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Ask HN: Current and former FB employees, what's the other side to the story?

108 pointsby adpirzabout 6 years ago
Another day, another story of Facebook&#x27;s reach overextending, breaching privacy unnecessarily, and generally acting in some form of bad faith.<p>But business is clearly still good and it seems like they&#x27;re still able to recruit plenty of talent. So what&#x27;s the other side here? Internally, are there feelings of consternation about all the negative press or is there a bigger piece that is missed by it?<p>I&#x27;m really curious what the other side is here, especially given FB hasn&#x27;t slowed down at all despite all the press.

19 comments

fbemployee1234about 6 years ago
Throwaway for obvious reasons. Opinions are my own.<p>I joined in the last year. I had major issues with FB before, reflecting typical HN user stance. I joined because I was curious and their promises sounded like an amazing place to work.<p>And it is. They treat us better than any other company in terms of autonomy and input. Everyone has a tea seat at the table.<p>And what I’ve seen, the external perceptions don’t match the internal objectives. I hear real change from leadership, and most of the major issues are years old.<p>Fb has invested hugely in protecting elections, possibly more than any single government. They have doubled that on integrity, etc.<p>And realistically, I don’t think we know how to balance harm and good in the real world. I just don’t see tracking online activity as more harmful than the benefit that people get from the service. (Not so much US users, but the benefits to people in very poor countries are very real, and wouldn’t exist if the service didn’t monetize so well)<p>In short I don’t see them as an evil entity. They’re just a large one that is easy pickings for negative press. I used to work for the US government in a health research role; this feels similar.<p>When something is so massive and decentralized, the “bad press” events are gonna happen. I think FB, and especially Zuckerberg, have done a great job responding to these issues to try and solve them.<p>Remember, what Facebook is doing has never been done before. There are going to be mistakes.
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badfrogabout 6 years ago
I worked at FB for three years as a software engineer. The people I worked with basically believed:<p>1) The core product is good and useful to people&#x2F;society<p>2) Most of the negative articles about Facebook are based on some piece of truth but go out of their way to make things seem worse and more sinister than they really are<p>3) Zuck generally wants to do the right thing, but of course makes mistakes<p>4) Yes the company does bad things sometimes, but not significantly worse than Google or Amazon (which are the main places many FB employees would consider working if they left)
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sxpabout 6 years ago
Disclaimer: I work for a competitor of FB. Opinions are my own, etc.<p>There is an aspect of <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect</a> when hearing stories about FB. I&#x27;ve heard similar stories about various tech companies from major press outlets and the facts &amp; opinions in the stories directly contradict my own first hand knowledge.<p>Given this data, why should I trust press articles about FB when they&#x27;re written by the same journalists who are focused on maximizing revenue for their own companies? Most articles I see are ~10% cited sources and ~90% speculation.<p>Two examples of press stories that most technical people know are false are <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Satoshi_Nakamoto#Dorian_Nakamoto" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Satoshi_Nakamoto#Dorian_Nakamo...</a> and <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Supermicro#Allegations_of_compromised_hardware" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Supermicro#Allegations_of_comp...</a> . People with technical knowledge can evaluate those stories and realize that they&#x27;re incorrect, but others without technical knowledge probably believe the newspapers. Similarly, people at FB with insider knowledge probably realize that most of the press articles about FB are 90% incorrect and that FB is in the same moral league as all the other major tech companies.
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docker_upabout 6 years ago
Most of what the press reports is a distortion of the truth, or making something sound worse than it really is.<p>Sure there are issues but all companies have them, just like Google, Amazon, etc. There are a lot of good people doing good work here, and connecting the world for the better. You don&#x27;t hear about the 99.99% of the good things because that won&#x27;t encourage clicks for the news rags.<p>If the press took an interest in your company, or even you personally, no one would look good from their constant digging to make you look as bad as possible. Imagine if your worst moments in your life were publicized for everyone to see, without seeing all the good things you&#x27;ve done? People would think you&#x27;re an asshole as well.
