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Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them

322 pointsby robertwiblinover 6 years ago

26 comments

chrisseatonover 6 years ago
This is very interesting!<p>But I&#x27;ve seen a lot of push back against this kind of thinking in some political groups. For example saying that you should follow norms of niceness when promoting a cause - people call that tone policing.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Tone_policing" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Tone_policing</a><p>You could say you should criticise the people who are tone policing rather than the people who are worked up about a cause that personally effects them so aren&#x27;t managing to be very polite, but the problem is not the people who try to tone police you, it&#x27;s the people who don&#x27;t like your tone and don&#x27;t criticise you for it - they silently just ignore your cause or vote against it.
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lbrinerover 6 years ago
The bit I struggled with is that in many fields, either the majority are wrong&#x2F;don&#x27;t have the solution (Argumentum ad populum) or otherwise listening to expertise&#x2F;experience can either give you too much input or, again, implies that there is more chance that experience will give you a better solution to a problem. In their example, if Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis had asked his more experienced peers about approaching the problem of infections, they would have told him he was barking up the wrong tree with hand washing.<p>The really difficult part of any venture is knowing <i>how</i> to distinguish wise advice from just another opinion.<p>Many great solutions come from people with &quot;crazy&quot; thinking and I would expect they could have caused great damage (or perhaps have - jet engines) but otherwise we would be moving very slowly as a planet?
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mcguireover 6 years ago
There are a couple of other issues that could be added to this list.<p>Credit<p>One of the sayings that I know to be (mostly) absolutely true is, &quot;there is no limit to what you can accomplish if you don&#x27;t care who gets the credit.&quot; I have a (much more successful, and respected) friend to whom it is something of a mantra.<p>On the other side, seeking credit has a lot of pitfalls. The obvious one is taking credit for someone else&#x27;s work; that&#x27;s just bad and leads to bad results. But further, by aggressively taking credit for things you&#x27;ve done, you can actively force other people out of the field you&#x27;re working on. Has anyone been bitten by the off-handed, &quot;yeah, we took a look that several years ago&quot; comment?<p>Further, becoming the face of some project means that you with all of your warts hanging out come to represent the project and its goals. Take care.<p>Goals<p>Choose the goals of your project carefully. For one thing, they can take on a life of their own. On one hand, our modern financial services system has the excellent goal of allocating resources where they can do the most good, but they have become so complex as to be a maze with great freakin&#x27; bear traps all over the place.<p>Then there&#x27;s opportunity cost. Some goals are laudable, but take on too much emphasis at the expense of other, more reachable, more effective goals. Take the &quot;reducing extinction risk&quot; mentioned (repeatedly) in the article. Sure, somebody should probably worry a bit about the risk of human extinction, but...<p>&quot;<i>Many experts who study these issues estimate that the total chance of human extinction in the next century is between 1 and 20%.</i><p>&quot;<i>For instance, an informal poll in 2008 at a conference on catastrophic risks found they believe it’s pretty likely we’ll face a catastrophe that kills over a billion people, and estimate a 19% chance of extinction before 2100.</i>&quot;<p>The risks they came up with are, molecular nanotech weapons, nanotech accidents, superintelligent AI, wars, nuclear wars, nuclear terrorism, engineered pandemics, and natural pandemics. (I&#x27;m surprised; global warming didn&#x27;t make the list in 2008.)<p>Here&#x27;s the dealy-o, though: what <i>actually</i> is the risk of human extinction before 2100? 19%? (1 in 5, really?) Their conservative 3%?<p>&quot;Nanotech&quot; currently is at most an OSHA problem. (Don&#x27;t breathe in the microparticles!) The risk of &quot;grey goo&quot; is likely pretty damn low, given the history of the last 30 years of nanotechnology. (First thought on hearing of the possibility of nano-machines? &quot;Ya mean, like proteins?&quot;)<p>Conventional wars don&#x27;t actually kill that many people; they tend to disperse too easily. I&#x27;m even given to understand that the effect of major wars is an increase in the rate of population growth. Nuclear weapons, on the other hand, are very, very bad...for cities. But they&#x27;re unlikely to do anything noticeable to people in sub-Saharan Africa, South America, the Australian outback, or Mongolia.<p>Pandemics have been a problem before, they&#x27;ll be a problem again, but I&#x27;ll let somebody else describe the problems with an infectious agent capable of killing <i>all</i> of its hosts. Likewise, climate changes have been problems before, and have led to bad outcomes. But killing everyone isn&#x27;t ever been on the table. And for AI, I&#x27;m more concerned with the AI that runs your car off the road because it&#x27;s not actually able to perceive the lane markers.<p>Individually, each of those is bad. They&#x27;ll possibly kill billions of people and possibly lead to the collapse of civilizations---some of them have done so before. But complete extinction is incredibly unlikely and &quot;ending all life on Earth&quot; is just silly.<p>But human extinction is an issue that will get attention. It&#x27;ll sell newspapers. And more than some minimal level of resources spent on it means less resources for other issues. Like, say, identifying and addressing actual problems with nanomaterials or wars or infectious agents.
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kineticdialover 6 years ago
I feel weirdly (perhaps irrationally) about the effective altruism people including 80,000 hours. I just can&#x27;t shake the cult-y vibes they give off. Am I alone in this?
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Johnny555over 6 years ago
<i>Imagine a first year medical student who comes across a seriously injured pedestrian on a busy street, announces that they know first aid, and provides care on their own...but imagine that a passerby who was about to call an ambulance refrained because the student showed up and took charge</i><p>Then he&#x27;s not following his first aid training. One of the first things they taught in my first aid class is to send someone for help first -- find someone in the crowd and tell them specifically to call 911. Don&#x27;t just tell the crowd in general to call for help or everyone may assume someone else is doing it, direct someone in particular to call.
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superplussedover 6 years ago
