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A tale of how Google tried to win against Mozilla

415 pointsby 8x8squaresabout 6 years ago

24 comments

roenxiabout 6 years ago
One of the &#x27;mysteries&#x27; of corporations is that they will either do nothing, or take an action that furthers their corporate interests. People don&#x27;t seem to expect that of companies with a public face and seem surprised when they turn out to be just like any other corporate group.<p>It&#x27;s a coordination thing - coordinating a large group of people is so challenging only simple messages like &#x27;make a profit&#x27; get through on average. Simple things with clear metrics.<p>&#x27;Support the open web&#x27; has no metrics and is realistically not a comprehensive shared vision a company can rally around. The message that a Chrome-first strategy doesn&#x27;t support the open web is (1) contestable (2) requires a lot of assumptions.<p>Anyone who believed or still believes that Google the Corporation is controlled by the engineers employed by Google is in for an eventual rude shock. Anyone who believes a corporation will support the open web for any reason other than it is in their interests to is likewise mistaken.<p>This is why focusing on capability is more important than focusing on intent, despite what human instinct generally suggests (humans overweight intent). Google is a scary company. They have more power over people than most companies, with the exception of the banks - and look at how the banks are regulated!
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nindalfabout 6 years ago
I thought the thread would have more substance to it. His claim is that Google products would have performance bugs or would explicitly block any non-Chrome browser. As a long time Firefox user, I’m with him so far. But he loses me on the next bit where he rules out incompetence and then jumps to org-level malice. I don’t think it’s either. A simpler explanation is that Google simply stopped caring about non-Chrome browsers. People building say, Inbox were told it was acceptable to launch a product that is only accessible to one browser at launch. I hated that decision because it affected me directly but that’s not malice, simply prioritisation.<p>Of course standard disclaimers apply. I don’t work for Google, never held Google stock etc.
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bprasannaabout 6 years ago
I don&#x27;t know whats going wrong with Firefox. Im still an active firefox user. I intentionally avoid Chrome and use it rarely to see if the site which doesn&#x27;t work in Firefox also doesn&#x27;t work in Chrome. IMHO Firefox didn&#x27;t make me feel slow anytime. The whole point of Google Chrome automatically logging-in as Gmail user throughout the browser should have sounded alarm for people who care about privacy. I do agree Google brings latest of web tech to Chrome fast, but that makes other browsers falling behind in terms of features. Catching up wastes lots of time for the other browser makers. IMHO monopoly in browser is not a good idea. We know what a monopolistic attitude brings to plate. Also, when we see new extensions for Chrome with an explicit subject as &quot;extension for Chrome&quot;, for Firefox users it feels like being sidestepped. Then it becomes the onus of the Firefox user to see if he&#x2F;she needs to get in touch the extension developer to see the possibility of portability. A caring developer shouldn&#x27;t sidestep Firefox or even other browsers per se. If every developer becomes selfish about developing tools&#x2F;extensions for their own environment, they are blocking the goodness to others.
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mastrsushiabout 6 years ago
All I got out of that link of tweets was a series of &quot;Look at all the ways big evil Google steered us off the internet&quot;. I&#x27;m not doubting any if those claims are true. At the same time, I don&#x27;t think any of those malicious motives were strong enough.<p>That post came off as more of a whistle blowing speech from an oppressed developer. Nothing written was solid enough to make me think &quot;Ohhh that&#x27;s how Google killed Mozilla&quot;<p>Just as Firefox destroyed IE, Chrome generally outperforms Firefox. If you dont believe me, read any benchmark out there. If you&#x27;re too cynical, run them both yourself.<p>The GUI features Google introduced were very important. Draggable, swappable tabs that can be pulled out into separate windows, address bars with integrated search engines, built in PDF viewers. 10 years later these features sound like ridiculous remarks, but they were prominent selling points for many average users.<p>Not to mention, Google had an ever growing sense of brand identity. Especially during this time range of the YouTube aquisition, and rise of Android OS. Whether it&#x27;s now or a decade ago, what is the first thing that comes to mind when the average user sees the name Mozilla? Does this demographic even know what Mozilla is? I stress average user because to us there is of course JavaScript and Netscapes heritage. Which is unfortunate to see Rome collapse this way, but so did IBM.
