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The LaTeX fetish (2016)

112 pointsby eduover 6 years ago

47 comments

al2o3crover 6 years ago
<p><pre><code> So convinced was I that this was why scientists wrote in LaTeX that I even had a go at writing a LaTeX paper of my own (it never got finished; there was a lesson there). </code></pre> So after successfully completing the task ZERO times, the author still felt fully qualified to dismiss the entire approach and whinge about the tooling. &#x2F;facepalm
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klyrsover 6 years ago
I&#x27;m more of a leather gal, but... <i>cough</i> I think that&#x27;s more of a fashion choice<p>I&#x27;ve been using LaTeX for over a decade and I&#x27;ve never heard&#x2F;made these arguments about LaTeX &quot;separating formatting from content&quot; except when a colleague has painstakingly written a torturous macro to accomplish some fussy layout. And then we happily \include{their code} so that we don&#x27;t need to look at that godawful mess mixed in with our prose. (okay that&#x27;s a lie, my prose is interspersed with tikz arcana to make coauthors weep with pain and readers delight over the beauty of my figures -- yes there&#x27;s some sadism and masochism involved, let&#x27;s not deny it)<p>Latex gives a powerful basis for document editing that can be learned in hours. It&#x27;s not special in that regard, and easier markup languages abound. For me and others, LaTeX is a turing-complete, flexible, high powered typesetting engine with good defaults and no handrails. We&#x27;re programmers, not graphic designers, so we can handle a little (well, a lot) of flagellation to build intermediate tools in the language which accomplish repetitive tasks.<p>All that shit about the language being easy and helpful? It&#x27;s written by fetishists for sure. Knuth is a big fan of literate programming but the code he writes is a godawful stab through the eyeball. Maybe somebody with more refined tastes in code structure could do a better job. But they haven&#x27;t and we use LaTeX, so buckle up kiddos you&#x27;re mathematicians now
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quietbritishjimover 6 years ago
The article author should have tried LyX [1]. It&#x27;s a graphical editor but still uses LaTeX to produce the output. (Its main downside is that its LaTeX <i>import</i> functionality is very patchy.) It has support for a large common set of LaTeX functionality, and there are a few ways to extend it e.g. user macros and modules. If all else fails you can directly insert raw LaTeX in your document; obviously this defeats the point so is best avoided where possible, but it shows that it can ultimately do everything LaTeX can.<p>The graphical representation shown on screen is somewhat approximate e.g. fonts and sizes are approximate, and line wrapping is totally unrelated to the final output. But it&#x27;s good enough to understand what&#x27;s what, and most importantly it&#x27;s free of all the markup clutter, and that&#x27;s what the author objects to. It&#x27;s especially good at this for equations, but it makes a different even just for regular text. Plus it has autocomplete for LaTeX commands (I realise that there are LaTeX editors that do this too).<p>A lot of people mistake LyX as being a beginner&#x27;s tool to avoid understanding LaTeX. I would say it is almost exactly the opposite: you still need to understand LaTeX to use LyX effectively. Rather than the markup being right in front of you it&#x27;s hidden by a layer of indirection, which of course is the whole point, but it makes it harder to understand what&#x27;s going on when something breaks. It breaks less often (e.g. you never get mismatched close braces) but the hard errors still crop up (e.g. incompatible packages giving really obscure errors about macro expansions).<p>I&#x27;ve written numerous mathematical documents of various lengths in LyX, and prior to that a few documents in LaTeX including my MSc thesis. When I first discovered LyX I was partway through writing up notes from a lecture course I was attending. In LaTeX it took me about three hours to write up notes for each hour lecture; in LyX it took me one hour per hour of lecture. A factor of three speed improvement! I can hardly imagine how long my PhD thesis would&#x27;ve taken without it.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lyx.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lyx.org&#x2F;</a>
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_emacsomancer_over 6 years ago
In fact, the one place you should never try to do any more substantial writing than designing the poster for your niece&#x27;s 4th birthday part is a word processor.<p>Word processors are one of the worst environments I can imagine for actually writing. Lots of people surely write in LaTeX in part because they can use a reasonable environment for writing (i.e. a decent text editor).<p>Also, if you&#x27;re in a decent text editor, writing LaTeX can be pretty easy (though for lots of things Org mode or markdown etc. may be more appropriate), and you can set up macros to auto-fill in things like the preamble etc.<p>I essentially write for a living, and I would not have survived had I not adopted LaTeX.
