TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Firing Frankness

183 pointsby shawndumasover 6 years ago

35 comments

adrianmonkover 6 years ago
Toward the end, he gives the backstory of how the breakup was brewing for a long time, and it seems very possible the CEO may have already made up his mind to fire him before the Palo Alto dinner.<p>So maybe frankness wasn&#x27;t the cause. It&#x27;s even possible they were interested in his perspective and wanted to get his honest opinion before they lost the opportunity. Or maybe they had nearly made a final decision but not quite and wanted this conversation to see if what they learned made a difference either way.<p>On a separate(?) topic, a lot of tech organizations seem to be fond of saying they want to hear all ideas and judge the ideas on their merits, but when you actually say something that goes against popular opinion or conventional thinking within the organization, people aren&#x27;t open to it or are even hostile or dismissive. In my opinion, it&#x27;s not as easy for humans to be objective and open-minded as we think.
评论 #18711039 未加载
评论 #18709916 未加载
评论 #18711554 未加载
评论 #18714433 未加载
评论 #18711754 未加载
评论 #18711997 未加载
评论 #18711807 未加载
rootusrootusover 6 years ago
Ha! Many years ago when I was in the military, in tech school in fact, one of the teachers (a sergeant, for what it&#x27;s worth) flat out asked me to my face what I thought of him. Apparently I was telegraphing my feelings pretty well despite attempting to keep a completely neutral face. I asked, &quot;off the record?&quot; and he said &quot;yep&quot; and then I told him.<p>Whoops. There is no such thing as off the record. Lesson learned. Though in the end it worked out okay and I just got some mildly amused reprimands from my superiors about telling someone [whom everyone agreed was a jerk] that he was a jerk. I&#x27;m much better at keeping my flap shut now.
评论 #18710113 未加载
评论 #18711559 未加载
评论 #18709750 未加载
评论 #18709921 未加载
ergothusover 6 years ago
&gt; I recall the moment’s emotion: I felt I was performing a good deed, being helpfully clear and honest,<p>I know this emotion well - it has led me to any number of problems. Some cases where in retrospect I was being a self-indulgent jerk (&quot;What did you think of my performance&#x2F;presentation&#x2F;etc?&quot;) and some cases where I still feel I was not being harsh but was pointing out valid and relevant concerns, but from both I&#x27;ve learned to distrust this emotion. Perhaps saying what I think is good, perhaps not, but it should never feel _good_ to criticize.
评论 #18711035 未加载
评论 #18711480 未加载
darkersideover 6 years ago
Early in my career, I figured that, the code speaks for itself. If it works, it works! Can&#x27;t argue with that. That&#x27;s one of the appealing things about working with machines. They&#x27;re almost never &quot;wrong&quot;, it&#x27;s always something you can fix, do correctly, and ergo, win.<p>Later I learned, yes, a quick solution can be a good solution; but there can be more than one good solution, and in fact, others can be better. More maintainable, less verbose, so clear and simple there are obviously no errors. Abstractions in the right place and the right level. Modeling a business domain that stakeholders understand.<p>In the same way, just telling somebody &quot;the truth&quot; can get the message across. But it makes you the junior engineer of talking to people. As you grow in your career, you learn that there are many ways to communicate with the people around you. And different tones and patterns appeal to different people... or even to the same person at different times, based on mood or context.<p>You can learn (if you care) to work well with these complicated organic machines we call humans. And you can always get better and better at it, even when you already think you&#x27;re doing the brave thing, the heroic thing, the right thing.
评论 #18711474 未加载
评论 #18711470 未加载
评论 #18711849 未加载
acaliover 6 years ago
Always keep in mind that HR is there to manage the company&#x27;s &quot;human resources&quot;; they are not looking out for your best interest. They are acting on behalf of the company.
评论 #18711321 未加载
baldfatover 6 years ago
His firing led to Be OS!<p>That was the the prime example of the better tech losing. I know most of us know about it but to actually use it was totally different. I couldn&#x27;t get a low resolution video to play but on Be OS I could have 12 high resolution videos play at the same time move them around and if I unplug my computer I can boot up and the videos would all start back up right where they left off.
评论 #18710033 未加载
评论 #18709801 未加载
projektfuover 6 years ago
The article&#x27;s title is facetious because the author was a high level manager at Apple, the boss was the CEO, and HR was the VP of HR acting in a capacity as a trusted advisor, and it&#x27;s not really about HR. I thought it was a good read.<p>Relatedly, I remember that the Macintosh-oriented press hinted that there was trouble brewing at Apple for a long time but they didn&#x27;t want to come out and say, &quot;Apple&#x27;s management is slowly killing the company.&quot; This story suggests that Sculley would have cut off those reporters if they had.<p>Edit: at the time of writing, the submission title was &quot;My boss asks me what I really think of him. HR advises me to tell the truth. I’m fired.&quot;
评论 #18711061 未加载
AlexCoventryover 6 years ago
&gt; Sullivan puts his arm around my shoulder: “Jean-Louis, I’m proud of you…” After half a decade in Cupertino, I know what this means: What I have done is irreparable.<p>I don&#x27;t follow his reasoning, here. What is it about Cupertino which immediately leads him to this conclusion?
