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Winding down my Debian involvement

469 pointsby secureabout 6 years ago

36 comments

jcofflandabout 6 years ago
I&#x27;ve been using Debian for over 10 years and I still love it as a user. But as a developer, I find it extremely frustrating. I&#x27;ve several times attempted to figure out how to package my open-source projects [1] [2] for Debian but the process is a nightmare. As I understand it, I first have to find someone with appropriate privileges to mentor me. I should be able to just submit a potential package for review.<p>Then there is a ton of documentation on creating packages but which 300 page guide is the right one to use is unclear. And which set of packaging tools should I use? In the end, the time investment required to get started has kept me from contributing.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;camotics.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;camotics.org&#x2F;</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;foldingathome.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;foldingathome.org&#x2F;</a>
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nh2about 6 years ago
In my experience, better tooling always wins in the long run.<p>I&#x27;ve built Debian packages in the past, and after packaging the same software with Nix, it&#x27;s very hard to not feel that Debian tooling and packaging is time consuming for no good reason. The nixpkgs model, where all you need to build everything is one `git clone`, all you need to make a change is a pull request and wait for a range of automated tests to tell you it&#x27;s good (for both build and the _uses_ of a package!), and all you need to land a contributed change is click one button, seems strictly better.<p>Over the years I&#x27;ve heard many people say &quot;but shell scripts, FTP servers and arcane helper tools is the way we&#x27;ve done it for decades and that will never change&quot; in many projects, but eventually, these projects shrink and those with a good developer experience and clean tooling overtake them.<p>Similarly, after experiencing automatic, safe refactoring across billion-line typed-checked code bases, you can&#x27;t help but wonder why people put up with spending their time going through heoric community efforts distributing work across people that a machine could easily do if you used good tooling.<p>In my opinion, the real strength and legacy of Debian is successfully running a large, diverse, distributed project over decades with (reasonable) cohesion, democracy, and (reasonably) good organisation and project management.<p>But even some non-technical problems go away with good tooling, and more time gets freed up to solve those hard tasks.<p>Concrete example: In nixpkgs it is very easy to build overlays for the whole of NixOS that allow you to switch from dynamic to static linking or add hardening flags across all packages, avoiding big debates over which is the &quot;one true way&quot; because providing both is so easy, and both can be merged upstream.<p>I think any big and successful project should continuously invest into better tooling, and simplify and automate things. That keeps contributors motivated and on board.<p>(14-years happy Ubuntu [and thus Debian] user, and 10-years i3 user, so thanks for your efforts, Michael.)
Boulthabout 6 years ago
&gt; I have more ideas that seem really compelling to me, but, based on how my previous projects have been going, I don’t think I can make any of these ideas happen within the Debian project.<p>Interesting article. I had a chance of asking two distributions about some particular feature (making it easier to get GPG keys of developers).<p>The first one I contacted was Gentoo: they quickly CCed my email to relevant people, discussed the matter between themselves and deployed the change in a week.<p>Then I contacted Debian about the same thing. The email was basically identical. But the reply was largely negative, complaining about details and openly avoiding work. The entire interaction reminded me of large corporations where any change is met with resistance for resistance sake.<p>(I use Arch btw.)
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justinsaccountabout 6 years ago
I used debian for over 10 years and never managed to contribute anything.<p>10 Minutes after using homebrew for the first time I sent in a PR to update a package to the latest version and update the built dependencies.
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robocatabout 6 years ago
I noticed a mistake in a comment in a default file in the &#x2F;etc&#x2F; directory - pretty certain the file is part of Debian (although this was on Ubuntu).<p>I thought I would try to fix it.<p>Two hours googling later and I couldn&#x27;t even work out who the maintainer was. I don&#x27;t like eating other people&#x27;s time, but I even tried using IRC.
