TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Comcast demands Level 3 pay fee to deliver online movies to their subscribers

269 pointsby jsm386over 14 years ago

23 comments

tcover 14 years ago
<i>"On November 22, after being informed by Comcast that its demand for payment was 'take it or leave it,' Level 3 agreed to the terms, under protest, in order to ensure customers did not experience any disruptions."</i><p>Leave it. Level3 set a terrible precedent here by paying the shakedown money. Even with their subsequent complaints, they've now put Comcast in a much better position by implicitly acknowledging (whether true or not) that Comcast brings more value to the table by providing access to its subscriber base than content-providers bring to the table by supplying content to subscribers.<p>Like the old Churchill story goes, "now we're just negotiating the price."<p>(See PS #4 below for a more benign interpretation.)<p>--<p>PS #1: Yes, of course it might have been expensive for them to play hardball here, with respect to the short-term harm it might cause their customers. That's exactly the point. By acknowledging that the harm to Comcast would be lower (which I actually doubt), they've significantly strengthened Comcast's position against other carriers and perhaps even with regulators.<p>PS #2: Game theory would suggest that it's critical for Netflix to repel this assault now, even at the cost of short term pain. Once this precedence is established, Comcast will be able to extract nearly all of the profit from Netflix sales to Comcast customers. Each time Comcast raises the toll, it would be in Netflix's rational self interest to go along so long as they are still making some net profit on the channel (modulo opportunity costs and whatnot).<p>PS #3: It's not uncommon for carriers to play hardball. The big Tier 1's have been trying to prevent the ascension of Cogent into their club for years, which (along with Cogent's aggressiveness) resulted in some nasty peering dispute stalemates in 2005 (with Level3) and 2008 (with Sprint), each time "breaking the internet."<p>PS #4: It's also possible that Level3 is representing this as a net neutrality issue when in reality it's just a peering dispute. Traditionally local ISPs have had to pay for transit across the networks of the big carriers. When a local ISP becomes a large regional or national one (Comcast), they have enough leverage to extract no-charge ("settlement-free") peering agreements with most of the major carriers. This is probably the first case, though, of a cable-company ISP becoming large enough to extract transit fees from a big international carrier. That's noteworthy, but if it is content-neutral, it's still the way the internet has always worked.
评论 #1952753 未加载
评论 #1952118 未加载
评论 #1952565 未加载
ghshephardover 14 years ago
Read the press release carefully:<p>"“On November 19, 2010, Comcast informed Level 3 that, for the first time, it will demand a recurring fee from Level 3 to transmit Internet online movies and other content to Comcast’s customers who request such content."<p>...and other content.<p>I'd like to know the entire story here. Is Comcast demanding that Level3 Pay a fee to deliver online movies, or is Comcast demanding peering fees. One of those is content neutral, the other is not.<p>Note - as I read it, Comcast is demanding peering fees from Level 3. Big Whoop.<p>I'm fine with Comcast demanding money from inbound-feeds to transit their network, and shutting them off if they don't pay it. That's why any sane content provider multi-homes . Think about the position Netflix put L3 in by announcing an "exclusive" CDN deal with L3. Comcasts negotiating position with L3 got a whole lot better.<p>This is not unusual on the internet - think about how often cogent gets de-peered because it's unwilling to pay peering fees. I've had a ton of colleagues get blackholed because they made the mistake of single-homing through cogent. Ironically, L3 depeered from Cogent a few years ago... So, what's good for the goose...<p>For a taste of how this type of negotiating constantly is going on in the background, see: <a href="http://www.renesys.com/tech/presentations/pdf/nanog43-peeringwars.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.renesys.com/tech/presentations/pdf/nanog43-peerin...</a><p>Net-Net: Always Multi-home through at least a couple Tier 1 providers, so when one of them gets depeered, your customers can still communicate with you. Be wary of exclusive transit deals.<p>Anybody with some actual insight care to comment on what's really going on here?
评论 #1952236 未加载
评论 #1952662 未加载
woodrowover 14 years ago
If we can set aside the "Comcast is inherently evil" mindset for a moment, this to me reads simply that Comcast notified Level 3 that they were terminating a previously agreed upon settlement-free peering [1] agreement where Comcast and L3 find exchanging traffic without charging each other mutually beneficial.<p>This kind of thing is not an unusual event in the history of the Internet and can happen for any number of reasons -- including arguably justified criteria such as unbalanced traffic ratios, as well as business strategy (or greed, depending on which side you are on).<p>Level 3 has elected to frame this as a net neutrality issue and take the dispute to the press and the court of public opinion, but it's probably about a different question: who will pay, and how much will each party pay, for the infrastructure required to deliver content from L3's customers to Comcast's customers?<p>If viewed in this light, this peering agreement renegotiation is Comcast pushing back some of the costs on L3 and/or it's customers (i.e. streaming video providers). The other alternative would be to raise it's own customer rates.<p>It's possible that Comcast is being greedy and leveraging their position to rent-seek, but it's also possible that the traffic mix that resulted in the previous peering agreement is now significantly out of whack, justifying this renegotiation. It's definitely not black and white, and this is only one side of the story.<p>[1] <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peering" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peering</a>
评论 #1952463 未加载
joezydecoover 14 years ago
I'm sure it had nothing to do with this announcement from two weeks ago:<p><i>"Netflix (NASDAQ:NFLX) announced Thursday (Nov 11th) that it has signed a multi-year deal with Level 3 (NASDAQ: LVLT) for Level 3 to become a primary content delivery network (CDN) provider for the online movie rental company."</i>