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phalangionover 6 years ago
The author&#x27;s found arguments of separating content from presentation is only part of the reason I use LaTeX. I use LaTeX and other markup languages (mainly AsciiDoc) when I can, as opposed to using a word processor, because I have found that Word manages to find hidden ways to mangle any document that does more than include text in paragraphs. What I like about using LaTeX is if the document is broken, it&#x27;s usually my fault and I can see the underlying code that is breaking it. If you&#x27;ve ever had to unzip a Word document to fix the underlying XML (I have), you&#x27;ll understand how frustrating it is working with hidden markup.
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pjc50over 6 years ago
Generally I would say that if your document doesn&#x27;t include at least one equation it&#x27;s not worth learning LaTeX to do. If your writing is going to involve lots of inline maths, or you&#x27;re submitting to one of the journals that requires it, then it will make your life much easier.<p>Some of the Stackexchange sites make widespread use of MathJax for this purpose: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;math.meta.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;5020&#x2F;mathjax-basic-tutorial-and-quick-reference" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;math.meta.stackexchange.com&#x2F;questions&#x2F;5020&#x2F;mathjax-b...</a><p>(Word does now store equations as XML internally, but it&#x27;s pretty horrible - 5 kilobytes for the quadratic formula, for example)<p>Edit: I&#x27;ve just remembered that when I was at university in the late 90s, there was a small community of non-maths LaTeX users ... who were doing things like New Testament Greek. There may be other specialised use cases where having fine control over WYG is more important than WYSIWYG.<p>Now I&#x27;ve gone looking for it, I can find an example : <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk&#x2F;~mma29&#x2F;essays&#x2F;dissertation&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk&#x2F;~mma29&#x2F;essays&#x2F;dissertation&#x2F;</a> - I think the intent of using LaTeX here was really for Bibtex, the bibliographic system, which is an extremely important part of all true academic papers.
DJHenkover 6 years ago
&gt; LaTeX is a typesetting system and a markup language. Typesetting systems are not customarily used for writing in, and while markup languages such as XML and HTML often are, this is generally recognised as a bad idea.<p>This is dumb. One can argue that LaTeX is not a convenient markup language enough to write in. But stating that a markup language in itself is a bad thing for writing, while Markdown was invented in 2004 and wildly popular at the time this article was written (2016), means that the author himself is not completely rational when defending his preference, using XML and HTML as strawmen.
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lautreamontover 6 years ago
The problem with word processors is that you can&#x27;t properly do distributed work with them. No one I work with uses the exact same version of the same word processor I do; actually people in the real world don&#x27;t even have consistent versions on their multiple machines. Every version switch fucks over fonts, formatting, comments... everything except the bare text. Most of my workflows are at follows:<p>1. Send LibreOffice text to collaborator 2. Get changes&#x2F;comments back from collaborator 3. Start addressing them 4. Realize that collaborator has fucked up the formatting by using MS Word 5. Fix formatting 6. Address comments 7. Go home for the day 8. Telecommute the next day, fire up result of 6 on your old machine at home 9. Realize it won&#x27;t even load comment notes 10. Ask the wife if you can borrow her Win7 machine for the job 11. Give up on formatting, do the editing job first on MS Word 12. Go back to office the day after, fix the formatting which is now an unholy mess of LibreOffice and MS Word 13. Swear at LibreOffice because it somehow spontaneously returns to MS Word formatting but not consistently 14. Get some resemblance of working formatting in order 15. goto 1<p>Yeah... I&#x27;m afraid LaTeX is the lesser evil there.<p>(None of this applies to cloud-based work using e.g. Google Documents. If you want to entrust your drafts to Google, feel free to do so. I don&#x27;t consider this an option for anything under NDA.)
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winstonewertover 6 years ago
The author fundamentally misunderstands the argument for LaTeX. The point isn&#x27;t that people in word processors spend absurd amounts of time deciding what fonts to use or might make stupid choices about formatting. In both word processors and LaTeX, people do the same thing: they write to match a style guide.<p>In LaTeX you drop in a class file that defines your style guide and <i>boom</i> your whole LaTeX document is now formatted according to that style guide. If later you want a different style guide, switch out the class file and you&#x27;ve got something different. Need to write your bibliography in a different style, swap out the file defining that and all your references are changed.<p>That&#x27;s the point that advocates of LaTeX are making. You separate the content and presentation. Your LaTeX just contains the content and the style guide indicates how to actually format that content.<p>Now, LaTeX doesn&#x27;t actually do a great job at this. It shows its age. Its got a lot of messiness due to the fact that at hard its a macro expansion language. Its not quite possible to get away with putting everything to do with the style in the class file.
