashless society.<p>It also seems to mention but downplay the part history plays here; Every german has friend or family with stories about the abuse of power in east germany (and older ones in Nazi germany as well).<p>It&#x27;s a question of &quot;when&quot;, not &quot;if&quot; centrally controlled electronic cash will be abused - precedents already exist - and the collective German memory is still too strong to ignore the implications (the way the rest of the western world evidently does ignore).<p>[0] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-43645676" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-43645676</a>
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rb808almost 7 years ago
I know a few small business owners in Europe and they all prefer cash as a way to avoid the hefty sales &amp; income taxes. They want cash sales, pay some employees under the table, do their own spending in cash - even new cars and property. The last thing anyone wants is an electronic record of money going in and out.<p>So yes its privacy but not in the way the article talks about.
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therealmarvalmost 7 years ago
In Germany (or better to say German banks) it&#x27;s still common to not get any instant phone notification on card payments. In many other EU countries it&#x27;s common to get at least SMS.<p>Actually I also distrust systems where you need to verify your card payments at the end of the month.
aswansonalmost 7 years ago
Conversely, I recall social trust being so high in Switzerland than when we comes at a restaurant, my coworker just handed the waiter a business card, and he took the name down to bill the company our tab.
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BjoernKWalmost 7 years ago
While many people claim to be using cash for privacy reasons the same people often are absolutely fine with using a digital loyalty card called Payback (I&#x27;m not making this up. This is the actual name ...), which is widely used in Germany.<p>So, I suppose this is not so much about privacy at all but rather about laziness or stubbornness.
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PinguTSalmost 7 years ago
Cash is cool. Cash is anonymously. Cash is independent from any payment processor. Cash has no payment fees. Cash does not require power, so it is somehow environment friendly. Cash is just cool.
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expertentippalmost 7 years ago
...while loyalty cards, points, and systems are thriving... old population and retailers unwilling to take over the transactions fees. Dont’t make any philosophies out of it. The same reasons why the internet is so shit in this country.
birdmanjeremyalmost 7 years ago
Portugal is the lowest on the list. In my experience, it&#x27;s also heavily biased towards cash, at least compared to the US. Perhaps the &quot;value in Euros&quot; is skewed because it&#x27;s cheaper in Portugal than Germany?
georgeecollinsalmost 7 years ago
Studies show that you tend to be more frugle when you spend in cash. There is a reason why casinos give you chips. I always try to use cash when I can.
jessaustinalmost 7 years ago
I&#x27;m confused. Yesterday I learned that Japan had too much cash. TIL Germany has too much cash. I hear on a regular basis that USA has too much cash, and don&#x27;t get them started on the checks...<p>Where on earth is it, that fortunate land in which the happy people have gotten rid of their cash? Surely their economy is booming, and everyone is happy to have sacrificed the advantages of cash so as to optimize that fundamentally important transaction: hipsters buying overpriced coffee-related beverages without tipping.
coineronealmost 7 years ago
At least, Germany is not as bad as Japan!
no_identdalmost 7 years ago
Having read most of the comments here, I come to the conclusion that y&#x27;all need to start comprehending the difference between &#x27;cash&#x27; and &#x27;bank money&#x27;, and no, I don&#x27;t mean the conspiracy theory laden bullshit spread around by the most terrible Zeitgeist movies. I mean the real deal. Here, a paper on it:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.paecon.net&#x2F;PAEReview&#x2F;issue80&#x2F;Huber80.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.paecon.net&#x2F;PAEReview&#x2F;issue80&#x2F;Huber80.pdf</a> Huber, Joseph - Split-circuit reserve banking - functioning, dysfunctions and future perspectives<p>Abstract: &quot;This paper first provides a detailed outline of how the present money system works. This then serves as a backdrop to discuss a number of orthodox fallacies and heterodox flaws in money theory, followed by a summary of the dysfunctions of split-circuit reserve banking and a brief outlook on the perspective of a single-circuit sovereign money system.&quot;<p>Keywords; monetary economics, money theory, credit creation, banking theory, fractional reserve banking, monetary policy, monetary reform<p>One may find comments on the paper here:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rwer.wordpress.com&#x2F;comments-on-rwer-issue-no-80&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rwer.wordpress.com&#x2F;comments-on-rwer-issue-no-80&#x2F;</a><p>I&#x27;ll quote part of the paper here, and I&#x27;d strongly recommend reading all of it if you want to have any understanding of modern economics <i></i>at all<i></i>:<p>&quot;[...]