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Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines

596 pointsby stargraveover 6 years ago

40 comments

brobdingnagiansover 6 years ago
&gt; The way we do this, rather than ordering people to be kind or else, is try to help people learn to make their communication more kind.<p>This is excellent; using love and persuasion to help someone improve is so much better than by force, compulsion, and fear. How many children rebel against restrictive and domineering parents? but a child who is loved and taught, but allowed to make choices and pursue independence usually ends up much healthier and happier.<p>&gt;I disagree with making &quot;diversity&quot; a goal. If the developers in a specific free software project do not include demographic D, I don&#x27;t think that the lack of them as a problem that requires action; there is no need to scramble desperately to recruit some Ds. &gt;Rather, the problem is that if we make demographic D feel unwelcome, we lose out on possible contributors. And very likely also others that are not in demographic D.<p>This dovetails in so nicely as well. You get more bees with honey than vinegar, and it is better to make a project open, kind, mentor-friendly, and productive-- which furthers the industriousness and quality of a product. Let all come who desire to come and treat them in the spirit of kindness and co-operation, but giving no preference or overt recruitment campaigns, which in themselves could end up sidelining or diverting attention from the true aims of the project.<p>I don&#x27;t always agree with Stallman, but I think this is a magnificent and well-thought out plan and response.
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ekianjoover 6 years ago
&gt; Please assume other participants are posting in good faith, even if you disagree with what they say. When people present code or text as their own work, please accept it as their work. Please do not criticize people for wrongs that you only speculate they may have done; stick to what they actually say and actually do.<p>That&#x27;s a breath of fresh air. There&#x27;s always someone who tries to read between the lines and strawman people for what they did not say&#x2F;express. Keeping the benefit of the doubt is always a more charitable (and peaceful) way for conversations to take place.
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Millenniumover 6 years ago
This is interesting, but I have to say I&#x27;m skeptical that it&#x27;ll do any better than the Linux kernel community&#x27;s attempt to apply Wheaton&#x27;s Law back in 2015.<p>The geek community was largely formed by people who had been unfairly targeted by those who enforce social norms: picking inappropriate targets, taking things to inappropriate extremes, and the like. Our response was to create a community that didn&#x27;t enforce social norms at all -Geek Social Fallacy #1, essentially- and a lot of beautiful things came from that. We changed the world for the better in a lot of ways, precisely because we refused to reject people just because they acted in ways that went against the social norm.<p>But there was a problem: some behaviors really shouldn&#x27;t be accepted, and some people really won&#x27;t change without the application of force. Unlike the people who first formed the geek communities -people we should all aspire to be like- this second group was fairly ostracized: appropriate targets, appropriate measures. They came to our community, not precisely for support, but for enablers; having been rejected from everywhere else, they fled to a group that refused to reject anybody. And that&#x27;s exactly what we did, if not always enthusiastically. It&#x27;s hard to find a geek circle without at least one of Those Geeks: the kind who drag things down and ruin things for everyone, but people feel a duty to put up with their crap because that&#x27;s what it means to be a geek. They continue to abuse us and play us, for exactly this reason. And they aren&#x27;t going to change unless they are forced to. Some of them won&#x27;t change even then, but you do what you have to do.<p>And that&#x27;s the problem with the kernel&#x27;s old code of conduct, and with these &quot;Kind Communication Guidelines&quot;. They&#x27;re a step in the right direction, because they spell out unacceptable behaviors. But because they don&#x27;t spell out clear and consistent consequences for those behaviors, creepers gonna creep. You might catch a few mild cases, and that&#x27;s not insignificant, but the mild cases aren&#x27;t at the core of the problem, so the needle isn&#x27;t going to move much.<p>I know only too well how hard it is to lay down the law against someone who is abusing your goodwill, especially when they&#x27;re valued for other reasons, and most of all when it feels so much like they&#x27;re &quot;just a little more extreme&quot; than most. It&#x27;s a horribly painful thing to have to do -if you haven&#x27;t had to do it before, it hurts just as much as you might imagine, if not even worse- and I can&#x27;t blame people for being reluctant to do that. But this is how you induce change in the hardcore. Guidelines like this can serve as decent warning that real change is coming, but they don&#x27;t bring about that change themselves.<p>Still, this is a step in the right direction. It&#x27;s at least an acknowledgment that there are norms, and they are to be observed. But it&#x27;s not going to be the magic pill. There simply is none.