评论 #18709592 未加载
评论 #18709756 未加载
评论 #18709602 未加载
评论 #18709966 未加载
评论 #18709558 未加载
评论 #18709601 未加载
评论 #18709604 未加载
alexashkaover 6 years ago
&gt; In 1985, after learning of Steve Jobs&#x27;s plan to oust CEO John Sculley over Memorial Day weekend while Sculley was in China, Gassée preemptively informed the board of directors, which eventually led to Jobs&#x27;s resignation from Apple. [0]<p>Did HR tell him to do that too? This guy is quite the politician - playing the victim, sincerity card really well. I had to google to piece it together.<p>Good on him, what a master storyteller of self serving narratives.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Jean-Louis_Gass%C3%A9e" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Jean-Louis_Gass%C3%A9e</a>
wrsover 6 years ago
I joined the Newton team in 1988 as an intern (and stayed for 8 years). It&#x27;s interesting to hear with 30 more years of perspective JLG&#x27;s story of the Steve Sakoman situation that resulted in that team&#x27;s existence. At the time I had no inkling of the drama that must have occurred that resulted in the creation of a totally isolated team in that totally isolated building on Bubb Road. I did realize how lucky I was to be working there, though. :)
评论 #18711621 未加载
评论 #18709858 未加载
nisuniover 6 years ago
Never believe HR, they neither represent your interests nor are impartial, even if they’d like to appear impartial.<p>HR represents your employer interests. Period.
评论 #18711339 未加载
评论 #18711819 未加载
评论 #18710269 未加载
wuliwongover 6 years ago
Something I&#x27;ve noticed recently is people that say things like the author did here<p>&gt;Just for crossing the street, I’m rewarded with an even fancier President (of Apple Products) title<p>I&#x27;m not saying this is happening more often, I just have been noticing it recently.<p>Maybe I am misinterpreting the tone or misunderstanding the situation. But, this seems in contrast to actual humility where someone is grateful for a raise or promotion but possibly feels undeserving or lucky. The author comes across to me as pretty detached from the struggles that the lion&#x27;s share of the world experiences. I get that this article is about some high level corporate politics but it still seems tone deaf to me.
评论 #18710075 未加载
评论 #18713076 未加载
评论 #18710326 未加载
评论 #18710114 未加载
notJimover 6 years ago
It&#x27;s very obvious from the comments that no one is reading the article, and is just responding to the previous, crappier headline.
评论 #18711158 未加载
srmattoover 6 years ago
Never do anything more than say hi&#x2F;bye to HR.
baqover 6 years ago
You want someone in the company backing you? Start an union.
choegerover 6 years ago
From reading the article it is pretty clear that the decision to let him go was already made months before. So what&#x27;s the point?<p>An exec that cannot deal with (polite) disagreement is probably on the way downwards already himself. Of course you might hit a sensible spot with honesty by chance but even then it is hard to justify an otherwise successful employee.
评论 #18711176 未加载
anjcover 6 years ago
With all that experience it&#x27;s a wonder he fell for the oldest &quot;does my bum look big in this&quot; trick in the book.
protomythover 6 years ago
I guess the golden rule is true, when anyone from HR says &quot;be honest&quot; its basically a warning not a directive.<p><i>Apple management is concerned that some engineers might elect to follow me, wherever I may land.</i><p>I would suppose that they looked back at 1985 and realized that Jean-Louis Gassée was popular with a lot of engineers. I wonder if John Sculley was ever popular in the same way and resented it. I look back at the navigator video with the newspaper and realize that he really didn&#x27;t get the effects of a technology on how things would work.
devyover 6 years ago
This reminds me of Leadership BS by Jeffrey Pfeffer. [1] And he gave a talk at Google about his book [2]<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Leadership-BS-Fixing-Workplaces-Careers&#x2F;dp&#x2F;0062383167" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Leadership-BS-Fixing-Workplaces-Caree...</a><p>[2]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=pFXcqSUi3EI" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=pFXcqSUi3EI</a>
megaman8over 6 years ago
I suspect when someone asks you to tell what they really think of them, the word really should come with an asterik.
