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San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber and Lyft

199 pointsby virticaover 6 years ago

27 comments

quotemstrover 6 years ago
Business permits should be shall-issue: if an applicant adheres to a set of rules known in advance, the city ought to have no power to deny its permit application.<p>Want to limit the number of something? Fine. Auction off medallions or something in a transparent, open way. Don&#x27;t pick and choose businesses the way SF busybodies do.<p>San Francisco has severe and worsening problems primarily due to rampant interference in the operation of the free market. The city keeps doubling down on this interference every time someone, somewhere, tries to find a way around the city&#x27;s thicket of rules.
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throwaway66666over 6 years ago
I recently went south to LA and SD, and the scooters are awesome there. I saw them mostly near the beach, and 0 thrown in the middle of the pavement, none blocking exits or riding them obnoxiously. They even have scooter police that will give you a ticket if you go too fast (I am not saying that as necessarily a good thing, just that they seem to have their stuff together as cities). For the first time I actually made an account and hopped on one of them.<p>However, in SF they overdid it. I don&#x27;t know if SF residents got replaced by a bunch of self-entitled nerdy manchildren, but holy hell they were obnoxious. You would see 5-6 of them blocking the entrance to a restaurant (at anchorsteam brewery tap room especially). Thrown down in the middle of the pavement. People riding them on the sidewalk yelling &quot;GOTTA GO FAST&quot;, going somewhat fast (at least have some dignity and dress like Sonic the hedgehog if you &#x27;re gonna do that). Think of an 80s action movie where the punks or hell&#x27;s angels type of gangs run amok in the city, but it&#x27;s dudes wearing startup t-shirts on electric scooters instead. Anyway, I &#x27;m not a nimby but their presence in SF really left a sour taste.<p>But after seeing them in LA and San Diego I am convinced they can work super nicely if a little bit of common sense is applied. Maybe the SF populous is early adopters and jumped on the latest trend with too much passion, or maybe those companies put on the streets too many units. I don&#x27;t know, but it can be done right and I &#x27;d really like to see them back.
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androver 6 years ago
SFMTA has published the detailed feedback[1] and summary ratings[2] for each petition. Although the actual applications are not published, it really looks like Bird did a poor job on paper. For example, most of the companies relied on swipe-through screens in apps to remind people to use helmets, which the SFMTA deems insufficient. I have to agree, as I have rarely seen someone on a scooter with a helmet.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sfmta.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;reports-and-documents&#x2F;2018&#x2F;08&#x2F;sfmta_scooter_applicant_response_letters_08.30.2018.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sfmta.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;reports-and-docume...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sfmta.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;reports-and-documents&#x2F;2018&#x2F;08&#x2F;application_rating_summary_table_08.320.2018.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sfmta.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;reports-and-docume...</a><p>Also, note that Scoot already has an arrangement with the city for the red electric mopeds they rent out.
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WisNorCanover 6 years ago
I generally away from regulation, but let me articulate the pro-regulation argument.<p>Markets that are important (like transportation) and have network effects need to be regulated. A monopoly with Uber and&#x2F;or Lyft dominating local transportation is not good for consumers or cities in the long-term.<p>Cities should take control of their transportation and ensure competition by managing allocation of capacity. I think the best parallel is managing of spectrum in telecom to ensure competition.
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throwaway4Laterover 6 years ago
Interviewed with Scoot last month on Howard St.<p>The entire experience felt like a Monty Python interview- engineers driven on a death march to get their stuff done and interview an endless stream of qualified candidates, all the while management isn&#x27;t ready to hire, but still bringing on a torrent of candidates.<p>The interviewing process was one of the most disorganized and chaotic I&#x27;ve ever gone through. Pair programming exercises scheduled without working computers, that kind of thing.<p>I never wish any company to fail, but...
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salawatover 6 years ago
Considering San Fran is already famous for hilariously spiteful and terrible zoning&#x2F;real estate development practices, it isn&#x27;t exactly surprising. Are the companies who got permits local? That may have factored into it.<p>Also, considering the sheer hatred these companies and their business model inspire in me, I can&#x27;t say it doesn&#x27;t fill me with glee.
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Felzover 6 years ago
Is a license for 2500 scooters worth much, startup wise? Pulling numbers from this:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;13-notes&#x2F;unit-economics-of-the-bird-scooters-f1c971a31574" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;13-notes&#x2F;unit-economics-of-the-bird-scoot...</a><p>To maintain a presence of 2500 scooters for a year, you&#x27;d need 2500 * (365 days &#x2F; 50 days (scooter lifespan)) = 18.2k scooters. That&#x27;s 18.2k * $600 (lifetime cost) = $10.9 million in capital.<p>Each of these scooters generating $14 in revenue a day is $12.7 million in revenue a year, for a profit of $1.8 million and a 16% return on capital. If we assume a San Francisco quota was rolled out to the entire country, that&#x27;d be (325 million &#x2F; 880k) * 1.8 million = $664 million in profit, at best.
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afriday11over 6 years ago
Can we just ban cars in SF while we are at it?<p>People drive them with a vengeance, clutter up the streets while they are in parking mode, and are a general eyesore.
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djrogersover 6 years ago
This really comes off as spiteful and childish. Bird and Lime didn&#x27;t come kiss the ring before daring to provide services to the residents of San Francisco, so they get kicked to the curb in favor of a couple of companies who&#x27;s timing hadn&#x27;t yet angered the City.
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neonateover 6 years ago
<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;DbXBe" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;DbXBe</a>
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jtokophover 6 years ago
Scoot and Skip will receive buy out offers from all 4 companies very soon then.
oh-kumudoover 6 years ago