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civodulover 6 years ago
As co-maintainer of GNU Guix, I want to point out that the views expressed in Richard Stallman&#x27;s message are his and not those of the Guix maintainers.<p>In particular, by writing that codes of conduct are &quot;punitive spirit&quot;, RMS shows a misunderstanding of how these texts came into existence.<p>More importantly, by writing that he disagrees with &quot;making diversity a goal&quot;, RMS seems to deny the role we free software people play in the demographics of our communities.<p>Many of us in Guix (and I think I can speak for my fellow Guix co-maintainer here) believe that free software should empower everyone. As such, correcting the biases, conscious or not, that have led to the poor diversity of our communities, must be part of our mission.
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TotempaaltJover 6 years ago
&gt; Rather than trying to have the last word, look for the times when there is no need to reply, perhaps because you already made the relevant point clear enough. If you know something about the game of Go, this analogy might clarify that: when the opponent&#x27;s move is not strong enough to require a direct response, it is advantageous to give it none and instead move elsewhere.<p>I love this analogy of why not responding might be your best option.
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marijnover 6 years ago
While it sounds very reasonable, friendly, and non-authoritarian, a big problem with an approach like this, without real teeth or rigidity, is that it is very easy to harass people out of a community while staying within its constraints, and provides very little recourse for those being harassed (who often are not in a position of power) to put on pressure for getting something done about it.<p>The approach taken largely ignores the discussion that&#x27;s been going on about this topic, and sounds pretty naive, if not willfully passive.
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binaryapparatusover 6 years ago
Being politically correct vs getting the job done, I&#x27;ll always choose getting the job done. There is plenty or role playing projects where your feeling matter more than your skills. In last couple of jobs I am always asking about company policy, if they start piling about diversity and getting everybody heard and how everybody&#x27;s feelings are most important thing, I don&#x27;t want to work there.<p>Earn your place with your quality and your skills, not with the help of inventing newer and newer rules until nobody can say how crappy, sub average and difficult to work with you are.<p>(Talking to a random programmer with no skills but huge area of possible butt-hurt).<p>Edit: btw can&#x27;t agree more with Stallman if that&#x27;s not clear from my post. Love that guy.
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wpietriover 6 years ago
On the one hand, I&#x27;m glad that he&#x27;s at least acknowledging that this is a problem. It&#x27;s disappointing to me that he talks about the problem as if people first noticed it in August, when I&#x27;ve heard it discussed for a decade or more. But still, baby steps.<p>There&#x27;s also a crashing lack of self-awareness here. This bit sounds great: &quot;The only political positions that the GNU Project endorses are (1) that users should have control of their own computing (for instance, through free software) and (2) supporting basic human rights in computing.&quot;<p>But a) that&#x27;s a very political position, b) many people in the diversity and inclusion world see it as a direct consequence of basic human rights, and c) I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s consistent with Stallman&#x27;s behavior. E.g., it was only in May he declared it important to keep a stale joke about American politics in the code: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theregister.co.uk&#x2F;2018&#x2F;05&#x2F;09&#x2F;gnu_glic_abort_stallman&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theregister.co.uk&#x2F;2018&#x2F;05&#x2F;09&#x2F;gnu_glic_abort_stal...</a>
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hprotagonistover 6 years ago
This is a remarkably sane and cogent approach.<p>His point about CoCs failing to encourage behavior “above and beyond” the rules is well made, and i hadn’t thought about that side of Goodheart’s Law in this setting before.
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DannyB2over 6 years ago
What seems to be lacking is a viral clause so that when you &#x27;be excellent to each other&#x27; the others are also required to abide by the same code of conduct.
