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Freeing the Web from the Browser

231 pointsby joesavagealmost 7 years ago

29 comments

oblioalmost 7 years ago
While this is somewhat cool, I have a few comments:<p>&gt; The Web is, without a doubt, the most powerful research tool currently available to man. No longer must researchers comb through endless indices and catalogues to find what they are looking for.<p>True, but most people aren&#x27;t researchers. Heck, I think most people don&#x27;t even know what indices are :)<p>&gt; The vast majority of those interested in a piece of work are merely readers, unable to contribute, only to consume.<p>Guess what, most people, 99% of the time, &quot;consume&quot;.<p>&gt; Billions across the globe rely on the Web to enhance their intellectual capabilities on a daily basis, building understanding through its rich mesh of connections.<p>Not really, billions across the globe check out funny cat pics, play games, watch you-know-what, etc. :)<p>Anyway, what I&#x27;m saying is: it&#x27;s a nice vision of the world and the web, but that&#x27;s not what the world mostly is. Good luck with it, but don&#x27;t expect that a super contributor-friendly media will turn the vast majority of people into constant contributors.
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machiawelicznyalmost 7 years ago
I would love a web where you can comment with your forum circle on any URI available on internet.<p>Eg. I open some research paper and I click &quot;comments&quot; in web browsers. And I see comments from &#x2F;r&#x2F;machinelearning, hackernews etc. Also real time chat would be awesome to have for each of websites.<p>Nowadays it work for me like this - found something interesting X - type &quot;X site:myforum&quot; in google to learn more about it<p>Found a bug, typo, wanna contribute related resource - need to go to github, email author etc. - can&#x27;t just open &quot;comment&quot; on page without comments and contribute :(<p>I think such structure of internet as we have right now relies on google&#x2F;search engines too much when it could be much better organised.
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dcuthbertsonalmost 7 years ago
This looked interesting, so I started reading the author&#x27;s dissertation, but I&#x27;ve been sidetracked&#x2F;put-off by its overbearing copyright statement.<p><pre><code> This copy of the dissertation has been supplied on condition that anyone who consults it is understood to recognise that its copyright rests with its author and that no quotation from the dissertation and no information derived from it may be published without the prior written consent of the author. </code></pre> At least in the US, the fair use clause under the copyright law allows for limited quotes&#x2F;excerpts w&#x2F;o asking permission.
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bastawhizalmost 7 years ago
We almost got there with Pingbacks being the first step. Then they devolved into meaningless spam. Without a system of manual curation, it&#x27;s impossible to build something where _everyone_ contributes. Spam scales easily, and moderation and curation does not. A thousand good links buried under a million spam links don&#x27;t add any value.<p>And we can talk about reputation and proof of stake systems until we&#x27;re blue in the face, but so far, nothing exists that actually works. If it did, we&#x27;d already be using it.
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skadamatalmost 7 years ago
Surprised nobody has mentioned HyperCard - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;gadgets&#x2F;2012&#x2F;05&#x2F;25-years-of-hypercard-the-missing-link-to-the-web&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arstechnica.com&#x2F;gadgets&#x2F;2012&#x2F;05&#x2F;25-years-of-hypercar...</a><p>There was a very compelling vision for the web, by Doug Engelbart and others in the 60&#x27;s and 70&#x27;s. Unfortunately, because of the computing culture&#x27;s attitude of forgetting even the recent history &#x2F; understanding what foundational work was done (like real scientific fields do!), the web folks didn&#x27;t have a lot that context.<p>Alan Kay, in many of his talks, has discussed how the browser should really be more like an operating system kernel. The web is a mess and we can still build interesting things with lots of hacking &amp; engineering, but it&#x27;s fallen short of the original vision. And now we&#x27;re locked into the tooling we&#x27;ve built.
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TuringTestalmost 7 years ago
<i>Most saddening, perhaps, is the way in which the Web constrains the use of links. For example: although the link is the primary form of reference on the Web, underpinning the tangle of connections that make the system so useful, the ability to create new links is a privilege granted only to content producers. The vast majority of those interested in a piece of work are merely readers, unable to contribute, only to consume.</i><p>The sad part is, we already have the technical infrastructure in place to support those user contributions - it&#x27;s the Comments section of any blog-shaped site.<p>So called &quot;Web 2.0&quot; was all about readers contributing feedback to whichever content was being published through a channel. But the shape it took was not the original hypermedia vision, but a conversation of loosely related comments that could potentially go off-topic.<p>To support the annotation feature described in the article, it would just require that common web platforms allowed their current comment systems to attach comments to paragraphs in the article, and show these comments as side notes. Current moderation functions could be used to separate the wheat from the chaff. But it would require readers to adapt and learn to tap this resource to its fullest potential.