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wyattpeakover 6 years ago
The idea of somebody critiquing Latex for being a difficult format to write in while writing almost exclusively plaintext is pretty baffling to me. It&#x27;s like saying that Photoshop is too complicated because I can draw a square just fine in Paint.<p>My domain is pretty specific - typesetting chemistry papers, but for that it is absolutely invaluable. There&#x27;s no tool on the market which can do it with anywhere approaching the ease. Even MSWord, which is now good enough that I can type simple maths about as fast as I can in Latex (although frankly even there I prefer Latex to futzing with a gui), doesn&#x27;t have nearly the tools I need.<p>I&#x27;ll bet this is true in all sorts of smaller domains, too. Typeset anything unusual enough not to have good specialist tools and the freedom of Latex typesetting will make up for the learning curve in weeks if not days.
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nvusuvuover 6 years ago
I wrote my electrical engineering thesis in 2005 using LaTeX. My university had a style guide file for thesis submissions. All I had to do was focus on content of my thesis and a little wrangling to make images look nice. The formatting, typesetting, fonts, sizes, margins, all of it was taken care of. To not have to worry about that was amazing. Thank goodness the style file was already there for me to use. I love LaTeX, but I know some of its limitations and its not intended for the layperson.
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cryptonectorover 6 years ago
The correct answer is: use LyX[0], a WYSIWYM[1] editor.<p>LyX is truly fantastic by comparison to Word and LibreOffice. You get all the power of LaTeX and none of the pain. WYSIWYM is superior to WYSIWYG! WYSIWYG means you have to fiddle with typesetting as you write, whereas WYSIWYM means you don&#x27;t.<p>LyX also supports a variety of export formats, including XHTML. I&#x27;ve used its export to XHTML feature so that I can edit Internet-Drafts in LyX then convert them to XML (using an XSL) in the schema accepted by xml2rfc, and presto, no need to edit XML.<p><pre><code> [0] [1] http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lyx.org&#x2F; [1] What you see is what you mean.</code></pre>
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qwerty456127over 6 years ago
LaTeX indeed seems overly obscure and the fact it mixes the content with formatting does feel bad but I still can see no viable alternative. It seems the only code-based typesetting system (am I wrong?), the only typesetting system that provides such a degree of power and arguably the only way to produce beautiful PDFs with reasonable ease. So far I have chosen the way of writing well-structured HTML or Markdown (to separate content from formatting), rendering it to LaTeX with a Python script and using LuaTeX to produce final output.
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ddavisover 6 years ago
When I was an undergrad at UT Austin I remember hearing someone who worked with Steven Weinberg mention that Weinberg told people that he “thinks in TeX”.<p>One of the things I love about TeX is I can write it in my editor _without_ WYSIWYG. The tooling in Emacs to write TeX is amazing. I can never go back to a graphical writing tool.
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gumbyover 6 years ago
Oh yawn. Use the tools that work for you.<p>I write primarily in Emacs and use markup. I don&#x27;t try to convince anyone else to do the same. If MS Word (or TextEdit) work for you, great! I tend to write large documents for which I find those tools to be clumsy, but if your milage varies, no problem.
billfruitover 6 years ago
I do feel there is bit of Latex worship going on. Now I think, markdown&#x2F;asciidoc that boils down to DocBook is better that latex for most use cases. Markdown more clearly seperates logical formatting, from the rendering dependent physical formatting for different kinds of output. Moreover latex tables are a pain.<p>Maybe I this is my misunderstanding, is something the wrong with &#x27;composability&#x27; of constructs in the LaTeX language? A concrete examples eludes me presently, it is like the latex functions&#x2F;forms cannot be nested arbitrarily like normal programming language blocks&#x2F;constructs.
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vkazanovover 6 years ago
The article is very, very misinformed. Word processors are good for text..?! Pure text markup formats are bad? Oh, really-really?<p>I suspect the author never really wrote anything reasonably complicated.<p>How about:<p>1) can&#x27;t have proper a version control with those binary documents word processors generate.<p>2) no easy way to split huge papers&#x2F;thesis&#x2F;book into manageble pieces<p>3) conversion between formats is a nightmare, with formatting falling apart all the time.<p>4) typing formulas in Word (and Libre&#x2F;OpenOffice) is a torture.<p>5) diffs<p>6) ...<p>that&#x27;s just off the top of my head.