jrockwayover 14 years ago
This is why we need to use encryption for <i>everything</i>, not just shopping, SSH, and banking. The less distinguishable packets are from noise, the more open the Internet can be.<p>Sadly, I'm beginning to envision the future of the Internet as a bunch of point-to-point VPN connections to trusted sites, almost exactly like UUCP or the BBSes of days past. VPNs are already essential if you live in certain countries (China, the US if COICA had passed, etc.) or want to BitTorrent your TV shows without getting sued for 30 million dollars. Someday, it might be required just to watch Netflix or search with Google. Sad.<p>In what world do 65536 octets representing a video cost more to deliver than 65536 representing an email? A world where greedy ISPs can tell the difference.
评论 #1952247 未加载
评论 #1952227 未加载
评论 #1952195 未加载
absconditusover 14 years ago
"On November 22, after being informed by Comcast that its demand for payment was ‘take it or leave it,’ Level 3 agreed to the terms, under protest, in order to ensure customers did not experience any disruptions"<p>I do not understand how Comcast had leverage in that situation. Had Level 3 told them no then Comcast customers would have been affected. Why is Comcast even negotiating with Level 3 and not the content providers?
评论 #1952113 未加载
评论 #1952096 未加载
ghshephardover 14 years ago
Update on this from: <a href="http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/netflix-partner-says-comcast-toll-threatens-online-video-delivery/?hpw" rel="nofollow">http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/netflix-par...</a><p>Peering Dispute.<p>"Comcast on Monday rebuffed the notion that the new fees were related to Netflix by saying that the type of traffic distributed by Level 3 was irrelevant. Joe Waz, a senior vice president at Comcast, says it has had a peering agreement with Level 3 to swap traffic fairly evenly. Now Level 3 is sharply increasing its traffic, he said, while resisting a commercial agreement to pay for that.<p>Comcast is “already carrying huge amounts of video to our high-speed Internet customers every day through commercial arrangements, and it seems to be working for everybody else,” Mr. Waz said. “Level 3 is trying to change the rules of the game.”"
woodrowover 14 years ago
Comcast responds, seeming to claim that Level 3 wants CDN peering with a tier-1 peering agreement:<p><a href="http://blog.comcast.com/2010/11/comcast-comments-on-level-3.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.comcast.com/2010/11/comcast-comments-on-level-3....</a>
评论 #1952818 未加载
jaysonelliotover 14 years ago
I'm glad this is happening now. The concept of Net Neutrality has been too abstract for most consumers and legislators thus far, so it's been easy for telcom lobbyists to manipulate the narrative.<p>Something concrete and egregious needed to happen before the average consumer would understand what it really means to allow companies to filter the type of traffic that people are allowed to get through their pipes.
评论 #1952122 未加载
smutticusover 14 years ago
If we had proper amounts of competition in ISPs the entire net neutrality problem would simply disappear. It's only because we're forced to negotiate with monopolies that net neutrality is an issue at all.
NathanKPover 14 years ago
If I was Level 3 I would have said "leave it" to Comcast and let Comcast block the service for all their customers. It would have caused a bigger media sensation and outrage by Comcast customers against their ISP. By giving in Level 3 has just encouraged this "tollbooth" attitude that ISPs are developing.
评论 #1952143 未加载
akozakover 14 years ago
Bad news for the Internet, especially considering how central Level 3 is to the current landscape. It was inevitable that they'd shake down the CDNs.
karzeemover 14 years ago
If enough Netflix customers live in Comcast-only areas, Netflix would have had little choice but to lean on Level 3 to capitulate. Even if the customers are willing to switch ISPs just to get Netflix, they wouldn't have had the option. That translates to less money for Netflix, more pissed off customers for Comcast, and a true win for nobody. With Netflix and Level 3 falling on their swords, their customers at least come out ahead in the short term.<p>In the long term, it's obviously disastrous. At some point, companies will have to refuse en masse to pay the protection money. In the areas where it has a monopoly, Comcast could stomach losing Netflix, but not another 10 or 20 big sites on top of it. There are antitrust issues with collective refusal to pay, but there's got to be a way around that.
评论 #1952185 未加载
iopuyover 14 years ago
There is a Comcast employee who occasionally posts on HN, he was active in the OpenDNS thread over the weekend. I would like to get his input on this.
kevinpetover 14 years ago
Ideal solution would be for Netflix to offer a discount to users on ISPs that don't do this. Importantly, send an email with "this is what you would pay on the different ISPs serving your area".
danielnicolletover 14 years ago
How can Comcast argue they incur so much costs? when other providers are able to offer triple-play (isp/cable/phone) offerings for a third of the price or less. Example: in France Proxad (<a href="http://www.free.fr" rel="nofollow">http://www.free.fr</a>) offers 179 cable channels, on demand movies and shows, 18 Mbits DSL, free unlimited VOIP calls to the whole country + 40 foreign countries - all for $40 flat (no catch - I have used them happily for 5 years and I am still a customer in France where I own a home).
评论 #1953575 未加载
tsothaover 14 years ago
This is BS. If Level 3 is paying Comcast why am I paying Comcast?
10smomover 14 years ago
I am so looking forward to the day when the Comcast monopoly is brought to it's knees! Bring it on GOOGLE!
cedsavover 14 years ago
Comcast pulled quite a bluff, but I don't see how they can win in the long term. As a Comcast subscriber, I'd more than happy to switch to a different ISP if Comcast starts to limit access to Netflix or any other content provider.
评论 #1952303 未加载
评论 #1952830 未加载
评论 #1952223 未加载
fennecfoxenover 14 years ago
Yep. This is just your local television monopoly protecting its interests. We all knew it was coming sooner or later.
tdokover 14 years ago
I wonder if this has anything to do with Comcast being down last night.
peapickerover 14 years ago
Absolutely chilling. Glad I abandoned comcast a few years ago.
CountHackulusover 14 years ago
Well, there goes the (net neutral) neighborhood.