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robertkrahn01almost 7 years ago
Great to see those ideas discussed! It is a little strange, however, that Ted Nelsons ideas around Xanadu and its link representations aren&#x27;t even mentioned.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;hMKy52Intac?t=1m44s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;hMKy52Intac?t=1m44s</a>
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ChrisSDalmost 7 years ago
Didn&#x27;t Google used to have a project that allowed readers to annotate the web?<p>If I understand it correctly, it sounds like the author wants something similar only categorised by field of expertise instead of being a free for all (and not owned by one company). This would require some kind of moderation, in one form or anther.<p><i>EDIT</i>: Wikipedia says I was most likely thing of Sidewiki, which wasn&#x27;t actually a wiki: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Google_Sidewiki" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Google_Sidewiki</a>
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tim333almost 7 years ago
&gt;One could imagine a system in which multiple sets of links could be associated with a single resource to accommodate this, allowing for a range of different viewpoints on how things are connected.<p>You can kind of do it yourself by quoting the thing in a public comment eg &quot;Freeing the Web from the Browser&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reinterpretcast.com&#x2F;open-hypermedia" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reinterpretcast.com&#x2F;open-hypermedia</a><p>and then saying it reminds me of whatever eg. the semantic web <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Semantic_Web" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Semantic_Web</a> a bit<p>Then anyone gooling the title may come across stuff like this.
icc97almost 7 years ago
Although this talks about freeing the web from a browser, this seems like a pretty good case for a augmenting the browser experience. The first thing being a browser plugin that ignores all links (which is probably a good default for anyone interested in reading an article and not getting distracted), then it just allows a layer on top for highlighting sections creating your own links. I expect this probably already exists.<p>I think firefox&#x27;s reading mode should have an option to turn off links.<p>The missing step here is connecting to other programs, but this is a first step.
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jerjerjeralmost 7 years ago
The problem I think is that most sites and businesses would be up in arms over this idea. FB wants to have links pointing to other FB pages. Many websites do a lot to prevent user from leaving. How do you plan to overcome this?
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xtfalmost 7 years ago
Most documents are linked regarding the topic. If you go on a math page, you&#x27;ve got math links. Ancient and holy texts could be referenced in multiple ways, because it could be interpreted in multiple ways (or the correct way is unknown), but not something like guides. If a guide is written in more than one meaning, it is not a good guide. Learning should be more seen like a tree, you go down the route of branches and specialize more in the directions of it and the branches lead the references. At the beginning you learn the language, later you know it, otherwise every word needs to be linked.
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Sidthalmost 7 years ago
Great article, thanks for sharing. Of relevance here is TiddlyWiki (www.tiddlywiki.com), a personal note taking tool, that includes some of the salient features, like transclusion and user-generated linking, mentioned in the article. In addition, the approach supports a built-in programming capability to allow computation on content (e.g., dynamic filtering and content generation) and extension via plugins. All information (content and Javascript code) is within a single html document.
dredmorbiusalmost 7 years ago
Joe: some god thoughts, and ideas I&#x27;m seeing from several quartersv and have been thinking about myself.<p>I&#x27;d also like to see a tool that&#x27;s useful for research, a <i>readers&#x27;</i> ans <i>writers&#x27;</i> Web, not merely a consumers&#x27; funnel.<p>I&#x27;ve been lookingat the history of the Web and information in general (guilty pleasure: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.historyofinformation.com&#x2F;index.php" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.historyofinformation.com&#x2F;index.php</a>). Bush, Nelson, TBL. Early browser history, especially Viola, an entire system: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.viola.org" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.viola.org</a> . Plan 9&#x27;s 9p and &#x2F;net: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs#&#x2F;net" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs#&#x2F;net</a> .<p>I&#x27;m thinkinking or possibly presenting the Web as a filesystem, or other forms not typical of contemporary browsers:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;old.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;dredmorbius&#x2F;comments&#x2F;6bgowu&#x2F;what_if_the_web_was_filesystemaccessible&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;old.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;dredmorbius&#x2F;comments&#x2F;6bgowu&#x2F;what_if...</a><p>And I&#x27;ve a long list of concerns, largely referenced in the last link above.<p>Taking a look at your doc.
code_coyotealmost 7 years ago
Comments and feedback won&#x27;t work for a site with a lot of readers or viewers, they don&#x27;t scale. If just 20k people read your post, and one-quarter of them comment, you&#x27;ll be flooded and not able to find anything meaningful. I&#x27;m already following some YT channels where the creator(s) has stated, &quot;we can&#x27;t read the comments, requests here are ignored.&quot;
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tomc1985almost 7 years ago
I had to stop reading after a few paragraphs. His assertion that linking belongs to &quot;content producers&quot; is ludicrous. Those content producers have given users the tools to do linking themselves, and they express themselves in a variety of ways over a variety of mediums.<p>You need to learn how to write to express yourself with written word, yet how many people do we here harping on how difficult it is to learn language?<p>At some point we can draw a line and say, &quot;if you want these abilities you need to learn these things&quot;. We did so with literacy, with driving, and with so many professional trades. We can do so with basic internet literacy.