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librishabout 6 years ago
It does feel like a lot of the news are misrepresented or skewed. Take CA as an example. This was FB acting as a developer portal and the following happened (to the best of my knowledge) using Apple as a substitute.<p>1. Your friend downloads a slick email app from company X on the AppStore<p>2. The OS warns you with a big blocking screen that this app wants to read all emails from your address book, your friend clicks allow and company X uploads your friend&#x27;s address book to their server for what they claim are some cool autocomplete and search features<p>3. Apple has also made company X to sign an agreement to not misuse the data in any way outside of what&#x27;s needed for &quot;core functionality&quot;<p>Later it turns out that company X took the data from their servers and sold it to someone else which means that your email address and any emails your sent to your friend are now leaked.<p>Now you can be mad at your friend, company X, or Apple and I feel like so much of the focus has been on &quot;Apple&quot; ie FB when the main piece of criticism is that perhaps users shouldn&#x27;t be trusted with a permission this broad (which had already been fixed 4 years earlier).
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wccrawfordabout 6 years ago
&quot;I&#x27;m really curious what the other side is here, especially given FB hasn&#x27;t slowed down at all despite all the press.&quot;<p>Shouldn&#x27;t this whole question be directed at the users of FB instead? If they don&#x27;t care enough about this to stop using FB, why would you expect the developers to care enough to give up part of their fat paycheck?<p>I personally refuse to work for companies that I think are likely to do business in a way that I think is unethical. But my ethics aren&#x27;t the same as everyone else&#x27;s, and I can perfectly well understand not caring about most of the &quot;privacy&quot; scandals that Facebook has if the users don&#x27;t care.<p>Everyone is entitled to give up their privacy whenever they want, and everyone should be aware at this point that Facebook plays fast and loose with that privacy. If they continue to post on FB after this, I can&#x27;t really feel sorry for them.<p>And for the record, I still use Facebook as much as usual. That isn&#x27;t a lot, but it&#x27;s some. I post only to my friends, and I only post things that I&#x27;d be willing to post on a public forum anyhow. Like any other tool, you have to be careful while using it.
throwaway-1283about 6 years ago
The other side is 90th percentile market pay...?<p>At a certain point in a company&#x27;s lifecycle, most employees shift from being intrinsically motivated (by the mission, the team, the leadership) to extrinsically motivated (by the money, benefits, and resume stamp). FB is no different, and that shift happened way before 2017. I would guess most people who happily work at FB did not care before Cambridge Analytica and do not post Cambridge Analytica.<p>If anything, I would guess FB employees are feeling relatively better now given the broad criticism on many tech giants (Amazon with cities&#x2F;labor issues; Google with gov&#x27;t censorship; Amazon&#x2F;Google&#x2F;MSFT with DoD controversies). The main thing I think going for FB is that they don&#x27;t (yet) compete for any military business, so no one&#x27;s accusing them of helping kill people at least.
taytusabout 6 years ago
I don&#x27;t see the complexity here. They pay competitive salaries and people don&#x27;t give a fuck about what FB does and accept the gig. Simple.<p>Being able to say: &quot;No, I don&#x27;t work here because of principles&quot; is something really nice but not everyone can afford to do.
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fbthrowaway2about 6 years ago
I work at Facebook. I may have the opportunity to work on a privacy-related product which, if implemented, would have prevented at least one recent headline. I&#x27;d like to get people&#x27;s thoughts: would working at Facebook on such a product be ethically-permissible? Does working at Facebook in a capacity that improves privacy for its users absolve me of that sin by association? What if I only work on such a product for some of my tenure?
notacowardabout 6 years ago
Current Facebook employee. I&#x27;ll try to keep this short.<p>Some of the things Facebook has done have made me sad, or angry. I do wish we could evolve toward that perfect balance of privacy, authenticity, connectedness, etc. more quickly. OTOH, I do see a lot of good people around me, many who share those concerns, and I do see progress being made, and I know none of us will make a damn bit of difference from the outside.
Bhilaiabout 6 years ago
I don&#x27;t work for FB but in my experience, such decisions are most often times are taken by Product Managers who do not understand privacy implications. They typically try to bypass security&#x2F;privacy teams to avoid the hassle of dealing with them. Also, Engineering teams are sometimes siloed and do not realize that the data they are messing with is sensitive in nature (MFA phone numbers in most recent case.) Most of these features aren&#x27;t designed with explicit malice, but usually to further a goal of linking more data, generating more insights, showing better ads and so on and thats what interests most engineers.<p>In many cases of-course, they have tend to hide behind user consent - &quot;The user consented to this very broad privacy policy which allows us to do whatever we want so it&#x27;s okay.&quot; Having said that, FB did hire a bunch of privacy experts to fix institutional issues.