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VictorSCushmanover 6 years ago
&gt; The idea of the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines is to start guiding people towards kinder communication at a point well before one would even think of saying, &quot;You are breaking the rules.&quot;<p>I really like this. I think it&#x27;ll help the community become a more welcoming place overall without needing to view politeness as a rule set. I see this as an overall benefit to the GNU project, as well as to OSS as a whole.
JulianMorrisonover 6 years ago
When people are arguing for &quot;diversity&quot; what they are meaning, generally, is &quot;there is already an enormous thumb on the scales, this can be shown empirically by outcomes&quot;. So to the extent Stallman&#x27;s intent is to take the thumb <i>off</i> the scales and make everyone welcome, it is very reasonable.<p>That said, I think he&#x27;s wrong to devalue quota type approaches, because in some circumstances, particularly institutional ones in business and government, those are a very effective way to force a noncompliant culture to take its thumb off the scales.
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avarover 6 years ago
Side note: This is the first E-Mail I&#x27;ve seen from Stallman in over 4 years that hasn&#x27;t started with his usual boilerplate:<p><pre><code> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden&#x27;s example. ]]] </code></pre> See e.g. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.gnu.org&#x2F;archive&#x2F;html&#x2F;emacs-devel&#x2F;2018-10&#x2F;msg00293.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.gnu.org&#x2F;archive&#x2F;html&#x2F;emacs-devel&#x2F;2018-10&#x2F;msg00...</a> (just picked his latest on emacs-devel) for an example.
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x220over 6 years ago
I think this is a good approach, since these guidelines seem to arise out of compassion and wanting to make both the disrespectful contributors and the people they disrespect better communicators, and make the community better as a whole. In contrast I get the sense that most CoCs I read are motivated by a desire to punish people who make you feel bad.
joshuamortonover 6 years ago
So, I read through the list of guidelines, and while I have some minor quibbles with them, overall they seem fine and reasonable.<p>But what happens if someone refuses to be kind? What happens if that person is a major contributor? What would happen if, in some strange alternate reality, Linux was a GNU project, and Linus-of-2012 said he&#x27;d really rather not care about all this politeness nonsense, and would prefer to continue on the way he was?<p>The problem I see with your bees&#x2F;honey comment is that there is no commitment here from the maintainers and leaders of the project. This is just a more verbose &quot;Be kind to each other&quot;, but without any commitment from the leadership of the project to actually maintain a kind, welcoming environment.<p>A non-committal claim to be kind may be honey, but its on a flytrap, and many people recognize this.
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davidkellisover 6 years ago
This seems to be a verbose restatement of the Golden Rule - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Golden_Rule" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Golden_Rule</a> - that one is taught as a child.
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brickmortover 6 years ago
This is much. much more reasonable than the &quot;Post-Meritocracy&quot; Code of Conduct.
microtherionover 6 years ago
Clearly RMS believes in having software licenses with teeth, which is why he so strongly advocates the GPL over the BSD and MIT licenses. When he disagreed with Apple&#x27;s stance on IP litigation, he didn&#x27;t just exhort them to be excellent — he boycotted them for several years. So it&#x27;s not that RMS is strongly opposed to coercive enforcement; he just doesn&#x27;t value people as highly as he does code.
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a-dubover 6 years ago
I like it. It captures the best spirit of the CoC stuff while also explicitly calling out and avoiding the parts of existing attempts at this stuff that some perceive to be aggressive.<p>Can basically be summed up as: 1) Everyone is welcome, 2) Don&#x27;t scare people away by being shitty and 3) Keep it on-topic<p>But it seems that the discussion here misses the absolute best part. In true GNU fashion, Stallman refuses to accept grammatically incorrect use of pronouns and instead offers a brand spanking new extension built on a homegrown abstraction.<p>Here comes _GNU_ENGLISH!
allannienhuisover 6 years ago
&gt; Please don&#x27;t argue unceasingly for your preferred course of action when a decision for some other course has already been made. That tends to block the activity&#x27;s progress.<p>I&#x27;ve seen this so many times in non-oss work too. Why do some people have such a hard time letting go? Even more so for Open Source projects - If you care _that_ much about your ideas - fork and move on; otherwise spend you and your co-contributors time advancing the project in other ways.