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chubotabout 6 years ago
<i>Instead, currently, all packages become lint-unclean, all maintainers need to read up on what the new thing is, how it might break, whether&#x2F;how it affects them, manually run some tests, and finally decide to opt in. This causes a lot of overhead and manually executed mechanical changes across packages.</i><p>I always wondered if Debian&#x2F;Ubuntu could benefit from a &quot;monorepo&quot;. It seems to work for other distributions, e.g. Alpine Linux and Homebrew.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;alpinelinux&#x2F;aports&#x2F;tree&#x2F;master&#x2F;main" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;alpinelinux&#x2F;aports&#x2F;tree&#x2F;master&#x2F;main</a><p>Right now every Debian package lives in a separate repo, or it doesn&#x27;t even have to live in a repo at all AFAIK.<p>I think Debian has the most packages because their process is very loose and decoupled (as well as it being one of the oldest distros). But having tighter integration does help move things forward faster.
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glennprattabout 6 years ago
The sidebar makes this barely readable on Pixel 2. The markdown is easy to read:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;stapelberg&#x2F;hugo&#x2F;blob&#x2F;master&#x2F;content&#x2F;posts&#x2F;2019-03-10-debian-winding-down.markdown" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;stapelberg&#x2F;hugo&#x2F;blob&#x2F;master&#x2F;content&#x2F;posts...</a>
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chungyabout 6 years ago
The Arch User Repository (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;aur.archlinux.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;aur.archlinux.org&#x2F;</a>) seems to solve a lot of the collaboration issues. It is pretty painless to create PKGBUILD files to make a package and to upload a new one to the AUR. Most maintainers read the comments and accept patches on a timely manner, and there&#x27;s even a way to forcibly relinquish a package if a maintainer is AWOL for significant time.<p>On the other side of the spectrum, I&#x27;ve found that the official binary repositories for Arch Linux suffer many of the same issues described in the article for Debian. Patches being ignored and collaboration or involvement being near impossible. Even worse, the few people in charge of the official repositories are allowed to basically remove packages from the AUR with no interaction with the AUR maintainer, for the purpose of &quot;promoting&quot; them to the official repositories. This has happened to me twice, and it resulted in what I think is a worse package in one of those cases.
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liuwabout 6 years ago
I love Debian as a user. I considered becoming a DM then DD -- I read all the relevant documents and tested water with maintaining a package I used -- but ultimately gave up due to the bureaucracy and politics involved.<p>The last straw was this: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lwn.net&#x2F;Articles&#x2F;704608&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lwn.net&#x2F;Articles&#x2F;704608&#x2F;</a>
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lifeisstillgoodabout 6 years ago
For me this is the telling part::<p>&quot;&quot;&quot;When I joined Debian, I was still studying, i.e. I had luxurious amounts of spare time.&quot;&quot;&quot;<p>OSS has stopped (if it ever truly was) being a part time endeavour. I know from bitter personal experience one cannout up with a lot of bureaucracy and process of it is your day job - you have time to get through the rubbish in order to find the diamonds.<p>How we (as a society now utterly dependent on OSS) manage this problem is on a par with how we manage journalism - they are bigger questions than I have easy answers to
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ktjfiabout 6 years ago
You&#x27;re the guy behind i3? Thank you very much. I love it.
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devnonymousabout 6 years ago
While this is sad and painful to read, I can&#x27;t say I&#x27;m surprised.<p>The problems listed are precisely the kind of problems that Redhat strategically supports fedora with, in terms of investment of resources. For all the hate Redhat receives it has consistently been a good community member by being willing to help fedora in areas that it knows are hard and yet not &#x27;cool&#x27; enough to attract volunteer contributions.<p>What has Ubuntu done for the debian community along the same lines?
ansibleabout 6 years ago
I&#x27;ve been using Debian &#x2F; Ubuntu for many years, as much due to inertia and familiarity as anything else. And I have a lot of respect for the project.<p>If I wanted to start being a contributor to a distribution, which one would be the best to dive in to?
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wgjordanabout 6 years ago
The post shares several pain points with Debian&#x27;s slow, aging change-process and integration-infrastructure.<p>Open question: If Debian contributors feel the need to drop out and move on due to these pain points, are there less-painful Linux-distribution projects out there that are getting more of these pain points right they can flock to? Is this a sign that Debian needs to reform, or that other, newer distributions are outpacing it?
