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Why the 8 Hour Workday Doesn’t Make Sense

156 pointsby lifestyleigniover 14 years ago

25 comments

grellasover 14 years ago
There is no magic to working 8 hours every day or any other number for that matter.<p>Before the industrial revolution, most people were farmers. They got up at sunrise and typically worked long, hard days in the fields - workdays that were not circumscribed by any arbitrary time limit but rather defined by whatever it took to deal with the exigencies of each day.<p>The 8-hour day, as some sort of idealized goal, came about as a direct result of the industrial revolution. With people moving to cities and taking up factory work, reformers began to characterize such work situations as exploitative, particularly of children but also of adults in terms of length of hours worked in physically demanding situations. The answer for reformers lay in having governments prescribe maximum normative work periods, with anything in excess of the prescribed maximum being deemed extraordinary and warranting extraordinary compensation. Hence, in America, we eventually got the 8-hour day and the 40-hour week. (See, e.g., <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day</a> for an overview).<p>I don't think "corporate America" has any particular stake in the 8-hour day. If anything, employers would undoubtedly <i>want</i> to have the power to shape the work schedules of employees in more flexible ways, especially by being able to freely demand longer work hours at normal compensation as a condition of continued employment. Of course, this would require repeal of the wage-and-hour laws that today proscribe any such thing. My point, though, is that it is those laws and not any scheme by employers that keeps the 8-hour structure in place as the normative work environment.<p>Bottom line: given pure freedom of contract, people could work any schedules they want and, in fact do so (that is what it means to be in business for yourself); however, given the problems arising from pure freedom of contract, the law imposes rigid limits deemed beneficial from a societal perspective on what may be expected of employees. That, I believe (and, I don't think, any other major factor), is what requires most people to work 8-hour schedules as their normative workday, at least in the U.S.<p>On a final note: the typical startup environment is really a throwback to the freedom of farming days because, in the earliest stages, there basically are no formal employees but rather just founders working round-the-clock like madmen for what might often be described as "below dirt wages," and, in later stages, there are large numbers of "exempt" engineers who are not subject to the overtime rules and hence who are also working insane hours - thus, not too many 8-hour days in your prototypical startup. I don't think most of the participants regard this as exploitation, probably because most of it is self-driven, i.e., most such people want to drive themselves hard in order to succeed.
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amalconover 14 years ago
I happen to agree with the premise, but really, this is not a well-stated case.<p><i>But thousands, if not millions of people commute to work every single day.</i><p>Come on. Thousands, if not millions? They say that the number of people in Manhattan alone increases by a million during the day. More importantly, though, this has <i>absolutely nothing to do with the 8 hour workday</i>.<p>You still need to travel from wherever you live to wherever you do your work; the only way to solve this is to move those places closer together (maybe even to the same place).<p><i>In fact, I’m willing to bet that most people aren’t doing anything for 40% of the working week.</i><p>Assuming that this is true, there are a variety of alternate hypotheses. For example, this problem is pretty much exclusive to knowledge workers. Perhaps knowledge workers need "breaks" just as physical laborers do, but because the culture discourages it, they invent their own "breaks".<p><i>Today, human creativity is at an all time high because less and less people are working in offices.</i><p>This is self-contradictory: either human creativity is at an all-time high, or it's reduced by working in offices. After all, there was a time when nobody worked in offices. I'd wager that the proportion of humans who work in offices is actually <i>increasing</i>, even if you only look at Western cultures. Of course, I'd hardly say that human creativity is at an all-time high either (even for Western cultures alone, that was during the Renaissance).
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ulfover 14 years ago
"Unhappiness: It seems that the typical 9to5er is living for the weekends. Radio stations say things like “it’s hump day, you’re almost there.” Almost where? Why are we constantly trying to get a destination other than where we’re at?"<p>This is an interesting point that I realized myself not long ago. A lot of people want to get from weekend to weekend, from vacation to vacation. It is a great escape. Their everyday lives somehow seem not very worth living to them. What I find amazing is how many people admittedly live that way, instead of changing something about their everyday life (especially work). Regarding the percentage of our awake time that we work over the course of our lives, it cannot be very healthy to say: Come saturday everything will be alright.
