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π does not equal 4

148 pointsby iamelgringoover 14 years ago

20 comments

cscheidover 14 years ago
Geometric convergence is tricky. Specifically, the issue here is that uniform convergence does not imply convergence in length or area or any other such measures. (see figure 6 here: <a href="http://www.sci.utah.edu/~etiene/publications/verifiable-vis.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.sci.utah.edu/~etiene/publications/verifiable-vis....</a> . disclaimer - I'm a co-author)<p>Imagine a circle and its diameter. Now imagine two circles with half of the diameter, lined up so that the diameter lines align. Now split those two in four, etc. The circle becomes a snaking line whose total length doesn't change, and the snaking line converges uniformly to the line. Clearly, however, pi is not 1.<p>What you need is convergence in position _and_ angle. A curve that converges in position and angle _does_ converge in length: the reference I know which shows this is reference [9] on the above-mentioned paper. (edit: in case you don't want to download the gigantic file --- yay for publishing in graphicsy places --- the reference is: K. Hildebrandt, K. Polthier, and M. Wardetzky. On the convergence of metric and geometric properties of polyhedral surfaces. Geometriae Dediacata, (123):89–112, 2006.)
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extensionover 14 years ago
In a similar way, you can "prove" that sqrt(2) = 2 by approximating the diagonal of a unit square (length = sqrt(2)) by iteratively dividing two adjacent edges of the square (length = 2).<p>One interesting and useless law that this reveals is that the perimiter of any convex blob of pixels is equal to the perimiter of its bounding rectangle.
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pixcavatorover 14 years ago
Just because the conclusion is wrong it does not mean that there is no point here. What’s described is exactly what one has to deal with in digital image analysis. Here is a write-up and a link to a paper: <a href="http://inperc.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lengths_of_curves" rel="nofollow">http://inperc.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lengths_of_curves</a>. The paper proves essentially that there is no good way to approximate lengths of curves with any grid, even if the size of the mesh goes to 0.
RiderOfGiraffesover 14 years ago
Nice and fun, and brings into focus the definition of "distance" and how it interacts with the concept of a metric. Using the L&#60;sub&#62;1&#60;/sub&#62; metric gives a different value of pi than using the L&#60;sub&#62;2&#60;/sub&#62; metric. Obviously.<p>It's easy enough with arguments like this to show the "length" to be anything you choose. Such demonstrations are instructive.<p>EDIT: Changed lower-case ell to upper-case for clarity.
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a-prioriover 14 years ago
You can "disprove" the Pythagorean equation the same way, by taking the limit of the Manhattan distance between two points as the grid size approaches zero. It approaches d_x + d_y, not sqrt(d_x^2 + d_y^2).
jcampbell1over 14 years ago
Why would anyone assume that because a shape converges, the arc length must also converge?<p>A troll can also prove that 2 == 1 by continuously folding the peaks of an equilateral triangle down to the baseline.<p>Another fun one:<p>$1 = 100¢<p>$.1 = 10¢<p>$.1^2 = 10¢ ^ 2<p>$.01 = 100¢<p>thus<p>$1 = 1¢<p>Trollface
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jbappleover 14 years ago
When I first saw a "proof" like this, the explanation of its incorrectness was something like "limits don't preserve curve length". I wasn't satisfied with that answer until I took a first course in real analysis, which explained (some of) the reasons behind calculus.<p>Real analysis was very satisfying, in somewhat the same way that building low-level software or libraries is satisfying -- I got to understand the guts. It was also fun to learn about erroneous historical assumptions made due to insufficient rigor. IIRC, until at least the 1870s, it was believed that any continuous function must be differentiable almost everywhere, and that in fact this should be obvious. It turns out that one can construct continuous functions that are nowhere differentiable!<p>This was one of my favorite topics in the class:<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_of_the_real_numbers" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_of_the_real_number...</a>
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vilhelm_sover 14 years ago
Over at Everything2.com we discussed this 10 years ago: <a href="http://everything2.com/title/2%255E.5+%253D+2" rel="nofollow">http://everything2.com/title/2%255E.5+%253D+2</a>
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martincmartinover 14 years ago
For any given n, all the points of the "right angled fractal beast" lie within some distance epsilon(n) of the circle. As n increases, epsilon(n) approaches zero, so in the limit, you have a circle, and at every step along the way, the length is 4. It's just that the length of the resulting shape isn't the limit of the lengths of the sequence of shapes.
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huhtenbergover 14 years ago
A simpler and a bit more elegant version - <a href="http://i52.tinypic.com/2daesf4.png" rel="nofollow">http://i52.tinypic.com/2daesf4.png</a>
nazgulnarsilover 14 years ago
troll math/physics are the only 4chan releated things that consistently make me crack up.
cousin_itover 14 years ago