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fbthrowaway221about 6 years ago
Because there is no negative consequences for anything as long as you meet your deadlines.<p>And you are fed constant propaganda about how you are making the world a better place by connecting people and freeing speech. You start to believe it.<p>And when you bring up ideas which actually make it hard to spread false information but might reduce engagement metrics, then you are laughed out of the room. Seriously.<p>Until Facebook&#x27;s stock price is affected by actual lawsuits, no one inside Facebook will ever be fired for generating negative news.
EngineerBetterabout 6 years ago
As a person who has never had a Facebook account, can someone explain what societal good they&#x27;ve done? I see none.<p>I see espionage on a massive scale. I see democracies weakened for profit. I see self-obsessed shallow folks constantly taking selfies to post online. I see the degeneration of political discourse into pithy statements that can be &#x27;liked&#x27;.<p>What good have they done, exactly? Helped people share photos and status updates?
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warp_factorabout 6 years ago
I would love for FB employees to explain to me how they justify that their product literally hooks fragile users to internet, creating chronic depression, FOMO etc etc.<p>To me, it is no different than Heroin given to a Junkie.<p>You just need to travel anywhere in the world and look at all the tourists spending their time Instagram-ing everything. On the other side of the screen you have fragile teens that get depressive because their life is not as good as the fake paradise that can be seen on Facebook&#x2F;&#x2F;Instagram.<p>This is the culture that Facebook and &quot;attention-grabbing&quot; social networks have created. As an employee at Facebook, you directly contribute to that! Yes, it is a symptom of something more deeply broken in society, but you act like Heroin to a Junkie, facilitating the intake.<p>If we had to number this, I would probably put Facebook and other predatory attention-grabbing networks (Youtube is another one) in my top 3 of worst things going on in the world right now.
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thisisitabout 6 years ago
Back at my hometown, a small village, we had a gangster. He made tons of money using his illegal empire. But he also took care of everyone around him. Even those who were not involved with criminal operations were taken care of.<p>The press wondered how could these people trust this gangster? What&#x27;s their thoughts&#x2F;feelings about smuggling etc being reported daily?<p>The answer was - &quot;This so-called gangster has built orphanages and donated to religious causes. He has been net positive to society. While this gangster does some bad things, the press is harsher on him. Media knowingly writes bad stories because they are jealous of his success or have hidden agenda. He just wants to do the right things and his heart is in the right place. But his is human and makes mistakes. And before you label him as the worst do look at those other gangsters. They are just as bad, if not worse, than our hero.&quot;<p>This is a story which repeats itself over and over again.
ann3thr3wabout 6 years ago
depends on the role: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theverge.com&#x2F;2019&#x2F;2&#x2F;25&#x2F;18229714&#x2F;cognizant-facebook-content-moderator-interviews-trauma-working-conditions-arizona" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theverge.com&#x2F;2019&#x2F;2&#x2F;25&#x2F;18229714&#x2F;cognizant-facebo...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.glassdoor.com&#x2F;Reviews&#x2F;Facebook-Reviews-E40772.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.glassdoor.com&#x2F;Reviews&#x2F;Facebook-Reviews-E40772.ht...</a>
warp_factorabout 6 years ago
You want to know the other side of Silicon Valley?<p>Download the app called &quot;Blind&quot;, where people talk openly while being anonymous.<p>What you see there is that everyone is trying to maximize their TC (Total Comp). For most people, that&#x27;s the only goal. The whole &quot;Let&#x27;s make the world a better place&quot; is something that was sold by PR people.<p>To talk more specifically about facebook, I have seen two attitudes in their employees:<p>1)They use Whataboutism when confronted: Basically they will show you that Google and Apple are also evil, so it is ok for them to work at FB.<p>2) They openly say that they know it is a bad company, but they treat employee very well and they are overly well paid so are ok with it.<p>For me, It makes me lose faith in engineering
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fbthrowaway3about 6 years ago
Going anon here, for obvious reasons.<p>People rationalize it two ways: 1. Whataboutism. Yeah, well, what about Google? What about Amazon? 2. Whatever, they pay me well and the perks are good.<p>My view is more nihilistic: Zuck is the same as he&#x27;s always been. This is the same dude who said &quot;They trust me, dumb fucks&quot;. Don&#x27;t get it twisted: Facebook is about data collection and data sales. Everything else is a happy smokescreen diverting user and regulatory attention to that purpose. Connecting people and all of that handwaving is a means to that end.<p>You trusted him&#x2F;us; dumb fucks. That&#x27;s basically about it.