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jdubabout 6 years ago
Improving the distribution developer experience was one of the early objectives of Ubuntu, and where it had the least amount of success. It&#x27;s a pity, because perhaps the only useful thing you could get out of essentially forking Debian (in itself not a great idea, but say you wanted to...) is independence from its technical and social processes. Ubuntu&#x27;s processes are different, but not wildly improved... primarily because Launchpad was designed from a database schema, not for users.<p>Ubuntu exploited a clear gaping hole in the distro market in 2004. There&#x27;s still a gap in 2019, but it&#x27;s a weirder market now than it was back then.
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rixedabout 6 years ago
Been using Debian more or less exclusively since Potato. And I&#x27;m a bit surprised by the tone of these comments and even more by the content of the blog post. To me, Debian had become an irrelevant fossil not because of any technical factor such as those listed here or there (lack of powerful tools to go over packages silos, bug reporting tools, communication tools, packaging tools...) Indeed I tend to believe not following the industry &#x2F;best&#x2F; practices is actually an asset in many cases, sometime even a Debian landmark that served them and their users well (for instance, refusing to stick to release dates and favouring rock-solid new releases instead); Indeed, &quot;they still use X why everybody else is using Y by now&quot; should sounds very suspicious to many ears.<p>To me as an outsider the obvious cause for Debian obsolescence is, and has been for more than a decade, the growing bureaucracy and consequently the lack of new blood and innovation. This opinion anchored the day when, participating to a Debian bug squashing party surrounded by similarly minded hackers, we were approached by a DD asking if he could check our identity papers in order to &quot;simplify the process&quot; of accepting our fixes.<p>Organisations, and companies too to some degree, can sometime be best described by what they stand against. Since the beginning Debian has been standing against a hostile environment: I mentioned already the industry bad practices, but also part of this hostile outer world were the negligent upstreams, the unaware users, the cheating corporations and the misguided FOSS enthusiasts. Some bureaucracy was certainly in order to protect against them all. But I&#x27;m afraid one of Debian legacy will be that the DD will personify the FOSS bureaucrat, with its 300 pages long packaging manual and 30 steps long contributor approval processes, in the cultural pantheon of the distributions of the future.
shmerlabout 6 years ago
Personally, I&#x27;m annoyed at Debian still not having a Web frontend for bug filing. Practically all other distros have some kind of issue tracker site that allows filing bugs through it.<p>Using reportbug or e-mail feels way less comfortable in comparison.
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apple4everabout 6 years ago
Sad to see it takes this to raise such issues.<p>It’s hard to make a change on the inside when so many people’s lives depend on not making that change.<p>Maybe Debian needs to go through a OpenWRT&#x2F;LEDE split. That was over a lot of resistence to change and general bureaucracy. In the end, they merged back after fixing the biggest problems.
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xtatabout 6 years ago
10+ year emeritus DD here -- Honestly I think &quot;modern&quot; dev culture is quite different from the core of he Debian community and this is both a strength and weakness. I can&#x27;t say that I want Debian to look anything like the node ecosystem.
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alexandernstabout 6 years ago
Another issue, IMHO, is the fact that every time somebody proposes some change, for example Gitlab + Gitflow instead of sending patches in some awkward format, via mail, there are a few people that already have their own workflow based on (probably) mutt combined with 10s of scripts, and they don&#x27;t really want to change their workflow for the greater good; instead, they&#x27;d just find reasons why the new proposal sucks and keep using what they already have.
infinity0about 6 years ago
This developer is largely responsible for the Go ecosystem in Debian where they develop against HEAD. That&#x27;s pretty hard and results in a lot of breakages. Go developers don&#x27;t give a shit and push a lot of the externalities onto distro packages like Debian packagers (volunteers) or else Google developers (who get paid a huge amount to do bullshit engineering that nobody else cares about).<p>We&#x27;re making a lot of progress with Debian Rust packages and have automated away 90% of the ordinary Debian crap - which is needed in the general case but not for Rust where the constraints are very well-defined by Cargo - you only have to maintain two files (d&#x2F;changelog and d&#x2F;copyright) for the vast majority of Debian Rust crates.