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jhfdbkofdchoover 6 years ago
I didn’t find this article helpful. But one of my math professors in college quipped,<p>“LaTeX, never has so much bad math looked so good...”
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dpwmover 6 years ago
&gt; There were also some development effort to “easy” LaTeX typesettings (for instance ConTeXt) but they not became widespread as “WYSIWYM” editors such LyX or TeXMacs, IMVHO because they are in fact less flexible than plain LaTeX and plain LaTeX is easier enough, at least it’s give you a easy and simple “learning path”.<p>ConTeXt is a substantially different beast to LaTeX. It&#x27;s not LaTeX, although there are some LaTeX-inspired packages and tools to help migrate. A lot of ConTeXt is now written in Lua, and the versions in TeXlive are now sufficiently up-to-date to work from the manuals.<p>ConTeXt takes the view that it will start with sensible defaults and allow nearly all to be customized. Modules tend to play nicely together in an orthogonal way, but a lot of documents can be written without importing any modules.<p>The one thing I wouldn&#x27;t say about ConTeXt is it&#x27;s easier – you probably won&#x27;t find the answers on stackoverflow like for LaTeX. It&#x27;s a much more complicated system and you need the reference manual. But if you know how you want the page laid out and don&#x27;t want to have to hack away at a style file, then it&#x27;s a very powerful tool for serious typesetting.
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choegerover 6 years ago
The author is right but IMO totally misses the point. When you do serious writing, you probably do not want to maintain the content in LaTeX. But not because LaTeX is difficult per se, but because there is, for instance, no way to put the content through a decent grammar&#x2F;style checker and get back some useful annotations.<p>This is simply because (La-)TeX is not a context-free language. If it was, you could parse all the paragraphs of content and feed them into, say, grammarly. Then you could correct your issues and automatically apply the fixes. As it stands now your only choice is to use a spell checker that already &quot;understands&quot; LaTeX. Unfortunately, that understanding is guaranteed to be wrong at some point.<p>Regarding the typesetting aspects: I always wondered how much performance one could get out of a &quot;modern&quot; replacement for TeX. Asides from the time it takes to typeset a 100+ page book with some TikZ elements, the results are already quite close to perfect, IMO.
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lewis500over 6 years ago
Latex lets you write equations quickly. Whether that makes it worthwhile to learn depends on how many equations you write and how quickly you want to be able to change them.<p>I also like being able to write my papers in vscode, with all the shortcuts and vim settings that I’ve gotten used to from coding. If Vim is second nature to you, it’s frustrating to have to switch over to ms word. Vscode has a good latex plugin.<p>That said, it did take some getting used to. Anything hard and potentially useful can become a “fetish” whereby we fool ourselves it’s the usefulness that motivates us but really it’s the hardness. I recall a time when I tried to use matplotlib to format all my plots, with labels and such. Horrible experience but I was really proud of these ugly graphs I’d make entirely from code. Then one day i just started saving them and opening them in illustrator for all the bells and whistles. Haven’t looked back.
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CarVacover 6 years ago
A perfect example of the Blub Paradox wherein the author cannot realize the power of a tool superior to what they&#x27;re used to, and dismisses it as useless because &quot;I don&#x27;t need those features&quot;.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;wiki.c2.com&#x2F;?BlubParadox" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;wiki.c2.com&#x2F;?BlubParadox</a>
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staredover 6 years ago
Yes, it takes much more effort to write in LaTeX than in a &quot;normal&quot; word processor.<p>Though, for managing complex things (e.g. citations, equations, being able to change formatting of everything in a consistent way), a typical word processor is not enough.<p>And when it comes to typesetting, people - show me something even close to the level of LaTeX beauty. I bet that with LaTeX default(ish) settings I can create a book with better typesetting than 90% found in a bookstore.<p>Disclaimer: wrote quite a few dozen things in LaTeX, my PhD thesis included. For casual writing and blog posting I use Markdown or Google Docs. But for a book, I would go for LaTeX (or at least - convert to it at some point).
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ecshaferover 6 years ago
as a physics student I learned latex and became pretty proficient in it. I do write in latex often and the author misses a few major points. The main point it misses is the issue of how to write a paper fluently if i have a lot of equations or symbols. Here is the case when just write in word is not sufficient.