<p>Modern money is non-cash<p>As far as traditional solid cash (banknotes and coins) is still in use, cash circulation represents a third circuit. In contrast to precious-metal coins, and like reserves, cash is token fiat money today. But rather than circulating between central bank accounts (reserves) or between bank accounts (bankmoney), traditional solid cash circulates from hand to hand in public circulation, without needing banks, or central banks respectively, as a trusted third party. Regarding the future of money, modern digital cash based on some form of blockchain technology might become a modern equivalent of traditional cash (notwithstanding the question of who will issue and control the stock of such digital currency). In any case, in a basically cashless money system based on money-on-account, traditional cash is no longer of defining relevance.<p>Within the frame of reserve banking, cash and money-on-account must not be confused as is done by negligent speak, and even by official accounting standards.¹ At source, modern money is non-cash, a credit entry into a respective account. In the split-circuit structure, this applies to both bankmoney and central bank money. Traditional solid cash (coins, notes) has become a residual technical subset of the bankmoney in circulation, withdrawn from or exchanged back into a bank giro account.<p>Since about the 1920 – 60s, when bankmoney was definitely driving out solid cash in the course of the general dissemination of cashless payment practices, cash has no longer been constitutive of the money system. Cash now represents about 3 – 15% of the stock of money (M1), depending on the country, and a continued declining share in the long run. When referring to broad money aggregates (M2&#x2F;3&#x2F;4 which include, for example, deposit savings and money market fund shares) cash amounts to only 2 – 10%. Accordingly, cash can now largely be excluded from monetary system analysis (in spite of its present role as an effective hindrance to misguided negative interest rate policies of central banks). The means of payment that dominates everything today is bankmoney with its share of 90 – 98% in the entire money supply.<p>[...]<p>---<p>¹ Cf. Financial Accounting Standards Board: FASB Accounting Standards Codification, Topic 305-2011, Cash and Cash Equivalents. The same in US GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles). For a critical assessment see Schemmann, Michael. 2012. Accounting Perversion in Bank Financial Statements. The Root Cause of Financial Crises, IICPA Publications.<p>[...]<p>[...]&quot;
Grollicusalmost 7 years ago
Americans always cry about taxes but then they pay an 8% premium on everything to their payment processor. As long as the money doesn&#x27;t go to the state its okay, right?
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OhHeyItsEalmost 7 years ago
This is good for Bitcoin.<p>[...right?]
TulliusCiceroalmost 7 years ago
Yeah and it&#x27;s obnoxious as hell. When I moved to Munich from the bay area, suddenly having to actively manage cash and coins on a daily basis felt like I&#x27;d stepped through a portal to a few decades ago. So many places being cash-only is very much &quot;WHAT YEAR IS IT??&quot;<p>Some Germans defend it as &quot;well Germans just prefer their privacy&quot; but they still sign up for loyalty card programs and they <i>are</i> adopting cards for payment, just very slowly for how otherwise-developed they are. This isn&#x27;t really a stance borne out of principled concerns, it comes from a general skepticism&#x2F;paranoia of consumer technology&#x2F;innovations.<p>I see the same thing with how many German institutions still rely on mailing physical letters whereas the equivalent American ones switched to emails a decade+ ago. For example, the Grundschule my son will start at next year needed to tell us about an appointment. Did they use an email, perhaps one they gathered from an earlier appointment we&#x27;d had there? Of course not, they mailed a letter, a letter that <i>didn&#x27;t come until the day of the appointment</i>, which they then berated my wife on the phone for missing.<p>Other examples: to create an online account for my health insurance provider, they sent me a code to confirm the account...using an actual letter for the code. Same deal for recharging an Aldi-Talk SIM, you need to have them mail a letter to your address, and then and only then may you pay (via bank transfer). And the websites I&#x27;ve looked at for the Grundschulen (elementary schools) look like they were made by a high schooler in 2006, whereas when I look at ones for school districts for my nephews and nieces in the states, they actually appear reasonably modern. Or when I got photos from people in my son&#x27;s kindergarten, only one person did sending them over a photo&#x2F;file-sharing service, the others were a flash drive, a CD, many emails with one or more photos attached, and also someone just handing me their whole camera.<p>tl;dr Germany is surprisingly backwards when it comes to consumer technology
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xstartupalmost 7 years ago
This seems to be an odd case.<p>At one place we get to hear about &quot;GDPR&quot; and how it&#x27;s &quot;delayed gratification&quot;, &quot;society first&quot;.<p>Then there is this obsession with cash. Where &quot;society first&quot; does not apply.<p>Cashless society can easily track terrorist funding, corruption, illegitimate cash dealings used in trafficking, drug deals etc...<p>This kinda seems hypocritical to me.<p>No wonder Germany is the largest human trafficking country.
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vrexalmost 7 years ago
I noticed this is very weird but I&#x27;m young (in my early 20s) and I only use my card to withdraw money from the ATM. Wherever I go, if it is in a restaurant, a store or the pharmacy I only pay in cash.<p>For me personally it has not just something to do with privacy, for me cash is more real than my debit card. When I shop with cash I spend less money, I know how much money I have to spend the next X days etc. I can never imagine myself not using cash