What... ouch. This is not math, this is... I don't even.<p>Read the post closely. The author introduces a set S of squarey curves approximating a circle. This set has an obvious correspondence with the natural numbers: there is curve #1, curve #2, etc. Then the author defines a function f: S-&#62;S that takes curve #n to curve #n+1. Wait, that doesn't sound right! The function f has no interesting structure whatsoever, it's exactly equivalent to defining f(n)=n+1 on the naturals. Of course, taking the "limit" of a function f: S-&#62;S makes no sense at all.<p>What would make sense is taking the limit of a certain function N-&#62;C, where N is the naturals and C is the set of all curves on the plane. That is, the limit of a sequence of curves (not of a function from curves to curves as the OP tried to say). To talk about such limits, you need to define what it means for a sequence of curves to converge - a "topology" on C. There are many ways to do that, some more outlandish than others. One way is <i>pointwise</i> convergence: assume a parameterization t-&#62;C_i(t) on each curves in the sequence, and require that C_i(t) converges co C_lim(t) for each t separately.<p>Now, pretty much any reasonable notion of "convergence" on the space of all curves has to <i>imply</i> pointwise convergence. That is, pointwise convergence is a very "weak" notion of convergence: if we have a sequence of curves that has a limit in some reasonable sense, then it had better coincide with the pointwise limit, dontcha think?<p>And here we come to the second facepalm moment in the post. Under pointwise convergence, the sequence of squarey curves under discussion does <i>not</i> converge to some "right angled fractal beast". It converges to the circle. As n grows, every point on S_n comes closer and closer to some point on the circle. Ain't nothing more to it.<p>Now the correct explanation for the original puzzle. Pointwise convergence of curves doesn't imply that their lengths converge to the limit's length. Hell, we don't even need 2-dimensional space to show that! A simple <i>straight line</i> will do. Imagine a human traveling a straight road of 1km length in this fashion: he takes two steps forward, then one step back, then repeats. In the end he will have traveled about 3km instead of 1km. As we make the human and his steps tinier and tinier, his movement looks smoother and smoother to an external observer, but he still travels 3km in total instead of 1. Or maybe (going back to the 2D space) the human could take a step left, then forward, then right; this would make his path look like a fine comb that approximates the straight line more and more closely, but it's always 3x longer. Something like this is happening in the original puzzle.<p>Finishing touch: there <i>are</i> notions of convergence where it's true that the length of the curves in the sequence always converges to the length of the limit. One such notion says that the <i>direction of travel</i> (velocity vector) must also pointwise converge to the velocity vector of the limit curve. Under this definition of convergence, the original sequence of curves does not converge, because it makes too many sharp turns.
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patio11over 14 years ago
You can also demonstrate this is incorrect by calculating the area of the parts of the square cut off, which is the sum of an infinite geometric series. You will find it doesn't equal the area of the unit square minus the area of the inscribed circle.<p>Here, let's try: the square is 1x1. Consider one quarter of the circle: radius of the circle is 1/2, half a diagonal of the square is sqrt(2) / 2, diagonal of the removed square is (rt(2) - 1) / 2. Area of the square removed is ((rt(2) - 1) / 2) ^ 2. (This is trivial via the pythagorean theorem, saving some math.)<p>Alright, that's the first square we accumulate. Now the magic happens: every step, we cut the square's side in half, but make two of them. Agree with me so far? Good. If we cut the side of a square in half, we cut its area to a quarter, but since we have two squares now the total area is 1/2 of the last square. Agree with me so far? Good. We can trivially sum infinite geometric series: t1 / (1 - r), where t1 is the first term and r is the fraction each term gets multiplied by. In this case, it turns out that in any one quadrant the sum of the series of squares removed is 2 * ((rt(2) - 1) / 2) ^ 2, or just (rt(2) - 1)^2 / 2.<p>Multiply by 4 to get the picture over all four quadrants, and we get 2 * (rt(2) - 1) ^ 2. A little simplification and we get 2 * (2 - 2 rt(2) + 1) = 6 - 4 rt(2)<p>So, we've got a unit square, so the area of the square is 1. If we subtract the area of the infinite series of squares, we get 4 rt(2) - 5 =~ .657. We expect the area of the circle to be pi / 4 =~ 0.7853975. Thus, the square minus and infinite series of squares doesn't approximate the known area of a circle at all.
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augustlover 14 years ago
This is similar to Zeno's paradox of Achilles and the tortoise: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenos_paradoxes#Achilles_and_the_tortoise" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenos_paradoxes#Achilles_and_th...</a><p>The paradox lies in "infinity" and "never". Achilles will overtake the tortoise when he's one atom away from the tortoise, and similarly at one point your corner removal will reach the atom level, where you can no longer reduce it and maintain a square shape.<p>At atom level, when your squares consist of three atoms in a L pattern, you can't reduce it further without distorting the squares<p>Assuming, of course, that atoms are the smallest particles.
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csomarover 14 years ago
Because in Infinity you can't predict things with sight. Actually, it seems like the rectangles have become a lined curve, but in reality they aren't. They are just too small to be noticeable.<p>4 - π will be that small, tiny difference.
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ADRIANFRover 14 years ago
The easiest way to informally prove that the demonstration is false is to imagine starting with a circle in a triangle instead of a circle in a square. Or with any other weird shape around the circle and follow the same "cutting" algorithm to infinity. This way you can prove that pi is equal to anything greater than pi.
gyomover 14 years ago
Same issue as with fractals. What's the length of Britain's coast ? Infinity ?
ciesover 14 years ago
try to find the perimeter of australia.. depending on the zoom level you find a different perimeter. :) if the 'troll' from the article adds smoothing to his 'ad infinitum' squarish circle then he finds pi.
fininover 14 years ago
Obvously, the science is not settled™.
sleight42over 14 years ago
There... are... FOUR... lights!
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