There is a German word for this: verschlimmbessern. This roughly translates in English to &quot;imworsenprove&quot;. :)
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blackflame7000over 6 years ago
Because the desire to do a good deed causes people to discount the ramifications of detrimental effects by rationalizing with the “it was for the best” adage
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ThomPeteover 6 years ago
A good example of that is Germany.<p>They removed Nuclear from their energy sources and now need to use coal instead to compensate.<p>But it gets better than that.<p>Denmark focused primarily on wind energy with the consequence that this summers heatwave resulted in them having to get their energy from Germany who now without Nuclear had to use even more coal.
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motohagiographyover 6 years ago
The article seems written in a &quot;gentle reminder,&quot; tone that implies a basic attribution error about the sort of people they are reminding. As a corollary to a famous adage, I would suggest that it is best not to attribute to ignorance what can be explained by incentives.
hinkleyover 6 years ago
One that has gotten me and some of my cohort is the idea that if you have a below average income you have to live in an ugly run down neighborhood.<p>But a few too many beautification projects and property taxes start to go up. Now you’re pricing people out of their neighborhood. With renters they don’t even get the benefit of selling their house.<p>Most of the solutions I can think of could be easily gamed by speculators, which makes me wonder if the others just have a flaw I don’t see.
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FrankyHollywoodover 6 years ago
This is an old problem :) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Cobra_effect" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Cobra_effect</a>
philipodonnellover 6 years ago
&gt; Everyone understands that one risk of failure is that it tarnishes your reputation. But, unfortunately, people will sometimes decide that your mistakes reflect on your field as a whole. This means that messing up can also set back other people in your field.<p>I find this to be the case with non-profits and others attempting to make big pushes to promote local entrepreneurship. I have objected to several attempts based on the organizers focusing on the wants of donors (not the entrepreneurs), lacking any marketing plan beyond &quot;if you build it they will come&quot; and not having long-term plans for sustainability. Every failed attempt sets back the next one by 2-3 years but no one wants to listen to a naysayer.
xtacyover 6 years ago
Interesting article, but I would have loved it if they touched upon how to effectively follow these principles in a world where there&#x27;s competition. For instance, getting feedback, thoroughly vetting ideas, etc., is a good practice. But if you are competing against those who exploit the limited attention of investors&#x2F;peers to quickly get ahead (in the short term), they _could_ get an enormous first-mover advantage. How does one deal with that?
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yellowappleover 6 years ago
&quot;Imagine a first year medical student who comes across a seriously injured pedestrian on a busy street, announces that they know first aid, and provides care on their own. They’ll look as though they’re helping. But imagine that a passerby who was about to call an ambulance refrained because the student showed up and took charge. In that case, the counterfactual may actually have been better medical care at the hands of an experienced doctor, making their apparent help an illusion.&quot;<p>I think this is a poor analogy. Or maybe it&#x27;s an excellent analogy for the dilemma the article glosses over: would the &quot;right&quot; answer be for the medical student to <i>not</i> help someone very obviously in need? Ambulances don&#x27;t materialize instantaneously out of thin air, nor do they magically teleport themselves (and the patient inside) to a hospital. That hospital might be overcrowded, delaying treatment further.<p>Or the med student could actually try to help (or at least triage) and at the same time call an ambulance.
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drchiuover 6 years ago
I think a lot of this boils down to having the right amount of introspection and insight on the part of the individual.
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pbhjpbhjover 6 years ago
Well I read a bit, then thought &quot;things like being verbose, generic, and over-guarded in offering advice and so wasting lots of readers time without making an impact on their behaviour&quot;?<p>If they&#x27;d given one direct piece of easily actionable advice the actual impact might have been far larger ...<p>&quot;So what?&quot; - a Church sermon I heard well over decade ago, the speaker said basically if there&#x27;s nothing that listeners will remember and act on then your sermon is moot. You can give a tonne of great advice, but sometimes less is more impactful.<p>Perhaps they do that to. The title gave me high hopes.
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makachover 6 years ago
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
techscruggsover 6 years ago
The medical field has a term for this: iatrogenic.
jackconnorover 6 years ago
The moral seems to be &quot;Don&#x27;t do anything, because there are always too many risks, many of which aren&#x27;t obvious.&quot; If we followed this, nothing would ever get invented or done, and we&#x27;d still be hunter gatherers, so I&#x27;m not really feeling it.
bjt2n3904over 6 years ago
Naturally a pessimist on these issues. Listening to graduation speeches on how we&#x27;re gonna change the world, as if it were this one weird tip discovered by a student. (Philosophers hate him!)<p>Bleh. You&#x27;ll change the world alright. Likely, not for the better.
rapfariaover 6 years ago
That is not a good favicon, I was skimming for a list of &#x27;8 ways people trying to do good&#x27;.
ameliusover 6 years ago
&gt; Ways people trying to do good accidentally do harm instead and how to avoid them<p>Like Facebook engineers?
ElBartoover 6 years ago
To do good requires understanding the issue at hand and devising a measurable plan for improvement.<p>This is not what many, if not most people do, or want to do, when they &quot;try to do good&quot;. They simply want to do something based on what _they_ see as &#x27;good&#x27;.
SOMMSover 6 years ago
Socialism. &#x2F;thread
apathyover 6 years ago
You’ll never get anything done if you give in to this sort of analysis paralysis.
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anjcover 6 years ago
Thanks. You use the word &#x27;field&#x27; 54 times and &#x27;risk&#x27; 33 times in the article but never explain what you mean by them. I found this confusing. E.g. at one point you say that &#x27;reducing extinction risk&#x27; is a field, but then later say that not every risk is pressing in every field. Is &#x27;reducing extinction risk&#x27; both a field and a risk?
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