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4D toys

592 pointsby wenderenalmost 7 years ago

24 comments

rzwitserlootalmost 7 years ago
Here&#x27;s a thought I had watching the bit with 2D man:<p>Actually, the 3D view that 2D man does not understand but which we do understand is... still 2D. My screen is flat.<p>You can use a 2D viewport to render a 3D scene in a way that is natural and easy to understand for us humans: A human watching the 2D scene can very quickly surmise from a glance at the viewport: Which objects are in the scene, and where are they located, in _ALL_ 3 dimensions?<p>This raises the question:<p>Can you render a 4D scene onto a 3D viewport such that us humans are pretty good at understanding where every object in the scene is, in all 4 dimensions?<p>I assume the answer is &#x27;yeah, you can do that&#x27;. I wonder what that would look like.<p>It&#x27;s complicated of course; our eyeballs are involved and they kinda work in 2D and not 3D; where we humans can casually glance at a 2D viewport rendering a 3D scene for a second and know what&#x27;s happening, we&#x27;d have to walk around the 3D screen rendering a 4D scene in order to even see everything.
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throwawaymathalmost 7 years ago
This is an old video [1], but it remains the clearest visual explanation of multiple dimensions that I&#x27;ve ever seen. I really can&#x27;t recommend it highly enough. I think anyone trying to visualize a 4D object will get something out of watching it.<p>I played with the 4D toys app after it showed up on &#x2F;r&#x2F;math a while ago. I like it and I think it&#x27;s useful. My only complaint would be that it&#x27;s a little too open ended. While it&#x27;s nice to provide a simulated tactile experience of four dimensions, I think the app should provide a bit more visual intuition. That&#x27;s one of the things I like about this video. ________________<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=90olwwLdEYg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=90olwwLdEYg</a>
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chubotalmost 7 years ago
Wow, cool to see this here. I&#x27;ve been working on reproducing some of it in numpy&#x2F;matplotlib for the past 2 weeks! I liked their 3D-sliced 120-cell (equivalent of the dodecahedron), and it wasn&#x27;t too difficult to reproduce.<p>Step 1: Use Schlafli generator from here [1]. Schlafli numbers are a compact description of regular polytopes, and there is a recursive algorithm to generate vertices, edges, faces, etc. from them. The base case of the recursion is dimension 1, so you make 4 calls to get to dimension 4.<p>Step 2: Intersect the edges of the polytope with a hyperplane (a 3D subset of 4D).<p>Step 3: You get a set of 3D points out of step 2. Draw the convex hull of them, which gives you triangles.<p>Step 4: Render the triangles somehow. I used matplotlib&#x27;s 3d facilities (mplot3d), and we are working on raytracing them.<p>Step 5: Animate over different hyperplanes. Take the min and max in the w plane and that will give you non-empty slices. Now you can &quot;see&quot; the 4D polytope using time as the 4th dimension.<p>I sure he is doing something more advanced (4D collision detection), but this is all we needed to reproduce something that looks kinda cool.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;aruth2&#x2F;schlafli" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;aruth2&#x2F;schlafli</a>
anotheryoualmost 7 years ago
Can someone help me out here?:<p>I can represent 3D quite comfortably on 2D monitors, can there be an intuitive mapping of 4D to a 3D VR view?<p>I know 3D mapped to 2D suffers from occlusions and heavily relies on clues like perspective, shadow etc. But given enough time even a less intuitive 4D view could become intuitive with time, too.<p>edit: found this: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;S-yRYmdsnGs?t=252" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;S-yRYmdsnGs?t=252</a><p>even better: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;dy_MUfBuq2I" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;dy_MUfBuq2I</a> (turn on subtitles)
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netgustoalmost 7 years ago
There&#x27;s also Miegakure, another beautiful game based on 4D puzzles.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;miegakure.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;miegakure.com&#x2F;</a>
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gertgoemanalmost 7 years ago
Kinda reminds me of &quot;Flatland&quot;: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Flatland" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Flatland</a>
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MAXPOOLalmost 7 years ago
&quot;To deal with hyper-planes in a 14-dimensional space, visualize a 3-D space and say &#x27;fourteen&#x27; to yourself very loudly. Everyone does it.&quot; – Geoffrey Hinton, A geometrical view of perceptrons, <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.coursera.org&#x2F;lecture&#x2F;neural-networks&#x2F;a-geometrical-view-of-perceptrons-6-min-sPEhK" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.coursera.org&#x2F;lecture&#x2F;neural-networks&#x2F;a-geometric...</a><p>* but remember that going from 13D to 14-D creates as much extra complexity as going from 2-D to 3-D
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yuvalr1almost 7 years ago
This is amazing and looks really fun! I remember reading a short science fiction story once, &quot;Mimsy Were the Borogoves&quot;[1], where small children were playing with such 4D toys, which were found to be educative in unpredictable ways.<p>It really makes me want to try it out. I wonder if it&#x27;s really the same without VR.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Mimsy_Were_the_Borogoves" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Mimsy_Were_the_Borogoves</a> (watch out, there are spoilers here!)
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dangalmost 7 years ago
Discussed last year: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14471931" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14471931</a>
tehsaucealmost 7 years ago
If anyone wants to play with a 4D toy right now in their web browser, here is an interactive tesseract (4d cube) that I built. <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;transdimensional.xyz" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;transdimensional.xyz</a> It doesn&#x27;t have physics but features a novel interface that I designed to help build an intuition about different rotations. (There are six axes of rotation in 4 dimensions)
DC-3almost 7 years ago
Using the 4th Dimension, the two interlocking rings can be separated. However, what would be the equivalent puzzle for the 3rd dimension? What 2D system requires the 3rd dimension to be separable? Is there even an equivalent? Clearly a circle within a circle is one such system, but it corresponds to a ball wholly contained by another ball in 3D, not a pair of interlocking rings.