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Waterluvianover 6 years ago
I&#x27;ve been experimenting with the idea that good code&#x2F;design&#x2F;whatever technical is RARELY more important than good work environment and professional relationships. My intuition tells me that you&#x27;ll end up with a worse off product being developed more slowly if you focus on good code at all costs. That&#x27;s not to say you should become a team that focuses on feelings.<p>I had a manager once entirely shut down code reviews because he felt it was hurting people&#x27;s feelings. There&#x27;s a right balance to strike and I really don&#x27;t think that was it.<p>My thought is that when you&#x27;re somewhere near that balance and aren&#x27;t sure, lean towards good relationships, over good code. This generally happens at the moment when I have to decide just how nitpicky I should be about something, often minor.<p>The problem is that I&#x27;m no industry veteran. I don&#x27;t have a lot of experience or hard facts to back this idea. But I just &quot;feel&quot; that it might be true.
jancsikaover 6 years ago
Linus: I&#x27;m taking time off and getting help from people who are (probably) trained to understand people&#x27;s emotions.<p>RMS: Armed only with email archives, I generated a novel solution from inside my own head and tested it against feedback arriving back to my own head from a smattering of individuals.<p>What every happened to, &quot;Gee, I don&#x27;t know the answer to that question. Perhaps I should ask an expert for help.&quot;
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bitcynthover 6 years ago
I do agree with this trend, while there are some comments like &quot;we just want to get the work done and not worry about being nice&quot; I do think they are forgetting about a certain part. I as a developer might not contribute to certain open source projects due to the fear of being called things against my gender identity (I am transgender) or being yelled at. And the thing is that I am not getting paid or anything to do it, so instead I am just not going to contribute because I don&#x27;t want to try to help and instead be yelled at. I think that the free and open source software community is moving in the right direction by making code of conducts or other similar things.
mark_l_watsonover 6 years ago
Well said. I think Richard Stallman got this just right.<p>I know he is specifically talking about making everyone feel welcome in FSF development communities, and, I think what he says also applies to the business of writing software, starting companies, forming community groups, etc. Our industry has some problems of un-kind and sometime illegal behavior. By encouraging people to use kind communication and be inclusive, then all reasonable people win.<p>If someone in your environment is disrespectful of someone it seems lighter and more likely to succeed to point out that they are being un-kind rather than breaking a rule.
methehackover 6 years ago
A question for the folks who would like to do more than just communicate in a way that welcomed all demographics -- how would so-called &quot;demographic quotas&quot; work in practice?<p>It may well be my lack of imagination, but I&#x27;m having trouble imagining an outcome based approach that still allowed progress on projects to continue.<p>Also, if such an approach could be articulated, would it be incompatible with this code of conduct?
guardian5xover 6 years ago
I&#x27;m very glad that there seems to be change in the community, and also that Linus is doing some self-reflection. He is a role model for many in his position, and some people in discussions started to take his behavior as an excuse to have bad manners themselves and that it is ok to be rude to others.
yosefzeevover 6 years ago
To me, the answer has more to do with discerning the spirit of the conversation rather than adopting any particular protocol. There will always be some joker somewhere that will violate the rules that one adopts in such a way that debate is created that causes a system to self-destruct.
usrusrover 6 years ago
&gt; Please avoid statements about the presumed typical desires, capabilities or actions of some demographic group. They can offend people in that group<p>You can tell a programmer&#x27;s writing by how closely that rule dodges recursing upon itself.
LiterallyDogeover 6 years ago
Is it really this complicated to treat other people with respect?