Seems like the Scooter is not popular and only useful for a niche segment of the population.<p>The bike sharing business has caused a hazard in places like China, because of the unrestricted dumping. So there is definitely a point that government needs to chime in and do some stuff.
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incadenzaover 6 years ago
I’m confused. My sense is that the approach here should have been to put forward a set of regulations and enforcement, and then open up the market. If one of the companies violates the rules, then obviously ban them.
vermontdevilover 6 years ago
Interesting. Both Bird and Lime were recently approved to come back in Indianapolis after being asked to leave. The council wanted to re-evaluate the whole concept and set up some rules, fees, etc.<p>Then they allowed these two companies to return. [1]<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.indystar.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;news&#x2F;2018&#x2F;08&#x2F;28&#x2F;dockless-electric-scooters-return-indianapolis-september-4&#x2F;1040280002&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.indystar.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;news&#x2F;2018&#x2F;08&#x2F;28&#x2F;dockless-elec...</a>
jonthepirateover 6 years ago
Can anybody name two companies which are about to get acquired? Anybody at all?
bfungover 6 years ago
Thank you SF. Too many scooters littered on too many corners of streets - makes walking near places like hospitals quite the hazard. The litters don&#x27;t seem to care since they&#x27;re not in the area.
avivover 6 years ago
Not to worry, these companies that were left out will be let in next year once they pony up the correct bribe amount to the relevant decision maker.
onetimemanytimeover 6 years ago
So they want only x number of scooters in the streets. Fine, but the bureaucrats are picking winners, when they should let the consumers choose.
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fippleover 6 years ago
Uber and Lime will but Skip and Scoot this month.
singularity2001over 6 years ago
Is that good because of less monopolization?
tzsover 6 years ago
One reason it might make sense to have a service like this provided by just a two or three companies in a given city instead of a large number is verification and enforcement of safety regulations such as requirements that the companies keep the scooters well maintained.<p>Two ways come to mind for a city to verify that a company is handling such things properly.<p>First, the city can have auditors regularly examine the internal operations of the company, talk to employees, and review consumer feedback.<p>Second, the city can pull a random sample of the company&#x27;s scooters off the street and have city mechanics inspect them.<p>The number of scooters you have to examine from a company to determine if it is meeting maintenance requirements depends on the margin of error that you are willing to accept, not on the number of scooters in that company&#x27;s fleet. Let&#x27;s say you need to examine 50 scooters to get the desired margin of error.<p>Suppose are going to allow 5000 scooters in your city. If you do that with two companies, 2500 each, and you audit annually, you&#x27;ll be doing each year two audits of the facilities and employees, and checking 100 scooters (50 from each company).<p>If instead you have that same 5000 scooters, but now provided by 10 companies, you&#x27;ll be doing 10 facility and employee audits, and checking 500 scooters.<p>So same number of scooters on the street in both cases, but about 5 times the administrative costs to the city in the 10 company case is in the 2 company case.<p>Also, if consumers need a different app for each scooter company, a smaller number of companies will probably serve consumers better. Again, take a city with 5000 total scooters. If those were supplied be two companies, evenly split, then a consumer would only need two apps to have complete coverage. A consumer with only one of the apps would still have a decent change of being able to find a scooter in a reasonable time frame.<p>If that 5000 were split among 10 companies, a consumer with only one app would only have a pool of 500 scooters available. If those ended up spread out around the city it would be hard for a one app consumer to find a nearby scooter. If that company concentrated in one smaller area that could solve that problem...but then the consumer would probably end up needing the apps of several others, too, to find scooters when they are in other parts of the city.<p>There is going to be some optimum number of scooter companies for a given city and total fleet size which balances things. Lower numbers are more convenient and usable by consumers, and cost less to regulate and verify, but higher numbers have more competition which might lower prices.<p>My guess...and it is just a guess...is that three would be about right for most reasonably large cities.
sigfubarover 6 years ago
Electric scooters are a public menace. Good riddance!
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alexnewmanover 6 years ago
What’s the paywall strategy here
jshap70over 6 years ago
off topic, but does anyone else find the name for Lime weird considering there&#x27;s already something in the tech space with the same name?
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pgnasover 6 years ago
The mafia was taken down in Chicago because it was providing something that was desired by the people, people who should be in control of their own lives and will ultimately be responsible for the decisions that they make, freedom. Unfortunately, the powers that be did not see it that way, you can argue that Al Capone was taken down for tax evasion, I don&#x27;t care, this is how he was convicted,one has nothing to do with the other.<p>Al Capone was taken down because he had more power than that of the government. These companies are being shut down because they are not willing to pay the shakedown money by the city mafia.<p>We need to take this country back and until you people do not understand this, you will remain slaves. I almost believe that this is what you want..<p>I do not. This is NOT what this country was built upon and changing this, being OK with this will eventually lead to the destruction of our country, which, before that happens, will be a civil war.
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yumrajover 6 years ago
I&#x27;d love to be proven wrong, only future will tell, but this seems to be yet another fad being funded by free money from VCs. In fact the only winner in all of this are the manufacturers who are making these scooters.<p>According to <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qz.com&#x2F;1257198&#x2F;xiaomi-makes-the-bird-and-spin-scooters-taking-over-san-francisco&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qz.com&#x2F;1257198&#x2F;xiaomi-makes-the-bird-and-spin-scoote...</a> at least Bird and Spin are using Xiomi scooters. Lime is also made overseas, read China. So, this is nothing but Silicon Valley VC money, actually their LP&#x27;s money, moving to China.
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pfischover 6 years ago
Where is the startup that creates mods for these scooters so they operate for free?<p>Or the startup that opens a chop shop for disassembling all these abandoned scooters and sells the parts?<p>Seriously though these scooter permits sound corrupt, or have the potential for massive corruption.
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