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xtiansimonalmost 7 years ago
How curious. What would a haptic VR experience be like? Does a 4D object still exert mass in the other 3Ds? Could you _intuit_ the other 3Ds even if they were not visible?
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bhoustonalmost 7 years ago
I would have through the he would have done a projection from 4d space to 2d space similar to how 3d graphics does a projection from 3d to 2d. Similar to <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;christopheremoore.net&#x2F;4d-renderer&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;christopheremoore.net&#x2F;4d-renderer&#x2F;</a> It I guess in that case it would be difficult to interact with it in VR.<p>I guess this slicing technique works but it would be a bit weird.
JoeDaDudealmost 7 years ago
Some might remember this excellent treatment of higher dimensions [1] in which you first manipulate shapes to solve a puzzle in 2D, then 3D, and finally 4D. YYou develop a keen sense of 4D objects:<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;harmen.vanderwal.eu&#x2F;hypercube&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;harmen.vanderwal.eu&#x2F;hypercube&#x2F;</a>
beefieldalmost 7 years ago
Agreeably playing with 4d objects is mindboggling enough, but still I would like to somehow visualize myself moving around in 4d space. I am not quite sure how a 4d room would look like and what kind of doors to other 4d rooms would be like, bit for sure navigating around a 4d house could be fun...
rekshawalmost 7 years ago
The video ends saying that trying to fit a 4D cube in a 4D hole is like a child playing with toy blocks. Hypothetically, if a child was raised with regular VR simulations that allowed the child to manipulate 4D objects, would their brain &quot;learn&quot; it and in a way unlock the 4th dimension?
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_Codemonkeyismalmost 7 years ago
&quot;Goundbreaking 4D+Time Physics Engine that uses new mathematics created for this project.&quot;<p>New mathematics no less!
kranneralmost 7 years ago
This passage from Death&#x27;s End by Cixin Liu really gave me pause to stop and wonder about what the experience of seeing extra dimensions might be like (here translated to English by Ken Liu): --<p>A person looking back upon the three-dimensional world from four-dimensional space for the first time realized this right away: He had never seen the world while he was in it. If the three-dimensional world were likened to a picture, all he had seen before was just a narrow view from the side: a line. Only from four-dimensional space could he see the picture as a whole. He would describe it this way: Nothing blocked whatever was placed behind it. Even the interiors of sealed spaces were laid open. This seemed a simple change, but when the world was displayed this way, the visual effect was utterly stunning. When all barriers and concealments were stripped away, and everything was exposed, the amount of information entering the viewer’s eyes was hundreds of millions times greater than when he was in three-dimensional space. The brain could not even process so much information right away.<p>In Morovich and Guan’s eyes, Blue Space was a magnificent, immense painting that had just been unrolled. They could see all the way to the stern, and all the way to the bow; they could see the inside of every cabin and every sealed container in the ship; they could see the liquid flowing through the maze of tubes, and the fiery ball of fusion in the reactor at the stern.... Of course, the rules of perspective remained in operation, and objects far away appeared indistinct, but everything was visible.<p>Given this description, those who had never experienced four-dimensional space might get the wrong impression that they were seeing everything “through” the hull. But no, they were not seeing “through” anything. Everything was laid out in the open, just like when we look at a circle drawn on a piece of paper, we can see the inside of the circle without looking “through” anything. This kind of openness extended to every level, and the hardest part was describing how it applied to solid objects. One could see the interior of solids, such as the bulkheads or a piece of metal or a rock—one could see all the cross sections at once! Morovich and Guan were drowning in a sea of information—all the details of the universe were gathered around them and fighting for their attention in vivid colors.<p>Morovich and Guan had to learn to deal with an entirely novel visual phenomenon: unlimited details. In three-dimensional space, the human visual system dealt with limited details. No matter how complicated the environment or the object, the visible elements were limited. Given enough time, it was always possible to take in most of the details one by one. But when one viewed the three-dimensional world from four-dimensional space, all concealed and hidden details were revealed simultaneously, since three-dimensional objects were laid open at every level. Take a sealed container as an example: One could see not only what was inside, but also the interiors of the objects inside. This boundless disclosure and exposure led to the unlimited details on display.<p>Everything in the ship lay exposed before Morovich and Guan, but even when observing some specific object, such as a cup or a pen, they saw infinite details, and the information received by their visual systems was incalculable. Even a lifetime would not be enough to take in the shape of any one of these objects in four-dimensional space. When an object was revealed at all levels in four-dimensional space, it created in the viewer a vertigo-inducing sensation of depth, like a set of Russian nesting dolls that went on without end. Bounded in a nutshell but counting oneself a king of infinite space was no longer merely a metaphor.
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abhiminatoralmost 7 years ago
This is incredibly cool. I feel this would be super useful for teaching children (like my nephew who&#x27;s 11-years-old) to think about the fourth dimension as a component of the fabric of space instead of time as it&#x27;s usually understood.
beaumaynsalmost 7 years ago
I&#x27;d love to know the math behind the physics engine, particularly angular momentum. Planar rotations are weird in 4d.
eerikkivistikalmost 7 years ago
What tools were used to build this I wonder?
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anxtyinmgmtalmost 7 years ago
This is the best visualization of 4 dimensions I have ever seen.
thelastidiotalmost 7 years ago
Can&#x27;t wait to see the 5D version. But seriously, what&#x27;s the use of that? I don&#x27;t get it.
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csomaralmost 7 years ago
Can this explain some of the quantum weirdness? Like some of the things quantum entanglement have is due to a forth dimension we are not aware of. Might have to do with general relativity and it is the 4th dimension in smaller scales.<p>Now where is my noble price?