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einrealistalmost 7 years ago
I don‘t get what the actual problem is and how todays technology is limiting anyone to create something like a link-sharing (e.g. reddit) or link-redirect (hello url shorteners). Of course, if you need control over the content, then you have to build a content management platform, too (centralised or decentralised does not matter). But then you deal with boring copyright and other legal stuff.<p>And hey, browsers do allow extensions nowadays. And if that‘s not enough, build your own.
bb010galmost 7 years ago
This smells a lot like Xanadu.
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echan00almost 7 years ago
Super small feedback, you should put the video at the top of your post.<p>I really dig the commentary btw, maybe its the english sounding voice :)
mertnesvatalmost 7 years ago
It would be awesome if they have social media plugin which µigrates all posts from other platforms into mastadon.
mark_l_watsonalmost 7 years ago
There used to be a browser plugin that allowed users of the plugin to register comments on parts of web pages.<p>In general I like the idea behind the article, of enriching content by allowing readers to add links, but in practice this opens the door for spammers.
achowalmost 7 years ago
For those who are on mobile:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.outline.com&#x2F;hvF3cS" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.outline.com&#x2F;hvF3cS</a>
masukomialmost 7 years ago
did i miss something or does this article COMPLETELY ignore the amazing possibility for abuse this opens up?<p>Now any a-hole can make a public link in your page (or whatever future form that takes)? Nah, no way _that_ could go wrong. The word &quot;abuse&quot; appears literally zero times in the 200 page pdf.
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textmodealmost 7 years ago
&quot;Different people have different perspectives on how information should be connected, so why do we not allow these range of perspectives to be represented and shared digitally? Why limit ourselves to just one point of view?<p>...<p>Why re-create code editors, simulators, spreadsheets, and more in the browser when we already have native programs much better suited to these tasks?&quot;<p>The title is something I contemplated and began to address long ago, only on a personal level.<p>With respect to the first question, perhaps this goes to the poor mechanism promoted by Google, to rank the www&#x27;s contents by &quot;popularity&quot;.<p>This mechanism obviously succeeds for purposes of measuring <i>www user</i> opinion and <i>selling advertising</i> (the later not anticipated by the founders in the early years). However it falls short in the non-commercial context, e.g., the academic setting out of which the company grew. Anyone remember &quot;Knol&quot;?<p>Today Google search (and probably others seeking to emulate its commercial success) intentionally promote a pattern of usage of their cache&#x2F;database where its users never reach &quot;page 2&quot; of search results. The company has built their ad sales business on the idea that <i>one</i> perspective (&quot;the top search result&quot;) should not only prevail but also that, optimally, other results need not even be considered. It should be obvious that in a <i>non-commercial research</i> context, this is not optimal.<p>If the www is 100% commercial then of course this is not an issue. But &quot;the www&quot; is difficult to define. All httpd&#x27;s on any accessible network? All httpd&#x27;s listening on accessible addresses with corresponding ICANN-registered domainnames? All pages crawled by a commercial bot, deposited in a commercial www cache and made accessible to the public? And so on. In any event, if users only view the www&#x27;s supposed contents through the lense of a commercial entity, the perception of what the www actually comprises may be manipulated in a way that suits commercial interests, e.g. the sale of advertising.<p>As to the second question, when given the choice I do not use a popular web browser. The author mentions the utility of &quot;native programs&quot;. I would prefer the term &quot;dedicated programs&quot;. Programs that perform essentially one task, or &quot;do one thing&quot;. Whether such programs can perform their dedicated tasks better than an omnibus-styled program that performs many, varied tasks is a question for the user to decide. For example, the author answers that native programs are &quot;better suited&quot; than the web browser.<p>The &quot;web browser&quot; has become a conglomeration of once dedicated programs.<p>There are such dedicated programs for making TCP connections over which HTTP commands can be sent and www content retrieved. This is a task that web browsers can perform, although some users may prefer a dedicated program. In this way content retrieval can be separated from content consumption, alleviating many of the www annoyances such as user tracking, manipulation and advertising.
thawkinsalmost 7 years ago
Select text, right click, search with google, job done....