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fbthrowaway212about 6 years ago
A little background: I was an intern at FB just before and during the whole CA thing unfolded and I&#x27;m returning back for another internship, hoping I&#x27;ll join full-time one day.<p>I had multiple offers from other Big-N companies and unicorn startups(some of them paying more than FB). But here&#x27;s why I <i>choose</i> to still work at FB:<p>1) The values and goals of the company and the people at the company are genuinely positive.<p>No PMs are going around wondering how can we profit off of innocent people. Goals for teams are oriented around the &quot;impact&quot;, for eg. how many small businesses are effectively gaining customers due to the new feature X, or is feature Y actually making people happy or if it&#x27;s good for them in long term etc. An example would be Facebook trying to make more &quot;meaning-full interactions&quot; on the platform while sacrificing on users spending more time on the platform looking at click-baits.<p>2) The company and the leadership accept blame and work on fixing the mistakes.<p>Unlike some other fruit company, Facebook has always(although sometimes not as soon as it should have), accepted the blame for the repercussions of being the disruptive platform it is. People in leadership personally take charge of the issue and work to make the platform better. I know a lot of people believe Zuck is pure evil from what they hear, but I don&#x27;t think a CEO who’s apathetic would be willing to pull the platform out of countries if the laws there don&#x27;t fit with the company&#x27;s morals and values. (Read - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.facebook.com&#x2F;notes&#x2F;mark-zuckerberg&#x2F;a-privacy-focused-vision-for-social-networking&#x2F;10156700570096634&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.facebook.com&#x2F;notes&#x2F;mark-zuckerberg&#x2F;a-privacy-foc...</a>)<p>3) Every individual employee&#x27;s voice is heard.<p>Anyone in any FB office around the world can personally ask the whole leadership any question every Friday in the company-wide Q&amp;A. And most often than not, these questions are complicated. Misinformation on WhatsApp leading to lynchings, what are we doing about it? Foreign governments intentionally interfering in government, did we know about it and if yes what&#x27;s our plan?<p>No question is a bad or stupid question. And yes, we get better answers than those PR statements. Knowing what happened in the technical gory details and what specific steps are being taken convinces us that necessary actions are being taken. I don’t know of any instance where the employees had to go on a strike and sign petitions to know why the company was working on some project which doesn’t align with the company’s morals.<p>4) Fb is doing something which has never done before, at a scale at which barely any company has ever reached.<p>All of us know how much responsibility we have working on such an impactful product. But that doesn’t mean we’ll stop trying new things. Those new things might not be good in the long run, but, there’s only one way to find out. If we think it’s gonna affect people’s lives positively, we’re gonna try it. Critique is expected and welcomed, even when it isn’t accurate. This may not morally align with everyone, but this is what I generally saw while working there and feel like it’s something I align myself with personally. Not being afraid to use the influence to try to launch something new and disruptive is not something everyone can agree with. And FB historically hasn’t done much research before launching products, but now seems to be taking the eventual possibilities seriously. It still doesn’t change the whole “hacking” culture of just trying out new stuff.<p>5) FB does care about privacy. Shocking, right?<p>From the limited 3 month view I have of the company, everyone is crazy about privacy. There are continuing discussions on how to deal with complicated situations, and teams dedicated to consulting other teams who might not have the necessary overview regarding the possible effects. Encryption is a hot topic, and research is being done on how bad actors can still be detected and reported based solely on the metadata, keeping the information private. And there’s no easy way to explain it, but media lately has been extremely biased against FB and reporting stories in a manner which distorts the reality of the events. Every small mistake(deliberate or not) will be exaggerated with click-baity headlines. I do believe that FB is completely responsible for whatever happened with CambridgeAnalytica, but reading some of the articles detailing it just made aware of the lack of technical knowledge and the intention to find out the bigger picture in most of the mainstream media.<p>6) We see the positive impact happening real time.<p>No newspaper will publish on the front-page about the FB communities which allowed LGBTQ people to connect in a country where’s it’s a crime. Or the fundraisers saving kids who got separated from their parents. Or the relationships which only came to existence because of the platform. Or the small businesses flourishing who previously didn’t have a chance to compete with the big dogs. Don’t get me wrong, bad things still do happen. There are instances of bullying, misinformation, stalking and a lot more. And people at FB are genuinely trying to limit that. But in the big picture, most of us do believe that we’re having a positive impact on the world. And if it’s not, we’re willing to change it, regardless of the company’s profitability.<p>TL;DR: Obviously I’m biased, I like that FB isn’t afraid to make mistakes and own then, genuinely think FB is doing good in the world and believe that it’s moving in the right direction.