TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

On Disbelieving Atrocities (1944)

73 pointsby anonymouzzover 6 years ago

12 comments

ufmaceover 6 years ago
The trouble with this - I can sympathize with the frustration of watching atrocities happening in your homeland and not being able to get people in another country far away to care. But I can also sympathize with the ordinary people in these countries far away wanting to live their lives and not wallow in every tragedy that happens around the world.<p>Because there&#x27;s quite a lot of things happening all the time, even now, that at least the people involved would consider terrible atrocities. Have you even read about what the Burmese have been doing to the Rohingya? How about the new Chinese &quot;Re-Education Camps&quot; for Muslims there? Or what ISIS-associated factions are doing in Syria?
评论 #18741264 未加载
评论 #18741749 未加载
sitkackover 6 years ago
I believe in spiral nebulae, can see them in a telescope and express their distance in figures; but they have a lower degree of reality for me than the inkpot on my table. Distance in space and time degrades intensity of awareness. So does magnitude. Seventeen is a figure which I know intimately like a friend; fifty billions is just a sound. A dog run over by a car upsets our emotional balance and digestion; three million Jews killed in Poland cause but a moderate uneasiness. Statistics don&#x27;t bleed; it is the detail which counts. We are unable to embrace the total process with our awareness; we can only focus on little lumps of reality.
wybiralover 6 years ago
As sentient animals emerging from nature I think the ability to look away from atrocity understandable. It permeates nature to its core. Predation, disease, decay, and death are everywhere outside of our human distraction bubble.<p>What&#x27;s more interesting to me than the ability to look away is that we&#x27;ve developed a sense of urgency to change that. Not just for ourselves, but for other humans and animals around us. In general, as a species, we&#x27;ve moved significantly in the right direction towards reducing the atrocity.
johnny313over 6 years ago
&gt;&gt; <i>Our awareness seems to shrink in direct ratio as communications expand; the world is open to us as never before, and we walk about as prisoners, each in his private portable cage.</i><p>This seems to be an evergreen phenomenon. The world today is more open and connected than it was in 1944, but with that openness has come an much greater capacity to live in a walled garden of our own making.
fractallyteover 6 years ago
This is the key quote: &quot;For as long as there are people on the road and victims in the thicket, divided by dream barriers, this will remain a phoney civilisation.&quot;<p>Of course, people throw up their hands in helplessness. Or, for some, there is helpless guilt. But it needn&#x27;t be so. It was Adelle Davis who once wrote: &quot;It is part of my creed — of my religion if you like — that when you have the ability to help your fellow man, that ability ceases to be merely an ability and becomes a responsibility.&quot;
anonymouzzover 6 years ago
At first nobody believed because there really was no concrete evidence. This was changed by Witold Pilecki:<p>&gt; <i>During World War II, Pilecki volunteered for a Polish resistance operation that involved being imprisoned in the Auschwitz concentration camp in order to gather intelligence and later escape. While in the camp, he organized a resistance movement and informed the Western Allies of Nazi Germany&#x27;s Auschwitz atrocities as early as 1941. He escaped from the camp in 1943 after nearly 2½ years of imprisonment.</i><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Witold_Pilecki" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Witold_Pilecki</a><p>By 1944 the evidence was massive, yet Arthur Koestler still needed to write this piece.
评论 #18741123 未加载
评论 #18741104 未加载
m0zgover 6 years ago
Sometimes &quot;atrocities&quot; should be disbelieved, though.<p>Consider the most recent Syrian &quot;nerve gas attacks&quot;. Politicians said they were &quot;sure&quot;, launched airstrikes, pulled the remaining diplomats from the region. Then the only actually trustworthy body, OPCW, released the report in which it said, I quote: &quot;no organophosphorus nerve agents or their degradation products were detected&quot; (don&#x27;t believe me? Google the exact quote). If sarin were actually used, those degradation products would be at detectable levels for many years.<p>Chlorine residue _was_ found, but the position of the bodies on the scene is inconsistent with chlorine poisoning, suggesting that the bodies might have been moved to suggest they died of a nerve agent (i.e. fell to the ground where they stood, rather than ran to the windows gasping for air). The delivery mechanism is also unclear, there are undamaged chlorine cylinders found at the scene, suggesting that it wasn&#x27;t launched from a distance.<p>So we&#x27;ve been blatantly lied to by politicians and the press yet again in order to manufacture consent. This was mostly ignored by the public. This is not the first time this has been done, either. See e.g. Iraq &quot;WMDs&quot;, and the current darling of the liberal establishment, Robert Mueller, deliberately lying to Congress: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=uTDO-kuOGTQ" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=uTDO-kuOGTQ</a>. I say &quot;deliberately&quot; because no &quot;evidence&quot; could have been presented to him, because none existed.
