Ask HN: I built it, "they" didn't come...

<i>My projects are mostly based on features that are missing or misimplemented in the existing products.</i><p>This is your first problem. First, <i>features do not sell software</i>. If there were a Ten Commandments of customer acquisition in the Internet age that would be #2 right after "Google is your god, you shall have no others." People use software and use websites because of the benefit that you credibly propose to bring to their lives through use of the software. Ironically, your users are even telling you this, which is fantastic because most of the time they <i>don't</i> have accurate insight into why your site doesn't do it for them. (Incidentally, "I don't know what problem you're solving" really means "I don't know what problem THAT I ACTUALLY HAVE will get better instantly if I sign up for this.")<p>StackOverflow is <i>incredibly</i> more complicated than Facebook is. You need an accurate mental model of how the game works in order to play it. (Seeing answers is easier, of course.) There is a reason Joel and company try to seed new Stack Overflow sites with people who have used one of the pre-existing ones. (That also helps solve the chicken and egg problem, which I suspect your sites are likely suffering from in a severe fashion.)<p>Early adopters are a quirky bunch. One of their problems is that other people are cooler than they are because those people have technology that they haven't used yet. Another of their problems is that the software they previously liked is now lame because even their mother uses it. Most people do not have these problems.<p>Talk to people. Find out what their pains, fears, frustrations are. This is <i>not hard</i> -- most people <i>love</i> to talk about what they hate about their life, jobs, etc. Identify problems which are tractable with software. Develop the smallest possible thing that shows the vision of a solution. See if it 'clicks' with people. If it clicks, you know you have a viable idea for a product. If not, development is generally expensive guessing.<p>P.S. Translation from user into English: "It's too complicated" =&#62; "I am insufficiently invested in this to do the work that it looks like it is going to take to extract the unknown amount of value I may get out." There are a number of solutions: simplification, hiding the complexity, easing the users into the complexity, and <i>demonstrating higher value</i>. Your user can play effing <i>bridge</i>, she is clearly capable of understanding complex systems when the spirit moves her.

I have learnt a lot on HN over the last years. But after a point I have realized that following the actual good advices and trends will not help me, because everybody will follow those advices/trends so that I will always be competing in an oversaturated market: most likely I will fail.<p>I've realized that I can bravely bet against at least some of the trends. Based on my built things and their failures I started to find out the things which are overrated. In my opinion webapps are overrated, internet consumer market is overrated (or at least too risky for small startups), mobile apps are overrated (kind of a 'trash market' a bit), Javascript is overrated, importance of graphical design is overrated, simplicity and usability is overrated (I mean if you are talented, you can get it right quite easily, but you will never be able to create a business just because of simplicity, usability, etc...)<p>What things are not overrated?<p>- 'Build what people pay a lot for'<p>- At least partially solve really-really painful, fustrating, important problems of not only natural persons but also (mostly) companies.<p>- The enterprise market is very very important. Big companies are not sexy, but they pay a lot for software if they need software.<p>- Jack of all trade-ness is overrated. I try to gain experience in at least one or two really hard topics, which few people know.<p>I will see how it turns out. I never say never though. I try to be flexible; and act upon opportunities. Felxibility is not overrated.

"I've been in the "build-&#62;launch-&#62;move to next project" loop for some time."<p>You seemed to have missed the "guilt everyone you know into using your product" phase. I've met very few startup founders that didn't fight tooth-and-nail for every single early user. You have to do whatever it takes to get those users on board. It won't be scalable, but you can worry about scaling user acquisition later, after you've gotten some feedback.