WhatIsDukkhaabout 6 years ago
I wonder how well <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;salsa.debian.org&#x2F;public" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;salsa.debian.org&#x2F;public</a> adoption is going?<p>It seems designed to address a lot of these issues?
z3t4about 6 years ago
I haven&#x27;t made any debian packages, I heard it&#x27;s a lot of work, but these looks good, not bad:<p>* Granting personal freedom to individual maintainers<p>* All maintainers need to read up on what the new thing is, how it might break, whether&#x2F;how it affects them, manually run some tests, and finally decide to opt in.
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Conan_Kudoabout 6 years ago
So I&#x27;ve been involved in Fedora for as long as Michael has been involved in Debian, and I have attempted branching out into other distribution communities over the years.<p>To this day, the Debian community is the only community where I have not been able to get past the initial stages to get involved. And you don&#x27;t have to look too hard to see that I&#x27;m in quite a few communities...<p>There&#x27;s a lot of parallels to Debian and Fedora when I started in the project over a decade ago.<p>The clear divider in how the two projects evolved was that Fedora elected to implement a lazy consensus model for decision-making, and developed a culture with a bias for action and improvement. Debian requires full consensus (generally) and has a culture that favors inaction. This difference is what has kept me in the Fedora Project for over a decade, and I still enjoy working in that community and doing my part to improve the greater Linux community and ecosystem.<p>Over the years, Fedora shed a lot of its more complex processes and developed simpler tools and supporting infrastructure to make it easier to use and contribute to the development of the distribution and outlying projects. Over the years, I&#x27;ve seen us replace our buildsystem infrastructure[1][2][3], develop APIs and protocols for weaving tools together[4], migrate SCMs and create the first ever binary store system for Git[5][6][7], develop tools to simplify complex tasks[8][9][10], and build replacements to proprietary or overly-complex systems and support open standards and interoperable systems[11][12], all to benefit our users, our contributors, and our ecosystem. We&#x27;ve taken a similar hammer to our processes and structures so that we enable a wider range of people to be involved, representing their concerns and making our community healthier than before.<p>We&#x27;re still continuing down this path of making it easier for people to leverage the Fedora Project resources for the benefit of the community with things like COPR[13], CI on packages with Koschei[14] and CentOS CI integration for projects and packages[15], etc.<p>That&#x27;s not to say Fedora is perfect, mind you. It still has some technical and process warts. But I&#x27;m proud of the fact that our community is still actively trying to improve our processes, our tools, and our distribution. We&#x27;re not afraid to make things better, and our community generally wants to make the Linux world a better place.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedoraproject.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;FedoraSummit&#x2F;NewBuildSystem" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedoraproject.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;FedoraSummit&#x2F;NewBuildSystem</a><p>[2]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedoraproject.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Infrastructure&#x2F;CoreExtrasMerge" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedoraproject.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Infrastructure&#x2F;CoreExtrasMerg...</a><p>[3]: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;koji.build&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;koji.build&#x2F;</a><p>[4]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedmsg.readthedocs.io&#x2F;en&#x2F;stable&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedmsg.readthedocs.io&#x2F;en&#x2F;stable&#x2F;</a><p>[5]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedoraproject.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Dist_Git_Proposal" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedoraproject.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Dist_Git_Proposal</a><p>[6]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedoraproject.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Dist_Git_Project" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedoraproject.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Dist_Git_Project</a><p>[7]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;release-engineering&#x2F;dist-git" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;release-engineering&#x2F;dist-git</a><p>[8]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.mankier.com&#x2F;1&#x2F;fedpkg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.mankier.com&#x2F;1&#x2F;fedpkg</a><p>[9]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bodhi.fedoraproject.org&#x2F;docs&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bodhi.fedoraproject.org&#x2F;docs&#x2F;</a><p>[10]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mirrormanager.readthedocs.io&#x2F;en&#x2F;latest&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mirrormanager.readthedocs.io&#x2F;en&#x2F;latest&#x2F;</a><p>[11]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pagure.io&#x2F;pagure" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pagure.io&#x2F;pagure</a><p>[12]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ipsilon-project.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ipsilon-project.org&#x2F;</a><p>[13]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;copr.fedorainfracloud.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;copr.fedorainfracloud.org&#x2F;</a><p>[14]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedoraproject.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Koschei" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedoraproject.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Koschei</a><p>[15]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedoraproject.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;CI&#x2F;Pipeline" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fedoraproject.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;CI&#x2F;Pipeline</a>
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bhaakabout 6 years ago
&gt; Gmane used to paper over this issue, but Gmane’s availability over the last few years has been spotty, to say the least (it is down as I write this).<p>The Gmane web interface is not just down but shut down for good: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lars.ingebrigtsen.no&#x2F;2016&#x2F;07&#x2F;28&#x2F;the-end-of-gmane&#x2F;comment-page-1&#x2F;#comment-13502" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lars.ingebrigtsen.no&#x2F;2016&#x2F;07&#x2F;28&#x2F;the-end-of-gmane&#x2F;com...</a><p>So this issue won&#x27;t get better without Debian doing something themselves.