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mnlover 6 years ago
People use LaTeX because they have to write equations —besides referencing and quoting them, such a pleasure without it— and the alternatives suck. If the author of this obtuse rant doesn&#x27;t need equations in print and to begin with hasn&#x27;t bothered to ask anybody about their reasons for using it before making assumptions, I don&#x27;t understand what&#x27;s interesting about his personal views on something he can&#x27;t get.<p>Too bad, because making references&#x2F;bibliographies in LaTeX also sucks less than the alternatives. Yeah, it&#x27;s not WYSIWYG, if you need WYSIWYG use something else. I hate clicking for hours in WYSIWYG equation editors, I can say that because I&#x27;ve had to do it too many times and it&#x27;s soul-crushing. BTW, your old Equation Editor objects can&#x27;t be opened anymore using supported Microsoft products. There are millions or hundreds of millions of those out there but they couldn&#x27;t care. This might teach us something etc.<p>There&#x27;s also a fish story about the reasons for arXiv requiring LaTeX back then: besides looking nice it really is a crackpot filter.
yesenadamover 6 years ago
(2016)<p>I read this in 2017, and..early in 2018 spent months getting good at LaTeX&#x2F;TikZ (using TexShop), and getting some idea about TeX. It&#x27;s been amazing, well worth the time invested already. For the first time, I have organised notes on everything, including my programming. And it looks lovely, it&#x27;s a pleasure to look over, makes me want to do more.
cschmidtover 6 years ago
What a weird argument. It seems to me that LaTex is used so much because it is the fastest way to type math equations, once you get good at it. If you don&#x27;t have math in your paper, then maybe he has a point. But whenever I have lots of equations, there is nothing better. He kind of ignores this part, as far as I could see.
muninover 6 years ago
There are cynical and practical reasons to use LaTeX.<p>The cynical: While most conferences in CS advertise both a LaTeX and Word template for submissions, if you submit an article in Word, it seems quite likely it will be desk-rejected for being quackery, possibly without even being read. Is this fair? No. Has the scientific&#x2F;mathematical community lost out on any great ideas due to this prejudice? Probably not. Think of this as the ultimate, final form of the clear plastic binder from Calvin and Hobbes, except Calvin was right all along and you probably can get away with saying that bats are bugs if you write it in LaTeX. This says more about the process of science than it does LaTeX.<p>The practical: I can think of three pragmatic reasons.<p>It seems that nowadays, good science is collaborative. Single author papers are rare. How is it that multi-author papers are written? Writing in a text-based markup language allows co-authors to easily send each other changes and keep a versioned history without having to worry about &quot;track changes&quot; and using file names as tags, and worrying about cross-compatability between ancient version of Office on Mac and Windows and that one person who only has Linux and so opens things in Libre.<p>In my experience, people do want to get into the weeds with formatting in LaTeX for many reasons, good and bad. For example, how can we shave off two lines of text so we&#x27;re within the page limit (yes, even though the proceedings will all be published electronically we will get desk rejected for being one page over the page limit where the only thing on the last page are two lines from the bibliography, c&#x27;est la vie). That is a bad reason. But good reasons could include improving the look and feel of a document, or controlling where figures are placed, or drawing figures using TikZ. Additionally, having the sum total of the formatting in plain text has advantages. Do you think that undo really un-does everything in Word? Can&#x27;t you remember some times where you do something, but then un-do and then do &quot;the same thing&quot; again and a different result occurs? LaTeX has many foibles but that is not one of them. Though, of course, sometimes I will wish you luck in understanding exactly why what you wrote in LaTeX works the way it does now. But for example, it is possible to define new mathematical symbols, operators, etc. in LaTeX in a way that is not possible in word processors.<p>The third pragmatic reason is that everyone else already uses it and some day or another your text will need to be turned into LaTeX for publication. I used to keep a lab notebook in Markdown and sometimes I would feel the desire to copy and paste some text from my lab notebook into a paper (if what I wrote was particularly lucid or well written, or was at least a good place to start from). This almost never ended well. If you have a draft of the paper in Word you might easily spend many days converting it from Word into LaTeX. If it&#x27;s sufficiently complicated you might never get it converted. This could be a barrier to getting collaborators or submitting at all.<p>I think that everyone that works with LaTeX, knows, deep down, it is absurd, and the arguments the author runs into are not really arguments anyone would stand by if pressed. I think if anyone is going to write something entirely in prose, that they will never care about the versioned history of or want collaborators on, and don&#x27;t care if the finished product looks good or bad, you can use a word processor, or at least, this is my criteria for whether or not I use a word processor. Am I drafting an outline of how we&#x27;re going to write the proposal? That happens in Google docs. Am I actually writing the proposal? That happens in LaTeX, because I want control over the typesetting to fit in the page limit, I want it to look good, and I want collaborators to be able to edit the document and send me plaintext patches rather than docx with track changes maybe or maybe not enabled.