intralizeeover 6 years ago
Atrocities happen because the systems encompassing us are not perfect. Problems arise because we humans decide to live under the imperfect systems; vastly different by where on earth you happen to be. Metaphorically it&#x27;s like when you travel, you&#x27;re navigating into a new realm and where the game rules are completely rewritten for whatever the outcome will be and with whatever consequences. My intuition thinks this is a problem. The differences keep the world beautiful but separate us fundamentally in how things are handled.<p>I&#x27;ve been a victim of of a situation, that would not have happened if I had not been where I was and had been in a different country. I know it was an atrocity and in 100 years I could easily see people not believing it had happened &amp; even today I&#x27;ve seen doubts.<p>Individuals are prone to question every possible situation with vastly different personal ideas. It&#x27;s how great things come about. Disbelieving is also a result for some individuals and maybe it&#x27;s dangerous but it&#x27;s part of the equation. My assumption is energy should be focused towards making the systems around the globe more similar with trying to keep culture intact. Although the world may be safer for everyone without culture and just one nationality.<p>Lastly I think we have people disbelieving atrocities because compassion is piss poor compared to what we&#x27;re capable of. People will focus only on themselves when the systems don&#x27;t care about societies health (depending on where you live) and results in people being delusional or disbelieving what&#x27;s in fact reality.
emmelaichover 6 years ago
From another great writer of the human condition ...<p>Musée des Beaux Arts W.H.Auden<p><pre><code> About suffering they were never wrong, The Old Masters; how well, they understood Its human position; how it takes place While someone else is eating or opening a window or just walking dully along; .... </code></pre> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Mus%C3%A9e_des_Beaux_Arts_(poem)" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Mus%C3%A9e_des_Beaux_Arts_(poe...</a>
ArtWombover 6 years ago
Crystal clear writing. With cogent argumentation. This is how you persuade. Parallels with contemporary climate deniers is stunning.
评论 #18740997 未加载
评论 #18741328 未加载
YeGoblynQueenneover 6 years ago
&gt;&gt; On Disbelieving Atrocities<p>&gt;&gt; Arthur Koestler (Jan. 1944)<p>I wondered if the author is <i>the</i> Arthur Koestler, but Wikipedia tells me he was born in 1905, so if I read the following sentence correctly (i.e. meaning that the writer is 62 at the time of writing, in 1944), then the piece was written by another author of the same name, because the best-known Arthur Koestler was 39 in 1944:<p>&gt;&gt; &quot;I know&quot; that, the average statistical age being about 65, I may reasonably expect to live no more than another 2.7 years, (...)<p>And yet, a cursory search on the internet suggests the well-known Arthur Koestler was, indeed the writer of the piece. What gives?