You need to accurately identify a "problem that needs to be solved" in a niche that is not crowded.<p>Nowadays, things need to look great. Some people partner or pay for programmers, you need to partner with or pay for good design. Don't skimp.<p>Every single chance you have in your product, convey the problem that you are solving, how you are solving it and importantly who you are solving it for. Look at 37Signals as an example. I think they spend 25% - 50% of their time thinking about the message they are conveying throughout their product - not just through their marketing sites.<p>Never (never, never, never) expect people to use your product or service. Get the word out fast, hard and often. Unless you get lucky (never count on luck), this will cost you money in one form or another. The amount of money you'll need to spend directly relates to the competition in the niche you are operating in.<p>Listen and pivot. When your customers / users tell you something, listen to them. Don't assume that you're the smartest guy in the world and "know what they want before they want it". Listen and even if you don't believe in it, try moving in the direction that your customers / users want. If income increases, pivot your business or entire model in that direction.<p>Never (ever) get married to an idea and remember that business is about making money.<p>Don't judge yourself against others. Every business, every person, every circumstance is unique. Constantly review your product or service but evaluate it against your own metrics. Don't ignore what others are doing, but if your product is successful earning $25k per year, it is successful.<p>Keep your chin up and do not give up. It sounds cliche, but the worst mistake someone can make is to give in to the part of themselves that drags them down. If something isn't working, change it and be happy, excited and motivated to make yet another change in a long line of changes.

Look at Apple. So many competitors have sprung up based on features that are missing in the existing products. Apple still win the consumers.<p>It's more than adding features to a product.<p>I suspect Facebook is easy to use because people can see the benefit in learning how to use it. They can see how tagging an image is a cool thing, so they'll make the effort. If they can't immediately see how upvoting a question is a cool thing, they won't bother to understand how to use it.

First off, your user is not you. ;) Something that's instantaneously understandable, and clearly better to you (tagging) isn't necessarily so for others (apart from "multiple categories per item", I still don't get why everyone loves tags).<p>Obviously you can get quality feedback. Iterate on that. If it's not clear what problem you are solving, you just <i>tell them</i>. There's no shame in writing "This is a listings page, add a listing HERE" in 80px black bold Arial on top of the page, if it makes people use it ;)<p>As long as people can find you on search engines, they will come. But from there on, you have to guide them to use your service instead of expecting them to do all the work.

<i>My projects are mostly based on features that are missing or misimplemented in the existing products.</i><p>Actually, that's not too far off from a suggestion Paul Graham made at the first Startup School a few years ago, in his "Ideas for Startups" speech (<a href="http://paulgraham.com/ideas.html" rel="nofollow">http://paulgraham.com/ideas.html</a>):<p><i>One way to make something people want is to look at stuff people use now that's broken.</i><p>There's a big difference, though, between <i>missing</i> or <i>misimplemented</i> and <i>broken</i>.<p>If it's misimplemented, but basically does what I need it to do, then I'm not as open to an alternative.<p>If it's broken, then I'll seek out another product or a third-party plugin.

It sounds like you think your users are stupid. They gave you specific feedback and WTF comes across as you being annoyed, instead of glad to get the feedback.<p>Stackoverflow is targeted at geeks- if you're cloning their design, you need to clone the target audience as well. .net development != women's issues.

Focus on the SMALLEST problem you are solving. People don't join facebook to upload gazillions of photos, or message their friends each second. They join because they need a way to contact people without tracking down email addresses. Then they upload a photo because it's kinda cool, then they get hooked on the ecosystem. But that comes later. DON'T SELL THE ECOSYSTEM TO NEW USERS. Sell a small solution (which doesn't have to be anything too special), then let them scale their behavior up. The ecosystem is what makes you rich, but it's not what get's the first few logins. The whole ecosystem just confuses new users.<p>Oh, and remember, there are lots of people who don't even know what a URL is. SO worked because lots of JoS / Coding horror readers trusted it enough. They also know what tagging is - most of your readers are more familiar with phpbb style indexes. Nobody looks at the tag cloud unless they have already know what they are looking for.

Well, short of the rapture, stray quantum string (TNG reference +1), or the great luddite awakening, chances are "they" are still out "there" in the physical/individual sense. Sounds like you're not going "there".<p>Think about the products that "go viral". I think there is an increasing trend for these to have roots in the real world. Twitter didn't succeed until real people in the real world met in a real bar at a real conference and really talked about it. I didn't start using it until a real person I knew was talking to me at a real place after going to SXSW. Same story on Facebook. Real people in my real world had a real conversation with me about it.<p>My advice - make your product opaque. I know it's 2010, but your product needs to be "real" for "them". Find some target end users, get them using it, and enable them to broadcast their use/enjoyment/etc.