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iantimothyover 14 years ago
Inefficiency - "You should blame the system that forced you to work within the structure of the 8 hour work day."<p>When you are expected to work 8 hours a day, the problem is not that you fill your time with useless shit and then become unproductive.<p>The problem is that you feel like you need to demonstrate or show to the world that you're doing work for the whole 8 hours, or more specifically, you need to show that you're not slacking off for too long.<p>So, let's take programmers as an example. I've had colleagues who alt-tab A LOT. Basically, 15 minutes in the IDE, tab out, 5 minutes of chatting. 15 minutes back to the IDE, 5 minutes back to browsing. For a 8 hour day, that's 75% of the time working. Good right? NO.<p>Context switching is expensive. A large part of the 15 minutes of work in the IDE is resetting the frame of mind to work.<p>Now why do people context switch. Simple. Micro-management from project managers, team leaders, bosses ...<p>If I, as a team leader, look over at your screen and see you surfing the net for 1 full hour, I'll get pissed. But if you alt-tab a lot, there is a good chance when I'm spying over your shoulder, you're on the IDE. Good worker!<p>I hate it. Which is why when I had my own team, I told my guys, you want to surf, sure, spend as long as you want. But when you code, focus on the coding for a full X amount of time. So, I tell them, you want a break, surf for 30 minutes. But make sure you get full one and a half hours of coding done first. Plan what you need to do, tell the team what you aim to achieve, and do it.<p>I also find that when people don't need to pretend to work, and can rest in peace chatting, surfing, they tend to be less stress.<p>Another example, sleeping in the office is a big no-no. So what do people do? They run off to the stairs to sleep. Or to the toilet. Ridiculous. If my guy has been pulling all nighters, I think it is perfectly fine for him to rest his head on the desk for a while.
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space-monkeyover 14 years ago
Henry Ford found that his factory workers were more productive <i>per week</i> at 40 hours than 48 hours. It's not a big surprise that what worked in his factory isn't ideal for every job almost a century later.
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prosaover 14 years ago
Would you be willing to work 50% fewer hours, for 50% less pay?<p>Most employers are willing to soak up the waste, in order to have access to their staff throughout the work day. And most employees are eager to get the extra pay, even if they aren't spending the extra hours productively.<p>As an entrepreneur, I would love a 20 hour a week job that paid $40K a year -- it would provide financial stability and free time, allowing me to bootstrap businesses indefinitely. Most people aren't looking for that type of position, however. They're looking to maximize take-home pay.
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sp4rkiover 14 years ago
The system is broken by this need to have everyone available at one specific time frame. The best experiences I've had working for tech companies is when the culture is basically "We don't care if you come in or not, or when you work, just get stuff done." Of course there's a few exceptions, for example if a in-person meeting is required, everyone is expected to attend (unless you're in a different area/country, in which case just use video chat to 'be there').<p>When I'm on a roll I don't want to stop working, as a matter of fact, I once got to the office at 6am (I avoided traffic commuting at this time) on a Monday and left at 2pm Thursday. Although I didn't sleep at all, which was not a healthy thing to do, not only did I finish a three week task in 80 hours, but I ended up automating a bunch of processes, and fixing a bunch of bugs. I easily did a months work (probably more) in that time frame. Not only was I awarded a bonus, but I was expected not to work for a 15 days, of course I was till being payed as if I were still working. In contrast, I've had days where the only productive time I've had are two or three hours, and that's OK to, as long as you're reaching your goals.
icegreenteaover 14 years ago
How does commuting fit in this? The problem of commuting is related to the fact that majority of commuting is synchronized to within 2 ~2-3 hour periods. As long as we have this happening, the 'naive' argument is that commuting actually argues for longer work days with less days of work. 4x10 or something, so the travel:work ratio is better.<p>Even a more flexible work schedule (for everyone) is not necessarily the solution. The fact that most people will be working during the day will mean that there will always been surges ~8-10 and ~4-6. It might lessen it's effect, but it'll still be there, and after the initial adjustment period, will seem every bit as unproductive and annoying.<p>Commuting isn't going to get better unless a very large percentage switches to work at home, or lives within walking/biking distance of their workplace, or everyone accepts some great overlord who coordinates everyone's travel and work time to minimize peak traffic (I'm sure the relevant algorithms already exist).
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hasenjover 14 years ago
In most Arab countries, the typical work cycle is 6 hours per day, 6 days a week. Recently it shrank to 5 days a week; I'm not sure if the hours-per-day increased.<p>Typically it was from 8 to 2.<p>The same goes for school. High school (IIRC) was from 7 to 1, or something like that.
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rythieover 14 years ago
Employees want to earn the same amount every month and everything in their life is based on that, rent/mortgage, bills, loans etc. Employers end up meeting this need by making employees work a set amount of hours a month. People typically can't deal with less or more money a month in sensible way. Sometimes there isn't much for employees to do, but that's a risk the employer either takes or should fix. Some employers have a flexitime system to ease this a little.<p>The 9-5 is a result of those factors and there are alternatives, start a product business or do freelance work.
TorKlingbergover 14 years ago
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I have always wondered when Americans talk about working 9-5 for 8 hour days. Does that mean you get paid for lunch time? Or do you not eat lunch?<p>Swedish also work 8 hours days (or slightly less), but lunch hour is not included. Programmers, even at big companies, generally get to choose which 8 hours. 7-4, 8-5, 9-6, 10-7, either is fine.
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Pyrodoggover 14 years ago
Looking at the 8-hour day from the inside, employee, perspective is one thing. But it's not the only one.<p>There is another reason for the 8 hour workday, maintaining real-time business-to-business interactions with a single shift workforce.<p>An expectation has been built up that businesses will be open from 9-5. This allows businesses to handle person to person interactions on an expected schedule. As a rule, if you need to contact someone for business you call them during this time.<p>Some companies can do with the delayed response form of email but phone and face-to-face conversations still hold weight in non software centric companies.<p>Some companies might establish their own culture, between a limited number of parties they interact with. However, if businesses at large started shifting their hours all over the place it would make things very confusing for a new player to establish business with them.
