Ask Patio11: Why don't you make SEO tools?

I used to think there was some magic sauce to SEO - that only good content with proper promotion would get high rankings. I've worked with SEO consultants on every level. I've worked with two separate individuals who are extremely well known (sorry NDA prevents sharings names), hired writers, and outsourced work overseas. For my particular industry, which i won't share because it will identify me, my content is pretty much un-linkable. You don't want to talk about it. I paid a writer for years to write top quality content that is actually useful to users and promoted it accordingly. Because good content is what Google wants, right? Wrong.<p>After spending well over $100k in SEO i can tell you sadly the most effective tactic has been spam. Yep, tons of links on sites, setting up gateway pages that are focused on particular keywords, spamming social sites with links, setting up blogs to target keywords, etc.. I've hired/fired about 5 different companies in India and finally found one that is working magic for us.<p>Google's algorithm is not a mystery - most 'SEO' people will try to sell you some snake oil. I was paying 10k a month to a top name SEO consultant (very popular SEO book, well respected) and never felt so cheated in my life. Beyond the basics of SEO like semantic structure of your HTML and URL's - SEO is primarily a popularity contest.

My first guess is that he's smart enough to realise the somewhat greater competition for all the good keywords you'd be facing if your product was "SEO tools" compared to "bingo cards"...<p>If you had to choose _one_ vertical to be in, would _you_ chose one where every competitor in it knew all the dirty SEO tricks in the book?

I don't mean to be a jerk, and I'm going to be downvoted into oblivion for this, but I don't think Patrick is the brilliant SEO wizard some people on here make him out to be, certainly not anywhere near a Rand Fishkin type level.<p>He's an excellent writer and marketer, but it's not like he's privy to some magical SEO techniques that would explode SEO traffic.<p>I would be surprised if he uses SEO tools much himself. From what I've seen, he's very good at identifying small niches, creating good content, etc. Basically good SEO fundamentals, not cutting edge trickery.

For your future reference, I have an email address and answer at least half of all questions asked to it. (100% for elementary school teachers.)<p>1) Providing value in a scalable fashion in SEO is hard, because Google has an incentive to make it hard. If SEO were only as hard as AdWords, Google would lose billions of dollars. Google considers virtually any repeatable process that improves rankings to be black hat. I don't enjoy having to joust with a giant team of PhDs who have infinite budget.<p>2) The SEO tools space is hard. Small-scale website owners are often very skeptical that there is positive ROI in SEO. (There is positive ROI in SEO. Crikey, if you learn one thing from me this year, learn that.) You have to do <i>huge</i> amounts of teaching to raise people to the point where they can begin to benefit from it. That starts, literally, at "What is a search engine?", because most website owners <i>do not know</i>, especially in small business.<p>For marginally savvier website owners, like the average HNer, you can skip some of the teaching and proceed directly to "I don't want to pay you money for this." You've been on the same HN I have for the last year, right? We talk a good game about raising $50,000 each of a dozen angels and valuations in the tens of millions and whatnot, but what happens <i>every single time</i> someone suggests raising prices past, oh, $20 a month?<p><a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1510986" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1510986</a> <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1780348" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1780348</a> <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1357592" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1357592</a><p>SEO makes me thousands a month. I'm not interested in selling it for less than many hundreds a month, <i>at the low end</i>.<p>3) Enterprise sales is not my idea of fun. Selling SEO to people who really would seriously benefit from it -- companies which do a lot of transactions online -- requires a high touch sales process. I'm not incapable of that -- I do it for consulting -- but it isn't my passion in life, and it wouldn't scale easily without me building a sales force. That requires a whole lot of skills (hiring, managing salesmen, showing up promptly at nine to an office somewhere, etc) that I don't have experience with, natural aptitude for, or any reason to suspect that I'd be really good at.<p>4) What would it <i>do</i>, really? (Your "real" question.)<p>Broadly speaking,<p>+ SEO analytics: Hard to demonstrate value. Most obvious feature sets are well represented by free competitors. Significant competition from SEO training providers who like to throw in a bag of tools subscriptions to make the $N00 a month fee look cheaper.<p>+ Tools which purport to "do" SEO for you: if it works Google will call it black hat, if it doesn't work it is snake oil. I have seen an <i>awful</i> lot of snake oil.<p>+ Demand Media In A Box: Probably the best SEO tool I can think of writing -- automate topic selection and direct outsourced production of content for it. Let's hypothetically pretend that I both was capable of and wanted to write this: what is my incentive to selling it to people who pay little money and need lots of handholding when instead I could point it at any problem domain I wanted and make a million dollars <i>each time</i>?<p>5) What is the opportunity cost?<p>I'm pretty good at what I do: I make and sell software, and I do occasional consulting for other people who mostly make and sell software. Consulting is fantastically lucrative, and would (and has) helped me get together enough money to launch any software/service I care to.<p>I picked out one I thought was a good bet, and am busy implementing it. Ask me next December, but I am cautiously optimistic, in a way I have never been optimistic about SEO tools.<p>THAT SAID:<p>There may be a profitable, addressable market for SEO tools. There certainly is for SEO-related training/services -- SEOBook and SEOMoz are both doing quite well. YC has funded at least one SEO-related company.<p>I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole, though.

I have done loads of SEO research and no tool comes close seomoz.org . They have created their OWN index similar to that of google's . I would make a similar tool or maybe even better

Can this process really be automated in any way that Google would not consider black hat?