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phoe-krkover 6 years ago
<i>A code of conduct states rules, with punishments for anyone that violates them. It is the heavy-handed way of teaching people to behave differently, and since it only comes into action when people do something against the rules, it doesn&#x27;t try to teach people to do better than what the rules require. To be sure, the appointed maintainer(s) of a GNU package can, if necessary, tell a contributor to go away; but we do not want to need to have recourse to that.</i><p>That is the paragraph that captures the essence of the CoC issues for me. A CoC seems to be used as a weapon for killing those that do not abide by its rules, not as a tool for teaching each other to be awesome to each other.<p>Edit: I also love how each paragraph in the guidelines starts with &quot;please&quot;. It&#x27;s such a different approach than the one taken in CoC: &quot;please do this or that for everyone&#x27;s benefit&quot; rather than &quot;do this and that or you&#x27;ll be judged by the appropriate judging organ&quot;.<p>We lack this kind of gentleness in the world of raging wars between pro-CoC people and anti-CoC people.
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s73v3r_over 6 years ago
&quot;Rather, the problem is that if we make demographic D feel unwelcome, we lose out on possible contributors. And very likely also others that are not in demographic D.&quot;<p>I think that hits the nail on the head as to why a lot of these initiatives are a good thing: If you make things more welcoming overall, more people of all walks of life feel more likely to contribute.
funkythingsover 6 years ago
&gt; In August, a discussion started among GNU package maintainers about the problem that GNU development often pushes women away<p>I&#x27;m not trying to offend people or anything, but where is the evidence for this in GNU specifically?
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fossdevover 6 years ago
Diversity as a <i>goal</i> is fundamentally flawed. It is what leads to policies like &quot;affirmative action&quot; which are in themselves simply a form of reverse discrimination.
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M_Bakhtiariover 6 years ago
&gt; For instance, call them by the names they use, and honor their preferences about their gender identity<p>That&#x27;s a backhanded way of cementing the validity of the concept of &quot;gender expression&quot; throughout the GNU project.<p>I would have been perfectly on board with a guideline that simply said not to police people&#x27;s gender expressions, the question being rather off-topic and disruptive in the given context. That would do the job regardless of what your political opinions on the gender question are.
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Nickersfover 6 years ago
Well the social justice team wins again. We&#x27;re not talking about writing code, instead we&#x27;re talking about identity politics. These people need to hear more &quot;NO!&quot;
ajpikulover 6 years ago
Fantastic!
jaydestroover 6 years ago
this reads childish and stupid. what a terrible way to say you don&#x27;t agree with change.
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interfixusover 6 years ago
A CoC in any other name is still a CoC.<p>A very thin end of a wedge is stil the end of a wedge.
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dijitover 6 years ago
1) I hate this trend<p>2) I like that he acknowledges the criticisms against the trend and attempts to get to the root of the issue rather than &quot;agreeing&quot; with one of the polarised sides. (Anti-CoC&#x2F;Pro-CoC people).<p>It&#x27;s nice to have guidelines, they&#x27;re less aggressive than whips. Hopefully this is enough to appease both sides.<p>EDIT: please criticise my points. If you have something to say, don&#x27;t hide behind the downvote button.
lgleasonover 6 years ago
Long term I expect to see the quality of GNU and Linux software falter over efforts like this. This is not because I don&#x27;t advocate for treating other people well, on the contrary I do. It is because in practice these are politically motivated trojan horses meant to tear down things like a meritocracy, the very thing that created this great software.<p>I&#x27;ve personally watched the activists pushing these target women and other under-represented minorities using these documents for the crime of disagreeing with the narrative.<p>IE: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@marlene.jaeckel&#x2F;the-empress-has-no-clothes-the-dark-underbelly-of-women-who-code-and-google-women-techmakers-723be27a45df" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@marlene.jaeckel&#x2F;the-empress-has-no-cloth...</a><p>I fully expect to see purges happen of talented individuals based on politically motivated targeting etc. with secret tribunals where the accused are guilty until proven innocent etc.. It&#x27;s happened to people like Larry Garfield of Drupal, the Opalgate crew tried to do it to a guy who dared to express his conservative views on Twitter in a personal capacity etc..
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