ianbickingalmost 7 years ago
We do have a way to create links between two documents without editing either document: create a new document that links to both documents. This is a normal, though informal, activity.<p>And of course simply linking two documents together isn&#x27;t that useful, you have to say WHY they are linked. I.e., the semantic triple (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Semantic_triple" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Semantic_triple</a>) of subject–predicate–object, or maybe more informally you are simply saying X relates to Y because of Z, where Z is akin to the predicate.<p>Currently in HTML hypertext we&#x27;re stuffing Z into the link text, which sometimes works nicely and sometimes works very poorly. But in an external document you have all the space you want to explain the relation between the documents.<p>Obviously there&#x27;s lots of shortcomings of adding a new document to the web to explain every relation between existing documents. But I think it&#x27;s a good starting point. We&#x27;re missing things like:<p>1. Reliable deep linking to documents. We have ids, YouTube timestamps, etc., but finding these is an ad hoc process and they aren&#x27;t always available.<p>2. Widespread transclusion tools. We actually have some now, in the form of link previews or OEmbed. When you post a link in a comment or post on Twitter or Facebook, they effectively transclude the link into the document. Not fully interactive, but it might be a better balance between linking and viewing than traditional&#x2F;literal transclusion.<p>3. Discovery of these annotations or commentary. There&#x27;s a hard CS problem here, to maintain privacy while also trying to find serendipitous results. Maybe it involves pre-loading lists of documents from the locations you want to &quot;discover&quot; from. Maybe it requires some understanding of privacy levels, or whether content is personalized or public. Or we use the technique we have now: lead with commentary, with no attempt to discover it after the fact. I.e., I know there are comments on <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reinterpretcast.com&#x2F;open-hypermedia" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reinterpretcast.com&#x2F;open-hypermedia</a> at <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=17690865" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=17690865</a> because I found the document on <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;news" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;news</a> – is serendipity even a thing in a place as large as the web?<p>4. Maybe publishing tools... do I want to post a Tweet to describe every relation I see? But maybe I do, because even if organic discovery is possible I probably also want to publish a feed of my own annotations, and I want to be part of a community of people doing this, and Twitter is a reasonable example of this.<p>5. Some sort of representation of these links when they&#x27;ve been found. Even without fancy discovery this is necessary. Right now if I click on a link from a post like: &quot;OMG this is the stupidest argument ever: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;example.com&#x2F;some-stupid-document&quot;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;example.com&#x2F;some-stupid-document&quot;</a> it will look like any other page I&#x27;ve opened. Only if I remember well why I clicked on the link will I understand that I&#x27;ve been offered something with derision. The browser has to do something here, all it has currently is the back button to understand why you&#x27;ve gotten somewhere (and that doesn&#x27;t even work consistently in these cases).
LoSboccaccalmost 7 years ago
oh boy it&#x27;s the semantic web all over again. it&#x27;s appalling the lack of citations of the copious corpus that exists and the fact that it&#x27;s never named for what it is.<p>&quot;what is really lacking — in my view — is research considering the human factors at play&quot;<p>there you go, if someone is interested in the topic, some citation back from 2005 which should be enough to find more references and research <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;kmr.nada.kth.se&#x2F;papers&#x2F;SemanticWeb&#x2F;HSW.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;kmr.nada.kth.se&#x2F;papers&#x2F;SemanticWeb&#x2F;HSW.pdf</a> (they even have a workable concept browser, go figure)
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jlebrechalmost 7 years ago
One way would be to create a browser&#x2F;portal(combo) that only indexes webgl&#x2F;wasm apps for example. and you could still visit the info page about that app via a normal browser but would have to install the specific browser.<p>the irony is that walled garden might have a valid use case (not to wall from a vendor, but to wall us from old tech)
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jusa_almost 7 years ago
Every year for the last 25 or 30 I see this kind of thinking about &quot;information processing&quot; show up.<p>What it represents, is a gigantic failure of computer science departments world wide not connecting their theories of information with the department of education&#x27;s theories of information.<p>Most techies who mentally masturbate about how information should be organized and optimally consumed to maximize the production of good outcomes have never heard of the word pedagogy.<p>Without understanding that complex topic, they spend their time busy producing articles and collecting them in libraries that only they can navigate. They do this scratching their head wondering why it isn&#x27;t creating global enlightenment. Ever stuck in some fools quest for a better magical library that will inject wisdom automatically into their heads.<p>After they hear of pedagogy and after they read a couple of text books on how to turn a first grader into a tenth grader they finally understand the difference between a library and school. They then proceed to think up ways of converting the web (a library) into a school. Most of the time not even fully aware what they are attempting.<p>And thats why it always fails. Schools have already been invented. They already exist. They are constantly evolving. And they will always be better than a library at producing information processing in the human mind. Every first grader knows not to walk into a tenth grade class room and try to solve the problem on the board there. Now step back and take a moment to think about why that automatically doesn&#x27;t happen on the web? And what the consequences are of first grader constantly exposed to problems of all sorts of grade levels without any indicator of grade or path to that grade. Naturally these first graders get it into their head there is something very wrong with the web.<p>If you want to &quot;improve the web&quot; understand pedagogy.