评论 #18711163 未加载
评论 #18709593 未加载
newnewpdroover 6 years ago
When HR advises you to do something in particular, feign obliviousness while taking at least a day or two to consult yourself&#x2F;friends&#x2F;family&#x2F;attorneys where applicable - Not coworkers!<p>HR serves the company, not the employee.
a-dubover 6 years ago
... and to think... if it hadn&#x27;t been for this fateful night, half the world&#x27;s smartphones wouldn&#x27;t have that weird RPC mechanism...
0db532a0over 6 years ago
Did the CEO maybe have a hand in making HR set the guy up to test his loyalty? He seemed very loyal, but maybe to the wrong ideas&#x2F;people.
debtover 6 years ago
I find these interactions fascinating because from your own perspective it may seem like everything is kosher.<p>Little do you know you’re a dead man.
评论 #18713458 未加载
mortenjorckover 6 years ago
It seems at least half of the comments here are responding to the original submission title (taken from the article subhead rather than the headline) with no context at all of this being Jean-Louis Gassée, John Sculley, and 28 years ago. I see the mods changed the title to the article’s headline instead, which will likely cut down on the title-only responses, but it’s still surprising to see just how many people clearly commented before clicking.
评论 #18709934 未加载
m0zgover 6 years ago
This could also be an impedance mismatch between European and US cultures. When Europeans (especially Eastern Europeans) are asked to be candid, they often are, without much regard for the consequences. As an immigrant I fortunately learned this very early in the US leg of my career, and now I just reply with inoffensive platitudes even if the person does deserve harsher feedback. I&#x27;m sometimes candid with my reports. I&#x27;m _never_ 100% candid with my bosses, after a couple of near career-ending run-ins (which, when you&#x27;re an H1-B as I was at the time, results in getting kicked out of the country within 2 weeks).
mlthoughts2018over 6 years ago
Being fired in this situation is a gift. Move on and turn down options until you find one you have good reason to believe would be healthy.<p>Same goes for people all up and down the career or hierarchy ladders. If being charitably honest with thoughtful communication gets you fired, or if your honesty is subverted by the politics of your organization to be used to attribute something negative to you, just quit, take time away from working and get back on the job hunt in a few weeks or months. Sticking around would be too unacceptably bad for your health.<p>I’ve done this twice in my career, both times without significant savings to live on, and even with the financial pressure to get a job, it was way, way healthier to forego income and insurance than continuing to work in those unhealthy situations. I also found that recruiters seemed mostly fine with my reasons for a resume gap, most didn’t even ask or care.
crimsonalucardover 6 years ago
&quot;Soon, engineers are marching outside with placards that read Jean-Louis Don’t Go.&quot;<p>How do you achieve that level of leadership and loyalty?
sonnyblarneyover 6 years ago
I don&#x27;t think this story is related to &#x27;frankness&#x27;.<p>It&#x27;s hard to be an executive, and hard to manage them, sometimes they have to go.<p>The only part that bothered me about this was the cringeworthy fake emotions about the firing. &quot;I&#x27;m sorry but we have to &#x27;separate you from Apple&#x27;&quot;.<p>That&#x27;s the bit of California newspeak that drives me nuts.<p>We can be honest and cordial the same time, and in both directions - and - if we hav just a little bit of tolerance for those who are either a little to frank or a little to effusive, then everyone gets along.
Breadmakerover 6 years ago
by Jean-Louis Gassée
评论 #18709525 未加载
jekljover 6 years ago
Keep it anodyne, pretty much always. You can tell your spouse what you really think. Or better yet, your dog.
评论 #18709562 未加载
crimsonalucardover 6 years ago
Maybe deliver criticism packaged in positive comments?<p>&quot;You&#x27;re the greatest boss I ever had. You taught me a lot... I admire you... I just disagree with you a bit on this...... &quot;
patrickg_zillover 6 years ago
HR is there to protect the company. Not you.
评论 #18709499 未加载
评论 #18709723 未加载
crimsonalucardover 6 years ago
“Any fool can criticize, complain, and condemn—and most fools do. But it takes character and self-control to be understanding and forgiving.”<p>“Criticism is futile because it puts a person on the defensive and usually makes him strive to justify himself. Criticism is dangerous, because it wounds a person&#x27;s precious pride, hurts his sense of importance, and arouses resentment.”<p>- Dale Carnegie, How to win friends and influence people.<p>If you disagree with the quotes above. Be frank about it, I can take it.
评论 #18711513 未加载
bitwizeover 6 years ago
Iron rule of the corporate world: if you have a problem with your boss, or with something the boss likes and supports, from his end it&#x27;s not a problem that can&#x27;t be solved with a pink slip.<p>If you value being able to feed your family, learn to love your boss and his ideas.
评论 #18709584 未加载
评论 #18709428 未加载
评论 #18710054 未加载
评论 #18710009 未加载
评论 #18711186 未加载
评论 #18709466 未加载
评论 #18709579 未加载
评论 #18709495 未加载