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ausjkeabout 6 years ago
debian user for 20 years here, love it.<p>debain is the base for so many other projects, it needs to keep going strong.<p>in the meantime debian in many aspects is a bit &quot;old&quot; now, its infrastructure and the way to do things need evolve. I&#x27;m not a developer per se, it is not easy to become one either.<p>There are so many ways to make packages and it&#x27;s hard to pick the &quot;best&quot; one for example.<p>I hope Debian can reform its model to make it even better, there are just so many archaic baggage from the past for new comers.
jgoerzenabout 6 years ago
Hi Michael,<p>Thanks for writing this. I wrote a response here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;changelog.complete.org&#x2F;archives&#x2F;9971-a-partial-defense-of-debian" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;changelog.complete.org&#x2F;archives&#x2F;9971-a-partial-defen...</a><p>The tl;dr version is I agree with you about some of the things you mention, but also feel like there&#x27;s an element of personal preference for web-based tools showing through.
fortyabout 6 years ago
I have a naive question (I&#x27;m a long time Debian user, but never really tried to contribute): why isn&#x27;t all the Debian in a single git repository? I&#x27;m not suggesting to vendor all the third party code but only all the packaging information, like, say, libreelec does (and I assume many others)
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stretchwithmeabout 6 years ago
Thank you for all of your hard work.
bfrogabout 6 years ago
Compared to nixos everything else seems arcane, and compared to arch&#x27;s pacman&#x2F;makepkg combo everything else seems overly complicated.
Annatarabout 6 years ago
I&#x27;m curious as to what the author would think of this in contrast to Debian:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;illumos.org&#x2F;books&#x2F;dev&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;illumos.org&#x2F;books&#x2F;dev&#x2F;</a>
fxfanabout 6 years ago
Thank you, Mr Stapelberg. Some people in the OSS community can be overbearing and dealing with them on not one but two popular projects is something I, as a user (of both), want to thank you for.
coleiferabout 6 years ago
So some guy realizes that the vast resources and top-down direction available at large corporations don&#x27;t translate to a huge open-source project (which itself is compromised of tons of open-source projects)? And it took him 10 years to realize this?<p>Seriously though, I&#x27;m amazed at how well Debian just works. And I know it&#x27;s because enough people are willing to put up with these types of frustrations. Thanks for the hard work.
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paulcarrotyabout 6 years ago
According to my 10 years of Linux experience I can say: community Linux distributions sucks. &#x27;Cause it&#x27;s funny when you can upload a couple of packages and <i>not funny</i> when you need to debug installer or understand why it doesn&#x27;t work under upgrade. When you do this professionally, your salary is the great motivator.
kanoxabout 6 years ago
Not really a fan of &quot;I&#x27;m leaving X because of free time and also this 20-point list of why you suck.&quot;
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ams6110about 6 years ago
Comes off to me as a guy who&#x27;s just tired of the project after 10 years. Understandable that he finds annoyance and frustration in so many things. It&#x27;s like a marriage that has reached the point where one or both partners have decided they don&#x27;t want to be together anymore.<p>As an outsider, to me the list of complaints sounds kind of petty and whining. Better to just say &quot;I&#x27;m moving on, I wish everyone the best&quot; and be done with it.
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