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man-and-laptopover 6 years ago
I use Markdown with an HTML preview. I don&#x27;t have to punch the wall because of syntax errors, unlike with Latex. I use Pandoc to make it look the same as a Latex-generated PDF.<p>I&#x27;m thinking of switching to AsciiDoc as I&#x27;m running into some of the limitations of Markdown.
superfistover 6 years ago
I fully agree with this article. Let say it clear, LaTeX is so old fashioned nowadays.<p>Lack of default UTF8 support. Even if you will fix it, good luck with additional tools like BibTex. For God&#x27;s sake how this can be still an issue in XXI century?<p>Lack of TrueType Fonts support. Have to use tools like XeTeX.<p>Beamer? Give me a brake, look at all those tamplates. Almost all of them looks like from 90ths<p>LaTeX scripting language is so verbose and odd that after few weeks of not using it you forgot most of the syntax.<p>Is it so hard to create new tool (LaTeX 2.0) that would base for example on superset of HTML5, CSS and JavaScript so we can get rid of that crap?
yiyusover 6 years ago
&gt; Free and open source software has a strong tendency towards being difficult to install and get up and running. TeX and LaTeX are no exception.<p>Setting up a LaTeX environment in Windows can be difficult if you do not want to install one of the very big suites (although being honest, who is worried about 2GB when you need more space for something like printer &quot;drivers&quot;?). However, in most Linux distributions, you just choose LaTeX in your package manager and it works. And this is the case for most free and open source software. I do not know about Macs.
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akvadrakoover 6 years ago
Why would you hand-write LaTeX if you don&#x27;t like it? You can just use LyX, basically a structured WYSIWYG word processor.
Koshkinover 6 years ago
While LaTex is nice (and Texmacs is almost perfect), it seems the future is in automatic recognition of the mathematical handwriting. (I cannot imagine a professor giving a lecture using LaTex and a large screen instead of the whiteboard.)
AnyTimeTravelerover 6 years ago
I have to confess that I mainly use \LaTeX for almost all my studywork, because I have my templates for it, automated my workflow with scripts, and I don&#x27;t think I ever want to draw an automata again without the tikz package...
Madeindjsover 6 years ago
I tried LaTeX but I found the import statements very messy. Also I spend many times to improve output for Listing (for example). So I thinks tools like markdown or Asciidoctot way more easy and more comfortable than LaTex....
jancsikaover 6 years ago
Why aren&#x27;t research papers scrolls like the web is?<p>And why aren&#x27;t equations animated already? When I mouse over onethere should be a bunch of example numbers cascading over the equals sign splatting onto a transient graph.<p>I want my jetpack.
cozzydover 6 years ago
Everytime I try to use a word processor it&#x27;s full of random j&#x27;s and k&#x27;s. Thank goodness overleaf V2 reintroduced git integration because my collaborators love using overleaf for some reason.
leni536over 6 years ago
An other reason to use LaTeX: it&#x27;s text, so you can throw it in a VCS.
lallysinghover 6 years ago
Has this guy seen pandoc?
cvansiclenover 6 years ago
I&#x27;m a physicist who writes research papers using the freeware package &quot;LyX&quot; (based on LaTeX). It&#x27;s very flexible and easy to use. I highly recommend it!
LordHeiniover 6 years ago
Lets not forget that a lot of people like myself, can not be bothered with even thinking about design.<p>The main reason i write stuff in either plain text or LaTex is, that i do not want to spend even a second on figuring out the height oft a heading.<p>Especially if you are 2 pages in and have to remember random numbers for text size in listings or whatever.<p>Every document looks like crap when i try to do it manually and on top it wastes my time fidgeting with widths and heights.<p>I leave the design to people who now what they are doing (not me) and have the computer do the tedious formatting stuff.<p>Also you can put those Tex docs in source control.<p>And if you don&#x27;t like how the document looks, choose a different theme and recompile.
