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NIST's answer to “Do you need a blockchain?”

357 pointsby alanfranzover 6 years ago

31 comments

Derek_MKover 6 years ago
Don't forget the first step "Do you not really care about the technology and just want to write a webapp that gets mad investor money?" and an arrow that goes straight to "Yes"
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zellynover 6 years ago
You can do merkle-tree-signing and other clever things with cryptography to provide auditability without needing any kind of distributed consensus via proof of work/stake/etc. so I think the flowchart could have a couple more "No" branches.
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ballenfover 6 years ago
In talking to a few companies who thought they wanted a blockchain, one big misconception is that blockchain will magically solve the interoperability issue where multiple parties have data in disparate formats.<p>Blockchain doesn&#x27;t inherently do any data translation or normalization.<p>It&#x27;s interesting to me how resilient this misconception is. I have come to the conclusion that it&#x27;s just wishful thinking for a magic bullet for an age-old difficult problem.
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nradovover 6 years ago
The actual NIST report is here.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;csrc.nist.gov&#x2F;publications&#x2F;detail&#x2F;nistir&#x2F;8202&#x2F;final" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;csrc.nist.gov&#x2F;publications&#x2F;detail&#x2F;nistir&#x2F;8202&#x2F;final</a>
simiasover 6 years ago
I think the key point that crypto-enthusiasts often miss here is &quot;Are the entities with write access having a hard time deciding who should be in control of the data store&quot;. For many purported use-cases for blockchains (things having to do with traceability of goods for instance) the answer to this question is most likely &quot;no&quot;.<p>For instance if you want to trace a shipment of pineapples there must be some entity somewhere who&#x27;s tasked with making sure that the goods are up to code (otherwise anybody could just lie on the blockchain). This entity is clearly &quot;in control of the data store&quot;. Of course you may want to be able to publicly audit that entity&#x27;s records to detect any wrongdoings or suspicious activity, but that doesn&#x27;t require a blockchain at all, simply having a signed public database&#x2F;log (that anybody could archive) would do the trick nicely for instance.
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3chelonover 6 years ago
I remember trying to explain this to a bank I worked for a few years ago. The trouble is, they&#x27;re all so hyped up by the buzzwords they don&#x27;t listen.<p>And before I knew it they&#x27;d hired a self-styled &quot;blockchain consultant&quot; at god knows what daily rate. I realised I was fighting a losing battle. Probably should have reinvented myself there and then as a blockchain consultant.
commandlinefanover 6 years ago
I was honestly expecting a picture of the word &quot;No&quot;.
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m-i-lover 6 years ago
Also note the &quot;blockchain trilemma&quot;: at the moment you can have decentralised and secure systems that don&#x27;t scale (e.g. Bitcoin), or you can have scalable and secure systems which aren&#x27;t decentralised (e.g. all the &quot;private permissioned blockchain&quot; solutions which don&#x27;t actually need to use a blockchain).
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garysahota93over 6 years ago
The blockchain &quot;revolution&quot; is very similar to AI, bots, IoT, Web 2.0, etc etc.<p>These were all mainstream &quot;fads&quot; that died down over time. As I&#x27;ve said before, many of these technologies are revolutionary and extremely useful - but only in their respective domain. Calling any of them, blockchain included, the end-all-be-all is foolish. There are some legitimate use cases for which this will apply greatly. But it&#x27;s only a matter of time before another technology goes viral only for folks to realize it&#x27;s intended use cases and then simmer down to a focuses, purpose-driven tech.
zitterbewegungover 6 years ago
Seems to be very similar to this diagram from the hyperledger edX course.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jsemeraro.com&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2017&#x2F;12&#x2F;Blockchain-Decision-Path-edX.jpg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jsemeraro.com&#x2F;wp-content&#x2F;uploads&#x2F;2017&#x2F;12&#x2F;Blockch...</a>
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berbecover 6 years ago
Could have been simplified to &quot;no&quot;
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kawfeyover 6 years ago
One perfect use case is amateur radio cloud logging. Logbook of the World[0] is the defacto standard, which implements cryptographic signing, but the database is centralized, and it&#x27;s consistently broken, lagging, and needs frequent updates and downtime, and due to this it probably costs a lot of money to the American Radio Relay League (ARRL) and her members. Blockchain is the perfect solution IMO.<p>[0]: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.arrl.org&#x2F;logbook-of-the-world" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.arrl.org&#x2F;logbook-of-the-world</a>
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calibasover 6 years ago
So if you want a &quot;tamper-proof&quot;, auditable, decentralized data store, go with block chain.
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jacquesmover 6 years ago
Could we please have another one for AI?<p>And while we&#x27;re at it another for serverless architectures?
