Ask HN: How many hours/week are you expected to work in SV/NY/other tech hubs?

35 pointsby andy_adamsabout 6 years ago

For someone outside Silicon Valley, the salaries being paid to rank-and-file software engineers seem very high - which is great!However, on many job postings you'll see words like "grit" or "passion" listed as requirements. These are codewords for "we'll work you hard" and "overtime expected", as far as I can tell.Software Engineers in Silicon Valley or comparable large tech hubs:* How many hours do you work per week?* Do higher-salaried jobs require more hours?Both individual examples and higher-level overviews of the market are appreciated.Context:I'm a software consultant working with software companies in tech hubs - but I work remotely. I occasionally check their job postings and am $urprised at the pay rates and wonder if I'm underpaid. But then I think: Are there long hours involved? Is 50+ hours/week the minimum?

19 comments

jbussabout 6 years ago

I work remotely for a company in Silicon Valley. I worked on site for 2+ years before that.I work 40 hours a week, no more, no less and I have good performance reviews. I think the trend for programmers is to work 40 hours a week and have a balanced life. There is tremendous pushback against working 50 or 50 hours a week lately, and I'm thankful for that.

zxcvbn4038about 6 years ago

In NYC, in financial services anyway, you are expected to work around 60 hours per week plus whatever more is needed. You are expected to house your wife in Connecticut and have your parents live with you to help your wife care for any children. The big draw for that is you can typically expect high end salary and bonus around 50% of salary or more - however only if you are present on the date distributed. It’s a very common practice to lay off in November or December, so employers can get the most work out of you without paying bonus or letting you cost through the holidays when things are slow and IT departments are in change freeze.Since leaving financial services I’ve worked in social media where things are much more family friendly, hours are closer to 40, but salary is about a third less and bonus is closer to 25%.

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yodsanklaiabout 6 years ago

What does it mean when people say they work 40 hours a week? does it mean they are focused for 40 hours, or that they spend 40 hours at their workplace (including chatting with colleagues, eating, browsing the web or moving across the building...).

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slezakattackabout 6 years ago

I work for a mobile gaming company in SV (500+ employees) where the office hours are 10 - 7. I come in just before 9 and I leave at 5. Nobody seems to care and people respect my hours. I receive good performance reviews and I'd like to think I'm seen as a "go-to" person in the company. Sometimes there's a light crunch where I'll pull 50 hours and/or take my work home with me but it's pretty rare. The problem is that it can be so hit-and-miss with these companies. I've watched teams from my last company push 120 hour weeks to get a product done while I still worked 40-45 hours (I wasn't involved with the project thank god).You could literally work for a company (big or small) where teams or individuals work long hours. I personally don't think working longer hours should be awarded (unless the company is pushing for something) as it makes other people feel they need to work longer. I always felt it makes more sense to work smarter than longer.

WaxProlixabout 6 years ago

I'm in Seattle and the answer is 'It varies'. We have oncalls which can feel like working ~70 hrs/wk, and slower weeks where I'm only really in the office for 30 or so hours.Usually I'm in office or checking in on stuff from home for about 45hrs/wk. A lot of my office time is spent in conversation or explaining things to juniors, getting coffee, dealing with inter-team communication issues, that sort of thing. Some (like now) is spent browsing the web, which I think of as keeping up with industry trends:)If I wanted to 'take the next step' in my career, I'd likely have to lose some of my flexibility and have a more butt-in-seat approach. I think most of the management and principal engineers here at AWS are in the 50+ hour club.

voidhorseabout 6 years ago

I work at a large company in NYC. Based wholly on personal observation, long hours are not uncommon. I often see folks eating dinner at the office. I suspect most people put in ~50 hours a week if not a little more than that.The number tends to increase with the extent of one’s responsibilities (n.b. extent, not gravity).As far as expectations go, I don’t think these are normally elaborated in terms of hours for salaried employees. You’re just expected to get your work done, regardless of whether or not it takes you more than 40. The expectation is probably that you put in ~40-50? This is purely speculation on my part, mind you.

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stackdestroyerabout 6 years ago

The expectations vary mostly depending on a few things, IMO:1. Life stage of the company (startup vs. mature) 2. Role (rank-and-file engineer vs. leadership) 3. Your managementLocation has had less to do with the number of hours worked than the items above.Startups tend to demand more of their staff because it's an existential problem they're trying to solve - become profitable/acquired/public before you run out of money or someone squashes you. Expectations there will be >40 hours pretty much across the board, and will favor single, probably white men.Mature companies can also demand more of your time, but typically they are easier places to find roles that will not demand much more than 40 hours a week.With those things said, you could be working for a SOB that simply demands your presence to prove you're doing the most work possible, and in those cases you should decide whether you value your paycheck or your health/sanity. I've been there and choose health/sanity 100% of the time. Burn out just once and you'll know what I'm talking about.

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rm999about 6 years ago

I moved to NYC from a tier 2 city and found the expectations tend to be about the same (~40 hours). That said, a city like NYC can attract and retain type-A people who work long hours, so I think on average NYCers work longer hours than my previous city.> Do higher-salaried jobs require more hoursNo, but moving up the management ladder can require more responsibility and hours.