What problems <i>are</i> your products trying to solve?<p>Why don't you list a few here, and maybe we can help you refine your pitch.

I built <a href="http://isshort.com" rel="nofollow">http://isshort.com</a> because I wanted to promote healthy link shortening, and created an API so that Twitter clients can use it. I promoted it on reddit, HN, techstartu.ps, Quora (in response to a question) and by emailing the people who were an inspiration for it (simon wilson, the people responsible for rev=canonical and rel=shortlink).<p>I've been completely unable to gain traction for isshort.com, with 43 visits to the site in about 5 days.

When you look at how apple has succeed, it's the way of the future. They didn't provide any new functionality that wasn't on mobile devices before. They just made it simple, it's the new paradigm, design is now more important than functionality.<p>I'm am not an apple fan, mind you, I am an Android dev who built a podcasting app - and most of the complaints I get are "I can't figure it out" and "why is it so complicated". It <i>is</i> overloaded with features and some appreciate it, but some don't.<p>The way I think of it, is that life is frustrating at times, and people will go to great lengths to avoid that feeling of frustration. Software might do a lot but if it not quick to use then its pretty well useless. In time gone by, how many man hours been wasted trying to find that elusive checkbox in windows to fix a certain small problem.<p>Simplicity is the most important thing, people want life to be simple - why can't it be simple !!! That's why apple is making billions.<p>There is always an element of randomness though. To some people a design (e.g. my podcasting app) will seem logical, but to others it will be a frustrating mess. I am happy to have a set of users who are fairly tech capable. but I do constantly receive a hail of abuse from the less capable who really want to use it, but cant figure it out. Some people actively resent the fact that I have made them feel stupid (Saying exactly "I am not stupid", had that exact phrase about 30 times I think).<p>Sometimes I think 3 interfaces to a product are necessary, "simple"(only basic stuff), "cool" (medium), and "super"(everything). Different people like different things.

problems I see with what you've said:<p><i>&#62;&#62;I've been in the "build-&#62;launch-&#62;move to next project" loop for some time.</i><p>From my experience making a few apps, launching is just the first step, not the last. People will care about products you care about. If you're just building stuff to throw out onto the internetz and hope a few randos latch on... well, that's exactly what you'll get. If you want dedicated users who keep coming back, you'll have to steadily improve your projects, and nurture them into full-fledged awesome products. There are no shortcuts, what you put in is what you get out (usually).<p>Also, the original idea is almost never perfect. Products evolve over time, flickr didn't start as a photo site. Listen to you customers, but not too much, find the problems that REALLY need solving. Like Henry Ford said, "if I listened to the customers, I would have made a faster horse." What he really means that the customers wanted faster transportation, not necessarily a horse. You need that insight to see what the core problems are, and solve them in novel ways.<p><i>&#62;&#62;I lack visual design skills, but yet trying to do my best to provide a usable UI for the products. One of my motives in building a product against my lack of visual skills is knowing that "they started as crap too".</i><p>That is not good enough. Knowing you suck at UX is a good start. But justifying it by calling out reddit, twitter, and stumbleupon? That's just naive. You want to know what made them succeed? THEY GOT BETTER. They didn't sit on their ass saying "well, those other guys suck, so I can too." No, they were the ones saying "I'll endlessly strive to make my product better every single day."<p>Software adopts the personality of the developer(s). Users can tell when the developer actually loves and cares about something enough to follow through with good support and updates. Similarly, users want software that gets to the <i>core</i> of their problems, not just shallow complaints, which brings me to my next point:<p><i>&#62;&#62;My projects are mostly based on features that are missing or misimplemented in the existing products.</i><p>Do NOT base your software on a feature. Features are shallow, like breast implants. Build VISION and PERSONALITY into your software, and people will love you even if you're flat-chested. Again, this goes back to UX/UI and taking care of your product and helping it evolve a personality AFTER launch.