zapzupnzover 6 years ago
&gt; Comparing good use of LaTeX with poor use of word processors is unfair; the most that can really be said is that you are more likely to be introduced to LaTeX in a class taught by someone who really knows how to use it, and more likely to be introduced to a word processor by playing around with it or under the informal instruction of someone who doesn’t understand it very well, and that, for this reason, the number of people who use LaTeX but don’t use its document-structuring features is probably close to zero while the number of people who use word processors and don’t is enormous.<p>I agree with this very much. My husband and I wrote our Masters theses with LaTeX so that we could support various layout features with relative easy. I created a LaTeX template, and all we needed to do was write our chapters and sections in separate files. A bash script parsed the template and chapter files twice, and spat out a nice PDF.<p>Oh boy, did I ever get my butt kicked by the hassle of LaTeX support for custom CJK fonts. Oh good, just use that package. Oh no, that package doesn&#x27;t work unless you use that engine. No, that engine doesn&#x27;t support custom fonts, use a different one. Oh no, this other engine doesn&#x27;t support that package, but here&#x27;s a similar package whose arcane settings you need to tweak just right. It took nearly a week for me to get my template to match the university style guide without throwing hissy fits after each compilation — and then I added BibLaTeX to the mix, and it&#x27;s a wonder the wall doesn&#x27;t bear an imprint of my head getting my inline APA references to respect those font and layout choices, too!<p>For our purposes, just writing our theses in Pages would&#x27;ve been a hundred times simpler. After we submitted our theses, I created a Pages template, modified all the paragraph and character styles, set our preferred fonts with CJK support, checked that the line heights were consistent, double-checked the paragraph and line spacing, saved the template, and we&#x27;ve never looked back.<p>I&#x27;m with the author in that I&#x27;m absolutely fine with sane defaults, and I&#x27;m sure most people are, but sane defaults for an international world. I&#x27;m glad scientists and engineers have an easy way to typeset complicated equations and what have you, but it&#x27;s such a pain in the neck to (a) support non-ASCII characters (b) in a font that you like (c) with consistent line height when using CJK fonts.<p>Just my two cents as a non-scientist who really loves the power of LaTeX but obviously has different needs to most of its users in support of the author&#x27;s message that writing documents in LaTeX is not some universal ideal for every writer.
mcguireover 6 years ago
(See section 7.)<p>Yes, I, too, fellow human, like reading rectangular 7.5&quot; × 9&quot; blocks of space-and-a-half 12pt Times New Roman.
sigi45over 6 years ago
Had a small CV in latex.<p>It sucked.<p>Took too much effort to install it on window. Didn&#x27;t touch it for a year and it stopped working on a newer Ubuntu version which I had to fix.<p>I rewrote it in HTML and css.<p>Anyway one thing which just sucks: research papers in latex look all the same and are equally bad to read. Not unbearable bad but nothing for the eyes.<p>Someone just should write a research PDF paper viewer :-(
mettamageover 6 years ago
I&#x27;ll bite as a LaTeX <i>and</i> Google Docs fetishist. Don&#x27;t worry, I&#x27;m not taking this argument too seriously but if you happen to find some good arguments in there, please do tell!<p>&gt; Seriously, anyone who believes that making people type this…<p>Just an introductory argument against it, not going into that. I&#x27;m looking for meat. Hmm... meat :)<p>&gt; I know a number of academic authors who seem to spend considerable amounts of time doing that. I shan’t say that this is worse, but is it really better?<p>I did that too, but just because I wanted to be geeky. Was it useful? No. Would I have done this in a word processor? No. But the fact that I get to enjoy LaTeX by being geeky gives me a good feeling to return to it and write in it. Sounds like I have a fetish? I do! And not only one ;-)<p>&gt; When it comes to stopping people from creating documents in purple 28pt Comic Sans, teaching them all to use LaTeX is a lot less efficient than stating that you will refuse to read anything that doesn’t match the style guide.<p>But LaTeX does have better alignment and justification algorithms. You won&#x27;t see the difference, unless you&#x27;re starting to compare it with a word processor [1].<p>&gt; LaTeX does less to prevent authors from getting on with writing documents than TeX does. But if neither of the two existed, and you had to come up with something, right now, in 2016 – would it really be a markup language?<p>It depends, I see that people use Markdown for these reasons. And for my resume writing this is definitely true. The template also looks quite nice and I wouldn&#x27;t know how to design a beautiful resume.<p>&gt; we have LaTeX evangelism and the false implication that word processors don’t facilitate structured writing at all.