评论 #18741178 未加载
评论 #18741158 未加载
PavlovsCatover 6 years ago
&gt; These limitations of awareness account for the limitations of enlightenment by propaganda. People go to cinemas, they see films of Nazi tortures, of mass-shootings, of underground conspiracy and self-sacrifice. They sigh, they shake their heads, some have a good cry. But they do not connect it with the realities of their normal plane of existence.<p>translated from Hannah Arendt in &quot;Elemente und Ursprünge totaler Herrschaft&quot;:<p>&gt; <i>The movies which the Allies showed in Germany and other countries after the war was over, have proven that the characteristic of insanity and irreality of the photographed events withstands all mere reportage. For the unbiased viewer they are about as convincing as the photographs of mysterious substances in spiritist seances. Common sense reacts to the atrocities of Buchenwald or Auschwitz with the plausible argument: &quot;What crimes have these people committed, that this was done to them?&quot; Or, in Germany and Austria during the food shortages, the overpopulation and the general hatred: &quot;Too bad not more were murdered!&quot; Or everywhere with head shaking, suspicious of a particularly ineffective trick of propaganda.</i><p>&gt; <i>Although the propaganda of truth doesn&#x27;t convince the normal &quot;square&quot; citizen because of its monstrosity, it has a much more dangerous effect on those who from their own fantasies know that they would be capable of doing such a thing, and who are simply happy to believe in the reality of the shown events. Suddenly it turns out that what human fantasy for millenia had declared to be beyond human competence can be produced after all. Hell and limbo, and even an inkling of their eternal duration, can be built, by letting humans die forever, with the most modern methods of destruction and healing. What these types, of whom there are more in any big city than we are willing to believe, realize when they watch these movies or read those articles, is that the power of man is greater than they dared to admit, and that hellish fantasies can be realized without the sky falling down, or the ground opening up.</i><p>Seeing how the book was originally written in English I&#x27;m sure the original is much better (but sadly I don&#x27;t have it in English, yet). I hope it&#x27;s at least somewhat understandable, but I still want to include the German from which I translated for completeness:<p>&gt; <i>Die Filme, die die Allierten nach Kriegsende in Deutschland und im Ausland liefen ließen, haben nur zu deutlich erwiesen, daß der Irrsinns- und Irrealitätscharakter der photographierten Begebenheiten aller reinen Reportage standhält. Für den unbefangenen Zuschauer kommt ihnen etwas soviel Überzeugungskraft zu wie den Photographien mysteriöser Substanzen in spiritistischen Sitzungen. Der gesunde Menschenverstand reagierte auf die Greuel von Buchenwald oder Auschwitz mit dem plausiblen Argument: &quot;Was müssen die Leute nur angestellt haben, daß dies mit ihnen geschah?&quot; Oder, in Deutschland und Österreich inmitten der Hungersnot, der Überbevölkerung und des allgemeinen Hasses: &quot;Wie schade, dass man nicht mehr Juden vergast hat!&quot; Oder überall mit dem Kopfschütteln des Mißtrauens genen einen besonders unwirksamen Propagandatrick.</i><p>&gt; <i>Wenn die Propaganda der Wahrheit ihrer Ungeheuerlichkeit wegen den noch normalen Spießbürger nicht überzeugt, so hat sie eine desto gefährlichere Wirkung auf diejenigen, welche aus ihren eigenen Phantasiemöglichkeiten wissen, daß sie so etwas tun könnten, und aus diesem Grunde nur zu froh sind, an die Realität des Gezeigten zu glauben. Urplötzlich stellt sich heraus, daß, was die menschliche Phantasie seit Jahrtausenden in ein Reich jenseits menschlicher Kompetenz verbannt hat hatte, tatsächlich herstellbar ist. Hölle und Fegefeuer und selbst ein Abglanz ihrer ewigen Dauer können errichtet werden, indem man Menschen mit den modernsten Mitteln der Destruktion und der Heilkunst unendlich lange sterben läßt. Was diesen Typen, von denen es in jeder Großstadt sehr viel mehr gibt, als wir gerne wahrhaben möchten, beim Anblick dieser Filme oder beim Lesen jener Reportagen aufgeht, ist, daß die Macht des Menschen größer ist, als sie sich einzugestehen wagten, und daß man höllische Phantasien realisieren kann, ohne daß der Himmel einstürzt und die Erde sich auftut.</i><p>another bit from the article:<p>&gt; I think one should imitate this example. Two minutes of this kind of exercise per day, with closed eyes, after reading the morning paper, are at present more necessary to us than physical jerks and breathing the Yogi way. It might even be a substitute for going to church. For as long as there are people on the road and victims in the thicket, divided by dream barriers, this will remain a phoney civilisation.<p>Yes! I can&#x27;t say anything other than &quot;yes&quot;, really. Or &quot;this, so much this&quot;.<p>&gt; <i>Either we all live in a decent world, or nobody does.</i><p>-- George Orwell
评论 #18741624 未加载