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snissnover 6 years ago
The concept of &quot;You&quot; is sort of interesting. If &quot;You&quot; want to build something that isn&#x27;t centrally owned by &quot;You&quot; then you should use a blockchain. Satoshi Nakamoto doesn&#x27;t &quot;own&quot; bitcoin anymore than anyone else does. Same with most other blockchain projects. The problems come when &quot;You&quot; want to have your cake and eat it too.
CydeWeysover 6 years ago
Some of these miss the mark, e.g. depending on what you&#x27;re doing with PII storing hashes or symmetric encryptions would work fine. Similarly, updates can be accomplished by writing new entries, which is how Bitcoin works; you read all blocks ever and steadily build up a (local) database of all the unspent transactions, and update those as new blocks come in. Namecoin works similarly but for DNS entries. It&#x27;s no different than replaying a transaction log in a standard DB (once) to reconstruct the current state.<p>Where &gt;99% of blockchain proposals fall down, though, is that they don&#x27;t actually need the &quot;anyone can commit&quot; property. Businesses sure as hell wouldn&#x27;t allow random strangers to commit to their internal blockchain, so they don&#x27;t really need one at all. They would only allow some small number of vetted, authenticated external parties to do so, in which case normal account mechanisms work fine.
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M2Ys4Uover 6 years ago
Do you want to help ruin the planet by wasting a tremendous amount of power? If yes, consider Blockchain
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greyhairover 6 years ago
Funny how almost everyone seems to be discussing the diagram and not actually reading the NIST paper first hand.<p>And then nitpicking over the very definition of what block chain is. But then saying &#x27;bitcoin&#x27; &#x27;ethereum&#x27; &#x27;git&#x27; and &#x27;merkle tree&#x27; over and over and over.<p>Given the title of the thread, and the availability of the actual text, I suggest everyone take a quick read first, then come on back. It is only 50 pages.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nvlpubs.nist.gov&#x2F;nistpubs&#x2F;ir&#x2F;2018&#x2F;NIST.IR.8202.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nvlpubs.nist.gov&#x2F;nistpubs&#x2F;ir&#x2F;2018&#x2F;NIST.IR.8202.pdf</a>
lwansbroughover 6 years ago
It seems to me that a better solution for auditing in situations where you don’t need a distributed ledger is using event sourcing. Blockchains are just a data structure after all. You wouldn’t say “just use a b-tree.” Event sourcing databases solve most of the problems blockchain companies seem to think they have. (And the other problems they have probably won’t be solved with Blockchain anyway.)
philip1209over 6 years ago
I&#x27;m surprised somebody hasn&#x27;t yet made an &quot;audit log as a service&quot;. The Reddit comment editing is one place that shows why companies cannot be trusted. But, for enterprise security, you also want a log that cannot be tampered with.
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r32a_over 6 years ago
Definition of blockchain is fluid because a blockchain is a combination of many technologies.
nwsmover 6 years ago
I don&#x27;t have a specific use case in mind but it seems that some subset of these, for example [0], would necessitate, or at least be aptly solved with a blockchain.<p>[0]: {Shared and Consistent, More than One Contributor, Distributed Control, Tamperproof Log}
platzover 6 years ago
sometimes you don&#x27;t really want a blockchain, you actually want a &quot;Distributed Ledger&quot;.<p>It&#x27;s similar in that a DLC also requires consensus. It&#x27;s different in that a DLC need not be a &quot;chain of blocks&quot;. i.e. a linked-list as it&#x27;s core data structure.<p>The Difference Between Blockchains &amp; Distributed Ledger Technology <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;towardsdatascience.com&#x2F;the-difference-between-blockchains-distributed-ledger-technology-42715a0fa92" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;towardsdatascience.com&#x2F;the-difference-between-blockc...</a>
sklivvz1971over 6 years ago
The last step should be &quot;You should use git&quot;
SilasXover 6 years ago
Is there a source document that can be linked instead?
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jesusthatsgreatover 6 years ago
You don&#x27;t need a blockchain until corruption and lack of transparency forces a need for one in order to re-build trust.
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mthomover 6 years ago
It is almost as though, prior to blockchain, nobody had conceived the idea of a distributed spreadsheet.
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paraditedcover 6 years ago
pdf of the document: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nvlpubs.nist.gov&#x2F;nistpubs&#x2F;ir&#x2F;2018&#x2F;NIST.IR.8202.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;nvlpubs.nist.gov&#x2F;nistpubs&#x2F;ir&#x2F;2018&#x2F;NIST.IR.8202.pdf</a>
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knownover 6 years ago
NIST nailed it :)
ucaetanoover 6 years ago
TL;DR: No.
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seibeljover 6 years ago
I think blockchain is staring us in the face as a solution to the collapse of trust in institutions. For example, if all votes were stored on a permissioned blockchain, audits would be trivial. If we layered it on top of our existing (bad) election technologies and did a post-election comparison of accuracy, I bet it would be far more accurate.
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