Me too. I blogged about it the other day, in a fashion: <a href="http://www.adrianoconnor.net/2010/10/the-bad-news-about-your-amazing-product-you-still-need-to-do-marketing/" rel="nofollow">http://www.adrianoconnor.net/2010/10/the-bad-news-about-your...</a><p>I believe there are two highly valuable skills you need to run a successful business: 1. The ability to create amazing products (either yourself or through motivating others) and 2. Ability to get your message out and get people interested.<p>I fail badly at #2. I guess I need to find a partner who is naturally magnetic and can sell dreams to people. The thing is, once you're over that hump you'll get momentum -- you can ask for feedback, you can engage with those people, and, hopefully, they'll hep you spread the word. Alternatively, you can throw ad-dollars at it and work on the conversion rate, but advertising is mostly owned by people with lots of money so you'll drown before you manage to even start swimming.

"they" usually don't come.

We had someone talking about a similar situation a few days ago. Being able to produce a product is nice but it won't sell itself by merely existing. "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" If you release a product and no one knows will anyone buy it?

On this point: "it's too complicated, there's no order"<p>An important element of useablility that is often ignored and misunderstood is familarity. In many ways it just does not matter that MSWindows or Facebook is clunky, or violates important useability or is just wrong or broken. When the environment hits a critial mass of familarity the only way to co-exist with an entrenched community is compatibility. As galling as it is to use a windows file picker look &#38; feel, it's what folks are familar. Changing the visual paradigms does happen (review the history of the web) but fairly quicky a new normalicy (see web pulldown bars) gets established. Show some examples and/or look for a design partner.

First, I'm 100% convinced that design does not sell the product. It some instances it is very important, but in other instances it is not.<p>I'm using many confusing and ugly products but since they solve my problem, I use them (all HA software product on market, etc.).<p>I believe the key to solve something people really need. Hey I still have problems how to do code reviews (for cheap - like $10 per seat) - something like google wave but code reviews.<p>Now, there is also problem how to get your message out and get people interested (since they might not know they have a problem you are solving). I was told to watch infomercials on TV and try to make something like that on your home page, blogs, forums...

"And admit that the waters around you have grown, and accept it that soon you'll be drenched to the bone. If your time to you is worth savin', then you better start swimmin' or you'll sink like a stone, for the times they are a-changin'."

You seem to have a pretty good idea of your own shortcomings — which is a good sign imo, nobody can or should be good at everything — so why not play to your strengths and partner with someone else for the design work?<p>I've been doing small self-generated projects with 1-2 partners for years. One of them is gaining traction and about to take off in a big way (I hope). I never would have got to this stage on my own.<p>Note that having a partner isn't the same as selling out, or developing a project with an overmanaged 12-person team, etc. It's pretty much the same as going it alone but with a friend to bounce shit off of.

