I propose that we petition Congress to repeal this law:<p>"Tipping again changed in the 1960s, when Congress agreed that workers could receive a lower minimum wage if a portion of their salary came from tips. The minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13, which has not changed in over 20 years, as long as those workers receive at least $7.25 in tips per hour. Saru Jayaraman, author of Behind the Kitchen Door, explains that a minimum wage of $2.13 means that their full wage will go toward taxes and forces tipped workers to live off their tips." [1]<p>[1] <a href="https://www.tripsavvy.com/a-brief-history-of-tipping-1329249" rel="nofollow">https://www.tripsavvy.com/a-brief-history-of-tipping-1329249</a>
I am frustrated with articles like this that keep pushing a higher and higher "acceptable" tip percentage.<p>20% is not normal. 20% is very high for very good service.<p>15 years ago, 15% was normal. Now the minimum on these pos pos's is 18.<p>I tip 15% and no more unless service was well above normal.<p>And I have no qualms about hitting 0 for anything that isn't sit down service, including Uber and Lyft.<p>We have to fight this tip creep or we will live in a world where every service employee is paid with 100% tips by those that feel guilty enough to pay it while all the cheapskates freeload.
Defaults matter.<p>If the 'default' tip on the app is 15% or 20%, then you need to make an affirmative choice to not tip. Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that <i>tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm</i>.<p>Otherwise, why bother setting the default at all rather than force the user to enter an explicit amount every time, like on a restaurant bill?<p>Also, there's a whole subbranch of behavioral economics ('nudge' economics) that basically studies how to frame choices and set defaults to influence decision making [1]. Advertisers and politicians also take advantage of the power of framing and defaults.<p>So getting back to the ethics of the issue, it'd be interesting to see data on how much the default influences the actual tip paid, and how that incentivizes the actual business owner (e.g. set a higher tip rate, pay a lower wage?)<p>[1] <a href="http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/richard.thaler/research/pdf/smartjpe.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/richard.thaler/research/pdf/...</a>
I’m more annoyed about sit down restaurants that automatically add “living wage fees” or “aca coverage costs” to bills <i>before</i> tip.<p>How is this acceptable? What other industry quotes prices that don’t include wage costs, then bill for a higher amount.<p>It’s particularly bad because pulling the percentage out of the tip lowers the percentage of the amount I pay that would go to the server (vs baking the price into the menu cost), so it’s dishonest pricing and also convoluted tip theft.
I hate the tipping system ("tipping") in the US. It's so forced and only benefits the business owner. You should not have to rely on uncertain tips to make up a minimum wage that is just stupid. Both parties keep the system alive, someone has to break the cycle.
The article explicitly addresses SF So this article is about a state which enforces a minimum wage above the US norm for workers in tip-heavy industries. US minimum wage is like $2.15 and federally mandated tip+wage rate is $7.25 and the Californian state wage is $10. This is functionally equivalent to federal minimum plus 30%.<p>I realize the transition moment here is confronting, and with family who work and depend on this class of labour I am completely aware of the immediate pay consequence, but even with this,<p>I think Californians should grab an opportunity to walk off tip culture, and walk into 'fair pay for work' culture.<p>The minimum wage is not fair? Lets support all workers for a fair minimum wage. End tip culture.
These types of systems have pushed me toward carrying cash again. After feeling manipulated and/or guilty by the tip-requesting interface in situations where I would not normally tip or might throw spare change in a jar (vs the several dollars that's being solicited), I now pay in cash. It gives me the control over the transaction that I had previous to the interfaces' existence and I don't leave the situation with negative feelings.
It seems to me that tipping has evolved from an incentive and reward for good service to a form of voluntary workfare where those who have something to spare decide to share with those still struggling in the low end of the service economy.
I am confused as to why it's standard to tip some low-paid workers but not others:<p>* Fast-food workers do just as much work as coffee shop employees, why not tip them?<p>* Workers at clothing stores take the time to fold your clothes nicely and box/bag them for you - why not tip them?<p>* Grocery store checkout clerks in the city carefully bag up your goods so you can carry them with just two hands - why not tip them?<p>* The guy collecting trash from the streets to keep them clean is helping everyone, why not tip him?<p>It does seem at some point the tipping system will grow so large it'll collapse in on itself. Sadly though, places that have tried to move that direction, in NYC at least, seem to have struggled [0][1].<p>[0]: <a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-restaurants-walk-back-no-tipping-policies/482151/" rel="nofollow">https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-res...</a>
[1]: <a href="http://gothamist.com/2017/10/19/danny_meyer_no_tipping.php" rel="nofollow">http://gothamist.com/2017/10/19/danny_meyer_no_tipping.php</a>
I'm convinced that those systems have deliberately be made to push the customer to tip (more) and therefore increase the transaction fee for the payment operator (Square most of the time).<p>Most of the workdays, I go eat lunch at "order at the counter" places. The Square ipad is directly visible to everyone behind me in the line as they can all see that I put "No tip". More than once, I have seen people look back to check if other people in the line would see their choice, and subsequently change it to a "socially acceptable" tip of 15%.