Mandatumabout 6 years ago

New Zealand and Melbourne, Australia: Only time I've regularly worked more than 40 hours was when I didn't know any better for a large consultancy. Since minor burn-out I've always maxed my hours to 40 per week unless I'm really enjoying the work (ie I'd rather work than do personal things). This can be dangerous if left unchecked, however I've got a pretty healthy relationship with work.The only people who seem to work much longer hours are my American counterparts and the occasional person who I believe to have poor work-life balance. None of these people seem to be anywhere ahead or achieve anything more than their colleagues. They often hold the "first in, last out" of the office trope, and shame others for working regular hours as lazy.I've got enough grey hairs as it is, thanks.

sorryforthethroabout 6 years ago

Ah, it's not so precise, especially at a startup. A lot of bias and favoritism, and employee hired after you might curry favor with the CTO and show up 4 hours a week and never get fired, while you get hounded for more (no extra pay) overtime. Such is Silicon Valley.

p45pleaseabout 6 years ago

London: 40hr/week up to 70hr/week, rough contracts and tight deadlines.Moved to LA 3 years ago, work 40hr/week even though on 5x salary compared to UK. Never felt pressure to work more, but would when required (launches).

tdeckabout 6 years ago

I work in SF. It really depends on the company and team, rather than the region. Lately I have been working 35-40 hours per week at Google, but there are times when I've worked more like 50 hours.

apolymathabout 6 years ago

I work full-time with salary at an insurance company here in Las Vegas, NV, 9 am to 4 pm with 1 hour lunch. As a .NET software engineer, I lucked out :)

CorvusCryptoabout 6 years ago

I would say Stockholm is a tech hub in Scandinavia. There I worked 45-50 hours per week.In comparison to LA where I recently moved back: I work 40 hours a week, barring any emergency that may come up. Though LA isn't really a tech hub so maybe it's not a fair comparison.In both places expectations are unwritten, so to speak, as laws prevent abuse of labor. However in either case you are pretty well compensated for overtime.

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vr46about 6 years ago

London: 37.5-40 hours a week.

dajohnson89about 6 years ago

There's no hard and fast rule. Working for banks in NYC, 50+ is very common. Same for many startups who are in "growth mode". Wherever you go, hopefully you're judged by your output, not how long you're seated in a chair.

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justforfunhereabout 6 years ago

Gurgaon, India. Working in a startup. We have to consistently push up to 80-100 hrs per week. Sorry state of affairs I can say.

abgfmabout 6 years ago

RO, start-up-mode: 50-60 hrs; corporate (telco, fmcg, financial services): the usual 40 hrs/week.

ergothusabout 6 years ago

> However, on many job postings you'll see words like "grit" or "passion" listed as requirements. These are codewords for "we'll work you hard" and "overtime expected", as far as I can tell.I was talking with some younger friends here in Seattle, and they expressed similar concerns. This was a total shock to me, because I've been involved in hiring at multiple firms and we use those terms not just in our postings but in our internal discussions for evaluation, etc, and we DON'T mean what the fears are.In my experience, talking about "passion" is basically shorthand for "we won't have to train you and we'll have minimal mentorship - you'll learn and improve on your own". So..not really a _positive_ meaning, but a very different one from the fear. We don't expect people to put in long hours - the normal 40ish work-week, maybe with a crunch day or two each quarter, roughly speaking. But we do expect/want that people are coming in with the interests to improve and the existing skill to do so. Most places are severely shy of "senior" people (In part, IMNSHO, because they keep trying to hire "senior" people rather than committing to getting more "junior" devs) and as a result they don't have people with the time to spare for proper mentorship.While this expectation has been consistent across the places I've worked, that doesn't mean it's a universal truth...but I've not seen anything that suggests "passion" and "grit" mean "will work stupid long/hard" outside of the game industry and startups. (Notably, most places rush to get to the point when they can recruit as "post-startup", meaning they no longer ask for those kinds of hours).I'm in Seattle, and to address your questions:* Roughly 40 hours/week, normally a bit less (8-4, with a work-provided lunch so I end up not working for only a short time). In the course of a year I expect to have maybe 5 days that I do crazy hours (12-15+ hours/day) and maybe 10 days that I do long (10ish hours). Probably work about 2 weekend days/year on average (excluding answering a text/message, or doing a small code review - anywhere from 5-15 of those on weekends/year, each measured in minutes, not hours)* Higher paying jobs (I've done 90k - 180+k in Seattle) haven't required more hours, though being willing to put in hours when something real comes up is always taken as helpful and does a lot to help with promotions and bonuses. The trick has been finding places that defines something "real" in terms you agree with. Prod issues that really impacts a customer and comes up 1-2 times/year? Cool. Being "on-call" each month means you WILL get a call? Not cool.* Certain positions DO expect more hours, particularly when a problem arises. Generally Ops people and those that have to resolve production-critical bugs. This should all be openly available info before and during interviews, though you may have to ask.That said, I've also noticed a name cachet - My Amazonian friends, depending on their teams, have put in some hours I would consider stupid. They do this WITHOUT a pay bump relative to others in the area/field - getting the name on your resume is considered worth the extra effort. Then again those on other teams have done nothing outside of my norm.To put this all in context - I moved here ~7 years ago, and have worked for 3 companies out here. I've more than doubled my salary in that time, but my workload hasn't changed too much. One place shifted from a good work/life balance to having "crunch-time" start to extend to being very frequent - I left, and so did most everyone else. One of the big benefits of a high-demand area is that you can be assured of being able to safely leave a company, so work-you-crazy certainly happens and in places, but cannot be the norm.

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