<p>I wrote big documents in Word, Google Docs and LaTeX. I prefer LaTeX (my Gdocs fetish is with short documents or any psychology paper I&#x27;d need to write collaboratively).<p>&gt; In sum, the case for writing in LaTeX is more than a little weak.<p>My reasons:<p>1. Automatic reference list generation (never saw psych. students use it in Word). I still don&#x27;t know APA but I never got minus points for my bibliography.<p>2. The ability to comment. This has been huge for me (as in 10% to 20% better grades in writing huge) Yes, you can do this in Word and yes it also distracts me, when I do this on Overleaf it doesn&#x27;t distract me. If I want to read, I read the PDF, if I want to write or edit and get meta information, I type.<p>3. Super quick restructuring thanks to include. There have been many times where I needed to quickly move +30 pages to a completely different location. It just takes one line.<p>4. Crash resistant: one time there was this psychology student who had her Word document crashed and unsaved. I had to use the command line to copy some temporary saved file that Word didn&#x27;t recognize (apparently...) and tweak it in order to restore it. It took me an hour. LaTeX is a text file.<p>5. Tikz: I needed to create a graph and wanted to do it programmatically. Tikz is love, Tikz is life.<p>6. Knitr: I wanted to be ultra precise and focus on purely reproducable research, with Knitr you can put R formulas into LaTeX and calculate stuff. I handed in my source and PDF, my psychology teacher thought I was a wizard.<p>7. Different thinking cycle: by hitting compile and waiting for a bit you get some idle time to mind wander. For me it takes the pressure off and sometimes makes me anxious to see the result.<p>8. Fetish effect: you start to care about typography and the like (see [1]). Sometimes it isn&#x27;t the programming language itself but the community behind it that makes it so powerful (Hello JavaScript! NodeOS is wonderfully hilarious! ;-) ).<p>9. Wizard effect: psychology students would leave me alone because they had no clue what I was doing. It also made me look smart :P Is this an argument? Hmm... I have a fetish, you pick out the good ones ;-)<p>10. Placing images neatly immediately: oh wait, nope this is a downside. Unless you just put them all in the back which is what I do. It is also kind of neat because I tell people to print 3 bundles: (1) the text, (2) the images and (3) the bibliography and put them side by side so they can cross-reference things a lot faster. And with LaTeX include statements it&#x27;s easy to create 3 different PDFs as well.<p>11. Writing prose: whenever I want the feeling of &quot;ohhh I&#x27;m a writer now&quot; I open up LaTeX get a default template and start writing immediately. It beats Calibri by a landslide.<p>12. Just knowing that I have a programming language on hands. Whenever I have a programmatic problem, I can immediately use LaTeX. This is especially handy for: (1) bibliography references (a .bib file is secretly a database in disguise!) and (2) for making API calls to public data sets (have never done this but I could see the need to do it).<p>13. Oh yea, it&#x27;s free. Students have no money, err... I meant they are in debt. So free is nice. It&#x27;d be better if they give students money but that&#x27;s a utopia for another day.<p>Let&#x27;s leave it on 13, consider it my lucky number ;-)<p>[1]: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;nitens.org&#x2F;taraborelli&#x2F;latex" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;nitens.org&#x2F;taraborelli&#x2F;latex</a>
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jayalphaover 6 years ago
TLDR: Idiot tries to write document in Latex, fails, blogs about it.
mlthoughts2018over 6 years ago
This article is embarrassingly bad. It attempts to do a literary critique of written statements of the benefits of latex, and analyzes zero actual use cases or implementations.<p>Tex is such a powerful tool. It makes me sad to see someone dismiss it likely because of unpleasant first learning curve, which is also why a lot of people dismiss vim or emacs.<p>When I was a freshman in college, an upper classmen friend advised me to learn TeX, and helped me through writing several documents. That advice &amp; help was absolutely priceless.<p>Today I work in a typical tech company environment, and my team writes most of our technical documentation, sales engineering presentations, in-house tech presentations, and even recently some supporting documents for patent applications, all in LaTeX, all stored in version control in one of our repositories.<p>We can do real code review on technical documentation changes, have the power of many latex packages, beamer, etc., and even build versioned PDFs via our continuous integration tooling.<p>In some cases we also combine latex source with Mako templates and have actual software that can “push button” update all sorts of charts for new data, client-specific requests, etc.<p>It is a very powerful tool.
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