Shifting the burden of paying employees to the customer via guilt and coercion is what's wrong here. Customers should not be made to feel like an asshole for not appreciating seeing their quoted price go up 20%. Lobbying Congress? Start with not supporting dickheads who do this. Charge 20% more and pay your employees properly
Worth noting that California pays a "fair" minimum wage to tipped workers (as opposed to states that pay as little as $2.13/hr to tipped workers)
Where I am there are a lot of restaurants with the Square tablets on a pivot, and what I've noticed is that with fast-food-type places the worker will turn their head away while you enter the tip amount. Or they'll preselect, "no tip"<p>I too am annoyed by the ubiquity of these tip prompts, but the manners haven't changed. (It's been on credit card slips forever.) People shouldn't feel obligated to tip just because, say, it's the owner serving cold brew from his food truck.
It feels like a dark pattern for sure. I tip for service and service only. I regularly hit the no tip button on the new interfaces. I wish I didn’t have to worry about tipping... I miss Uber when it abstracted that away. But alas it only works when they compensate drivers properly.<p>Tipping in general sucks. I feel like most of the time it’s manipulating customers into squeezing a little extra on the top. Just raise your prices.
Was in a restaurant recently, asked for the bill and when it came it already had a 10% tip included in it and a big spiel about how the company wanted to treat their staff right and that if you wanted to opt out, you could... What cheek. Never going back there again and I've spread the word to my friends of mine.<p>I'm UK based by and by. Keep that nonsense in the US.
Amazon Whole Foods delivery is the worst offender in this area. You finish your order and on the confirmation screen they add a tiny little line item for a preselected 10% tip. Suddenly your "free" delivery is now $15.
Lots of fast casual places now have a tip on their screens. I always choose 0.<p>I mean seriously the only interaction I'm having lasted 30 seconds, I'll never see this person again / they won't do anything more for me, no tip needed...<p>I hate tipping as it is (granted I do tip in non fast casual food situations). I'd rather just the cost be up front.
I really don't like how this is moving from just food-service workers to pretty much everything.<p>The #1 reason I liked Uber/Lyft was you didn't have to tip. Then the margins didn't make sense and now they ask for it. I shouldn't have to subsidize those rides with tips because you're not paying the driver enough. Just charge me the price you need to charge me.
In this scenario, especially in SF as a tech worker, you should feel guilty if you can afford to spare a dollar for someone on minimum wage for a tip but are reaching for the zero button. Having the iPad highlight your stingyness is not a problem with the technology.
I live in either NZ, the UK or China, depending on work. None of these have a tipping culture. It's the cultural and psychological aspects that are fascinating, particularly the comments that list proof that in the US, if outlets show real prices, i.e. those that the customer will actually pay, including tax and gratuities, people go elsewhere, to outlets that give a false sense of economy.<p>Personally, I've found that when in the US I felt the food to be cheap, but when I pay the bill, the actual cost to be largely equivalent to other western countries. But, I still harbour the irrational feeling that the US is cheaper, even though the receipts I submit don't reflect this "feeling".<p>Tipping (and non listed taxes) is the 99c cost point writ large. To me it seems, all other considerations (discomfort, worker's rights, fairness, etc.) are overwhelmed by the lower price ticket.<p>Thoughts?
The worst is when I see this at a self-serve frozen yogurt shop.<p>That one really blows my mind. I literally filled the cup with froyo and all the fixins myself. My entire interaction with the employee is placing it on their scale and giving them money. Why would I tip that?
I had thought of something profound today:<p>Within about five minutes, I had walked into a smoothie shop, ordered a drink, paid with a $1 tip, received my drink, and walked out.<p>Pretending for a moment that servers actually get their full tip (they don't), and assuming this person makes $10/hr, then by giving them a one dollar tip for five minutes of service, I effectively doubled their earnings for their five minutes. (Their wage is $1/6 minutes, less after taxes)<p>I received very little service, and nothing outside of what "their job" would entail. In fact, at one point the sever was impatient and made me feel rushed. Tipping is an abomination of a custom.
Related:<p>> A 2009 study by the [NYC] Taxi and Limousine Commission found that gratuities rose after cabbies adopted a credit card system that prompted riders to tip; their tips jumped from an average of about 10 percent when all fares were paid in cash to about 22 percent on card transactions.<p><a href="http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/03/starbucks_square_and_e_payments_do_new_point_of_payment_systems_increase.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/03/star...</a>
Don’t always assume the full tip goes to the employees. At a place I used to work, the employer took 50% of the gratuity charge for all banquets. If you want the employee to get it, tip in cash.
There needs to be a ban and removal of the tipping requirement altogether. I know, easier said than done.
I'm just saying, many European countries do not have tips embedded in their culture, and that's a good thing.
If I go to a sit-down restaurant, I'm already being marked up for that - before tipping.
If I have some food delivered, I'm paying for the delivery service, or I am being marked up on the item's price - before tipping.
By doing that, we ensure that the salaries of employees are legally decent (rather than them counting on unpredictable extras to make ends meet).