Those specific users may be gone forever. But there are always more users, and there are always more markets. Don't worry too much about it. And I wouldn't worry about your visual design skills either. As you pointed out, the internet is littered with ugly but successful sites.<p>I do, however, recommend that you worry about that pesky "i didn't understand which problem you are solving" issue.<p>My advice would be to shut down your computer and talk to your friends and family. Go to dinner. Tag along with them in the grocery store. Even better... do something with them that you enjoy. And then listen to what's going on in their lives. What challenges are they facing? What challenges are you facing?<p>Start making a list of these things. You don't even have to write them down, but make mental notes of the things people struggle with. Every time you come across a challenge, think "could a computer help with this problem?" If the answer is yes, then think "how hard would it be to engineer?" If the answer is "not too hard for me to knock out a prototype in a week or two" then add this to another list in your head: promising ideas.<p>You'll need a lot of them. I have a list of about a hundred products that I think I could build in a week that solve a problem that I or someone I know cares about.<p>With that list, start thinking about the ideas in more detail. Think about some of the implementation details in your head. Maybe spend a few hours starting to implement some of the trickier parts of them to get a sense of how har they'd really be. Think about how you could make money off of them.<p>Notice which ideas keep popping into your head. Notice which ideas make you excited when you think about how they would feel to have built. Notice which ideas come up over and over.<p>You need to be doing this all the time.<p>Start telling people about your more promising ideas. Pitch to your friends, your family, your coworkers, strangers you meet at parties. Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. Any feedback you get at this stage is worth much more than the risk of losing an idea you have barely invested in. There's always another, better idea down the road.<p>Notice the difference between mild enthusiasm and genuine enthusiasm. "That sounds great!" doesn't mean much. "I need that! You should build that!" means a lot more. "I told my friend about your idea and they want it too!" means the most. If you find an idea that is already spreading before you've even built the site, that's a good sign.<p>Once you start to have ideas that a) solve a problem several people care about, b) are something you can implement, c) seem like they could make some money, d) excite and spread through your friends, and d) keep coming back into your head, that's when you should start implementing them more seriously. Write a 1-2 week minimum viable product.<p>I really think that if you do this kind of exploration process, you'll have a much stronger footing to stand on with your products. It's much faster to play with the idea in this way than it is to make a prototype, and you need to evaluate hundreds or thousands of ideas before you find a good one, so stick to this kind of fast evaluation process. Save prototyping for ideas that have already been vetted.

When you mentioned reddit, it got me thinking. When I first saw it, I didn't just think "I will use this".<p>I actually thought: "man, I want this to succeed, it would be awesome if they could pull it off, it is obvious that such a thing will work only if they have some initial users, so I'll use it for a week and hope that it gets enough momentum".<p>I can't really pin it down what prompted that initial reaction, but it was somehow more than it being useful. It could be the minimalist design or the way the developers sounded, I just wanted to help them.

&#62;<i>"I got the following feedback several times: 'it's too complicated, there's no order, no title in threads, other forums(phpbb style) are better' "</i><p>People come to "BBS's" for the content of the discussions. The software needs to extend that content or enhance the community. For many purposes, off the shelf packages are probably sufficient. If your users want phpbb features, then using phpbb is the way to go.

If your users are telling you that they can't see what problem you're solving it's very probable that you really aren't solving any of the problems you think they have. Also you probably also underestimate the need for goodlooking visuals and good usability. This things are paramount if you want to get some sort of traction. Why not include someone with design sensibilities on this projects of yours?

Try answering these questions:<p>Who is 'they' ? How many are "they" ? right now , where are "they"? Do you know even one of the "they"?<p>Ahh, its so much easier to give advise . If it makes you feel any better, I am also trying to find my version of "they".<p>In the meanwhile, get Steve Blank's Epiphany book and keep reading and applying until you have found the "they".<p>Good Luck !!

Do (or did) you personally use the things you've created?<p>Testing &#38; dev doesn't count. Are you passionate user #1?

The thing is, you need to make the users come to you. Marketing and perseverance are what make start ups successful. You can have a brilliant product, but unless you convince people it adds value to their lives, they won't come.

maybe you're discounting the importance of luck...<p>somehow society just decides your thing is cool. like when there's 5 equal products and one is successful for no particular reason.<p>i always think about how weird bars are. you can 2 equal bars but 1 is packed every night... even with zero distinguishing differences. society just says 'oh that bar usually has people, let's go there'.<p>the problem may not be the product but figuring out how to convince people it's the cool _______ to use.

It could be that you just need to stick with it longer. If you are not out of funds, keep refining your product and trying to market it. Thats what I would do.

What does your product actually do? Does it solve a critical problem? Have you done any customer development?

"Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." --Oscar Wilde

&#62; I even deployed a localized copy of cnprog as a forum on women's issues<p>Stackoverflow is designed for tech-savvy people.<p>You can't just make assumptions about what your users want/need/know. You actually have to listen to feedback. If your response to feedback is "WTF", well that explains why you don't have many users.<p>It also means you didn't really build 'it'; you built the wrong thing and you don't want to fix it.<p>btw, usability &#62; visual appeal.