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zavulonover 14 years ago
So what's the alternative? I don't think the author is offering any ...
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dinedalover 14 years ago
This is good brouhaha down with the man confirmation bias feeding writing, but...<p>-The commute has nothing to do with the work day. If you work less or more, you still have to commute to get there to do the work.<p>-The author presents no alternative, except hints at the digital nomadic work style. If you're going to try to dismantle a structure that, as written in the article, has kept big business in America running for so long, please provide a reasonable sounding alternative so if we agree with you we can do something about it.
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InclinedPlaneover 14 years ago
Within the past few generations, physical labor jobs have diminished while knowledge worker jobs have risen. Along with that, more and more knowledge worker jobs have become creative.<p>The traditional norms of working hours, work environment, management techniques, etc. established from past eras where physical labor dominated work are no longer relevant (and in some cases actively harmful) when it comes to knowledge work and especially artistic and creative work. Worse yet, many people do not appreciate or acknowledge the creative nature of many of these new jobs (software development being an excellent example).<p>As a result most working environments for a lot of modern creative work are wholly dysfunctional. Is it any wonder then why job churn is so incredibly high in the tech sector? If you're working in a dysfunctional environment then you are much more likely to switch jobs for a little extra pay or merely for a change.<p>Unfortunately, a lot of labor law is also very heavily biased toward physical labor as the model for all work. It'll take a very long time for these biases, bad traditions, and legal hindrances to be replaced by systems that actually work.
lukeqseeover 14 years ago
&#62; What’s amazing is that if we started to rethink the 8 hour workday in terms of a person’s creative capacity, instead of the number of hours they work, we may possibly tap into the best work that every individual has inside of them.<p>So he means we are now going to judge people by their output. Objectively. Like pay them for work produced, not time spent "working."<p>That's a great idea in theory.<p>What about the lazy, handicapped, and less-than-full-potential people? (I'm not at all clumping them as all equally bad.) They won't be able to produce as much, at least initially, and consequently receive less pay. Just wait until the ACLU hears about it.<p>We have a 9 to 5 structure because anybody can show up for 8 hours a day. If we don't change our value structure, our workday will never change.
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jonnathansonover 14 years ago
An interesting, but crucial aside: who still works a classic, 8 hour workday? It seems like an anachronism this day and age, at least in my experience. While companies technically demand 40 hours per week and no more, most corporate cultures unofficially pressure employees into 10 or even 12 hour days. 8 to 7 has been pretty typical of many of the firms for which I've worked. Sometimes those hours are extended on either end; sometimes they're condensed. But they're always more than 8 hours.
hoprockerover 14 years ago
The 8-hour workday is in large part due to the efforts of the labor movement at the turn of the last century. Prior to that, 10- or 12-hour days weren't uncommon or legally restricted. Subsequent to the initial reduction to 8 hours in workday hours, it was thought that the trend would continue. Robert Levine touches on the 8-hour workday in his book _A Geography of Time_, where he briefly describes W.K. Kellogg's initiative in the 1930's to reduce the workday to 6 hours at his Michigan factory. He felt that hard work would replace long hours. According to Levine, "For nearly two decades, by nearly every yardstick, Kellogg's brainchild worked brilliantly"[1]. It only met its doom after WWII, when, as a result of a policy linking higher productivity to increased wages, workers began demanding eight hours again to increase their overall income.<p>1. Robert Levine, _A Geography of Time_, p141.
safijover 14 years ago
8 hour work day is an INDUSTRIALIZED style of working, doesn't apply anymore in many areas, like conditions necessary for making software.
dspeyerover 14 years ago
Does anyone know the context this was written from? No sense compared to a 10 hour work day? 6 hour? Roughly 8 hours a day broken up as convenient? However long it takes to get a well-measured hunk of work done?<p>The article doesn't really mean anything without this.
jk8over 14 years ago
According to this page <a href="http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/whaples.work.hours.us" rel="nofollow">http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/whaples.work.hours.us</a> In the 1800 americans worked seventy hours or more per week
DanI-Sover 14 years ago
I barely remember what it is like to only work 8 hours a day...
kapitalxover 14 years ago
This article is merely stating the problem and not suggesting any alternatives or solutions.
anethover 14 years ago
From years of consulting I'm always surprised when I feel like I've worked a full day over 8 hours, but am only billing an honest 5-6. Distractions, life responsibilities, break time, etc. all mean 8 hours is not 8 hours. I do think most employers know this and it's acceptable - after all salaried employees are not paid by the hour and being there can be as important for overall productivity as it is for the same person to be individually productive.<p>Personally I'd be in favor of a 4 day 10 hour work week. I think it could be similarly productive, cuts down on commute time, and yields a better quality of life.
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micah63over 14 years ago
Clearly, he does not have any kids...
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