This forces the employer not to direct all of the margin into his own pocket while squeezing the employee's salary.<p>I personally have never tipped anyone unless I was excessively well catered for, or someone went out of their way to enhance the experience I was already paying for in the first place.
That's what tipping must be, not forcing the customer to actually compensate for your employees being underpaid. I'm sorry for anyone who has a lower salary than normal because the boss expects that tips will bridge the gap.
If needed, I'm much happier to pay a higher price (relatively). Indeed, I propose that most of the time, the prices are already including all costs and the margin, and that the owners direct the whole margin to them while squeezing the employees out of it and having them rely on tips to make a decent living.
The solution to low salaries is not tipping and guilting people into paying extra cost for no reason whatsoever and for something that's already marked up to the appropriate level, it is better salaries framed by law or contract.
The employees who don't do anything yet think it's right to shame others into tipping them for nothing are the ones who should be ashamed. After accidentally tipping a few times for no reason, I have made it a priority to resist this bullshit. It's not my place as a customer to pay more for no reason just because most jobs in this country pay shit and I'm supposed to feel pity for the employees. Yeah the whole situation sucks and we should eliminate tipping altogether and have a livable minimum wage, but this is one way workers are not going to get sympathy. We can all fight for a proper minimum wage or they can nickel and dime the rest of us into not caring about their situation due to this kind of bullshit. I for one am going to specifically make sure not to tip wherever no service exists and whenever asked to before any service rendered, even if there will be a service rendered. I hope others have enough common sense and character to do the same.
My personal rules are:<p>1) If I pay before I get service (fast food, coffee shop counter, etc), there's no tip. The point of tipping is for service, I'm not pre-tipping you for service you haven't given me yet.<p>2) The vast majority of the time I tip 15%. It's extremely rare I see service that's outstandingly poor or outstandingly good. Most are just average.
It's very difficult to change tipping expectations. Uber unsuccessfully tried to maintain no tipping through its app. After driver complaints[1] and pressure from NYC[2] and others, Uber added tipping.<p>[1] <a href="https://www.wired.com/2016/05/uber-wants-to-save-us-from-racism/" rel="nofollow">https://www.wired.com/2016/05/uber-wants-to-save-us-from-rac...</a><p>[2] <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/nyregion/new-york-city-uber-tipping-app.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/nyregion/new-york-city-ub...</a>
I give credit to the few shops that default to "no tip" — presumably because so little service is involved in their transactions. Of course, it's fine to offer an option to add a tip, which is basically just the digital equivalent of a tip jar. But for the shops where service is minimal, it is appropriate to set the default to be no tip.
Unfortunately tipping is how these employers are legally permitted to pay their employees<p>Removing the tipping without increasing the pay is even more offensive and from my experience is a predominantly tech phenomenon (1)<p>(1) <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17612190" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17612190</a>
I was just coerced.<p>I spent a decent amount of money to get my car detailed, and was presented with a Square app prompting for a tip. I did tip because it felt like not doing so was somehow improper. After thinking about it, I will not do this again.
The tip calculator on these is surprisingly broken in obvious ways. For example, if you order a cup of coffee and merchandise or a bag of beans, it calculates 15% on the entire order. Wtf!
When I was last in the US I noticed that restaurants generally seemed to charge similar amounts to my expensive city (Sydney) but that was before the tip. So is it a lot more profitable to run a restaurant in the US because you essentially offload the labour cost from the meal to the tip but can keep the meal a similar price?<p>Also if its something that is generally always expected to be 20% then why not charge extra and pay your staff normally rather than having this extra layer to potentially mislead diners?
Tipping should be banned completely. It's discriminatory, feeds into the black economy and is f<i></i><i></i><i></i> annoying.<p>Also, its linked to higher rates of corruption:<p><a href="https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/here-tip-prosocial-gratuities-are-linked-corruption" rel="nofollow">https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/h...</a>
Is anyone else occasionally afraid to eat at restaurants if a) the tip is established before the food is made and b) you didn't tip well or at all?<p>I have a friend who tells me horror stories of foul behaviour performed with the food by the chef in these situations.
Guess what, you still don't have to tip if you don't want to. Your "guilt" is your problem, not a problem with the iPad. Anything that increases the takehome pay of low paid service workers in SF seems fine. It is entirely opt in.<p>An article featuring complaints about some of the lowest paid people in SF getting paid a little more because of a new technology lacks some self awareness.
How do you know who gets the tip? Panera used to refuse tips. Now I go in and I'm presented with tip amounts at the point of sale. Who get's that tip? The cashier? The person in back making my food? The person who comes by and busses my table? Or none of the above? Is Panera just pocketing what I'm willing to throw in extra? Maybe it is market research, they figure if I'm willing to tip 20% instead of 15%, then the should charge more for the sandwich?
So many comments here are talking about "defaulting" to tips or to 20% -- but I've never seen that on a Square or Square-type device.<p>It always requires a signature and you have to explicitly press "18%", "20%", "25%" (or similar) or "No tip" button.<p>I would be shocked if I ever saw a tip amount pre-selected for me (unless on a bill for a large party at restaurant, which has been standard for a long time now).