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Poland was shockingly liberal during the 1400s

188 pointsby jxubalmost 7 years ago

15 comments

dalbasalalmost 7 years ago
<i>I tended to think Western history had been progressing toward the modern rule of law since the Dark Ages</i><p>History always tells you as much about its author as it does about its subject. That narration is, a sort of british (and american) propoganda from the British colonial era.<p>The way they thought of history (of &quot;Western Civilization&quot;) was (1) The &quot;spark&quot; starts in ancient greece. (2) It is handed Rome, who build inherit the empire (3) Rome falls (ignore the eastern empire) (4) Civilization rekindles in Italy (5) to torch passes to the British who spread it to the world.<p>Everything culminates in the American-British civilization, and whatever British intellectuals thought was important about Britishness. It also plays down Europe&#x27;s (especially western Europe) relatively small part in the history of &quot;civilization&quot; until relatively recently.<p>The narration would be totally different depending on who wrote it.<p>For example, think of it from a Middle Eastern perspective. Alexander&#x27;s conquests would be seen as something akin to Gengis Khan&#x27;s conquest of China. An outsider barbarian that invaded and ruled the Persian empire.<p>That is, Cyrus created a great persian empire. Greeks captured it, and it continued. Rome captured it, and it continued. Then, western rome fell. But, these were mostly barbarian territories with roman outposts. You can&#x27;t compare Roman Brtain to Roman Syria, for example. Syria was urban, literate and civilized. Britain was a barbarian island with some roman roads and forts. High status cultural influence (eg christianity) was imported from east to west, not the reverse.
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wuschelalmost 7 years ago
I agree that Poland - and the east of Europe - seldomly appears in the western history lesson narrative.<p>Poland was liberal for it&#x27;s time, yes, albeit only for the <i>szlachta</i>, a large part of the population that belonged to the privileged class of nobility. Peasants had not so much to gain access these times, especially in the former parts of Poland that are now Ukraine.<p>People of Jewish faith had strong privileges in Poland in the middle ages, which lead to the biggest diaspora in the world, a large fragmented community that was integrated into polish society in various degrees - as can be beautifully seen in the <i>Jewish Museum</i> in Warsaw.
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grzaksalmost 7 years ago
Polish society is still liberal. Please do not think our current government and their actions are representative of what Poles think and support. Majority is at the moment fighting our own government ...
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vectorEQalmost 7 years ago
&quot;I feel like my teachers lied to me. The version of Western history that I was taught in school mostly focused on Spain and Portugal during the 1400s and 1500s, France and Germany in the 1700s and 1800s, Russia and Germany in the 1900s, and Britain during the whole era from the Dark Ages onwards&quot;<p>This beginning.. points to that our history lessons are focused on resnisance &#x2F; reformation times. the &#x27;dark ages&#x27; is all a bunch of nonsense. if you look at islamic &#x2F; african continent, asia and other places you can find actually a lot of history that supports the fact that also in Europe people were not in some dark evil times... that a lot of cultures were sharing (ofc there was also conflict all over the place..) a lot of knowlege and culture with eachother.<p>our dark ages for a lot of other cultures is in the middle of their golden ages...<p>like some cheesy soap series: &quot;the rewrting of history after war by it&#x27;s victors, is a war in itself.&quot;<p>just imagine how often that happened. just look at all the modern activities by governments and how they try to turn and twist things like &#x27;their country is best, and others are shit&#x27; (that&#x27;s the general idea they will try to put on their poplation in any case).<p>if you ask me they just try to hide the fact (by reforming history) to make everyone feel seperated, and opposed. instead of remembering we can share and grow all together.<p>&#x2F;tinfoilhat
barkingalmost 7 years ago
I think it was the black death that effectively killed of feudalism in most of Europe. Wages went up and peasants were in high demand so it became easier to move. The effects of the Black death (1344) were probably being felt in 1400s Europe to at least the extent that WW2 still impacts on us today.
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webrobotsalmost 7 years ago
There was also this interesting phenomenon in 1760-1790s: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Republic_of_Paulava" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Republic_of_Paulava</a><p>This small republic inside the Union had economic freedom for peasants, parliament and voting right, education and medical care system - way ahead of it&#x27;s time.
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pplonski86almost 7 years ago
I think Polish people are very liberal, I live in Podlaskie Voivodeship, we have mix here of Belarusians, Lithuanians, Jews (regions of Tykocin), Tatars (regions of Kruszyniany). Mix of religions Catholics, Orthodox, Judaism, Muslims. It is called cultural crucible.<p>As one of the implications of such mix, we have very tasty food here!<p>I don&#x27;t like all comments about government - it is always easy to complain. Please just do you your job as good as you can and everything will be perfect.
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oym8almost 7 years ago
Author mentions that &quot;Szlachta&quot; are now portrayed as the villains of Polish history without appearing to understand why this is the case.<p>The key to understanding the dysfunction of polish political system at the time is the concept of &quot;Liberum Veto&quot; (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Liberum_veto" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Liberum_veto</a>). Essentially any legislation passed by the Parliament (&quot;Sejm&quot;) had to be passed unanimously.<p>This resulted in nobility securing earmarks and privileges for themselves at every turn and led to anarchy and destabilization of the political system, which culminated in partitioning of Poland between three of its largest neighbors for 123 years.
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pouetpouetalmost 7 years ago
Related: The Lwow School of Mathematics before before WWII <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Lw%C3%B3w_School_of_Mathematics" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Lw%C3%B3w_School_of_Mathematic...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;culture.pl&#x2F;en&#x2F;article&#x2F;maths-madness-and-the-manhattan-project-the-eccentric-lives-of-steinhaus-banach-and-ulam" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;culture.pl&#x2F;en&#x2F;article&#x2F;maths-madness-and-the-manhatta...</a><p>HN discussion <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=16666079" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=16666079</a>
dvfjsdhgfvalmost 7 years ago
When you wonder why Hitler built the concentration camps for Jews in Poland, you can find the answer in the article. For centuries and centuries Jews chased away from Spain and other countries found a safe home in Poland. They enjoyed freedom and were thriving until the nationalists movements started to become pronounced everywhere in Europe in the early 20th century.
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Err_Eekalmost 7 years ago
&gt; The Union of Poland and Lithuania was automatically multi-cultural, <i></i>multi-racial<i></i><p>That&#x27;s seriously stretching the definition of race tho
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psergeantalmost 7 years ago
It shouldn’t be any surprise that the successor to the mighty TURBOSLAV empire was progressive.
shadowtreealmost 7 years ago
The Polish language is interesting as it has just a few Roman&#x2F;Latin influences and did not get reformed in modern times - unlike many other European languages.<p>Poland did not exist for a long stretch of time, 1795-1918, it was partitioned between Prussia, the Habsburg empire and Russia. Poland had provoked those powers with a radical, modern constitution.<p>The Polish language was forbidden, hence only got taught in underground schools, thereby preserving its old nature. Learning it now can drive you crazy due its chaotic &quot;rules&quot;.<p>The partition is also the cause of famous Poles having French names - Frederic Chopin, Marie Curie.<p>The partition and soon to follow WW2, Holocaust and Russian occupation have beaten a fierce paranoia and national identity into modern Poles.
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jlebrechalmost 7 years ago
then this happened <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Battle_of_Vienna" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Battle_of_Vienna</a>
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simula67almost 7 years ago
&gt; under President Trump, who has been willing to build alliances with foreign powers to conspire against his own country.<p>Say what you want about Trump, but he loves his country
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