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GrayShadeabout 6 years ago
They didn&#x27;t try to, they actually won. Microsoft switching to Blink was had news for Mozilla, and sites that are &quot;optimized for Chrome&quot; started to crop up all over the place.<p>Yes, Firefox is slow on Macs, but you should consider switching to it. We know how it went with IE back then. On Android, the extension support alone makes it so much better than the competition.
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ksecabout 6 years ago
I disagree about Firefox losing users due to Google&#x27;s Opps incident.<p>I forced the use of Firefox over 100s of computer and witness the growth of Chrome all by user installing it themselves. And when I ask them why, trying to talk them out of it, the number one reason was, Chrome was WAY faster than Firefox at the time. From Cold Start, Prefetch, rendering, first time to paint, actual UI etc. Every single god damn thing. And many users notice. At first I would not help them to install Chrome or told them Firefox was simply better. Over time one by one they just install it themselves.<p>And that was the era when Mozilla thought Javascript speed would solve everything, and Memory bloat was the root of all evil and started MemShrink later.<p>It wasn&#x27;t about the Open Web, Standards etc. None of the users cares about any of these. It was the actual browser UX.
Animatsabout 6 years ago
I see some of those &quot;Oops&quot; items. Recently, Codero&#x27;s hosting dashboard stopped working with Firefox. They blame the Firefox configuration. They&#x27;re trying to do something with cross-site cookies that Firefox doesn&#x27;t like.
neil_sabout 6 years ago
I didn&#x27;t understand the parallel to Sidewalk Labs, can someone please share more context?
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Abishek_Muthianabout 6 years ago
&gt;gmail &amp; gdocs started to experience selective performance issues and bugs on Firefox. Demo sites would falsely block Firefox as “incompatible.”<p>&gt;All of this is stuff you’re allowed to do to compete, of course.<p>Of-course not, any country with decent enough anti-competitive laws would give a verdict in favour of Firefox. But I do understand why Firefox did not take legal route.
ronilanabout 6 years ago
Related reading (2008) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thetruthaboutmozilla.wordpress.com&#x2F;2008&#x2F;02&#x2F;25&#x2F;the-google-browser&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thetruthaboutmozilla.wordpress.com&#x2F;2008&#x2F;02&#x2F;25&#x2F;the-go...</a><p>(That’s a year an a half before Chrome launched with a leaked comic book)
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deanclatworthyabout 6 years ago
A better format for reading:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;threadreaderapp.com&#x2F;thread&#x2F;1116871231792455686.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;threadreaderapp.com&#x2F;thread&#x2F;1116871231792455686.html</a>
dastxabout 6 years ago
For the past 3 years I&#x27;ve noticed gmail being extra slow on Firefox. Every other site loads almost instantly, except gmail. Even when I used to use Facebook, it would load fairly quick. Chrome wasn&#x27;t much quicker or slower. Except for gmail. Gmail loads almost instantly on Chrome. I&#x27;ve basically given up on using mail&#x27;s web interface even though I much prefer it over all linux mail clients.
loudtieblahblahabout 6 years ago
With AMP, the fact MS Edge is joining the chromium ranks ensuring more and more sites are Chrome only, all the &quot;oops&quot; stuff. Google is worse than MS ever was
foucabout 6 years ago
A tale of how Google won against end users - introduced aggressive auto-updates under the guise of &quot;security &amp; safety&quot;.
cromwellianabout 6 years ago
Since Inbox is often brought up as a textbook example, I&#x27;ll give my two cents and some history. This is my post-mortem perspective, and the opinion of my former team members may be different.<p>I worked on Inbox from inception (as a former member of the GWT team), at the time Google was moving towards &#x27;mobile first&#x27; (notice how there&#x27;s no still Web version of the new Google Calendar), so the new generation of apps prioritized architecture and design for native-mobile and material design over desktop. Inbox was mostly written in a shared Java codebase transpiled with GWT (later J2CL) and J2ObjC (for iOS), so it could run natively on mobile from a single codebase. It obtained &gt;75% code reuse between platforms, but a result of that however was a rather large SPA on the Web.<p>Because of its design as an installable material-design mobile app, it forced bleeding edge technology on the Web version to maintain a shared codebase. So for example, because it includes an entire compiled datastore&#x2F;synchronization engine that is too heavyweight to run on the browser UI thread, it made early use intensive of WebWorkers to simulate multithreading (at a time when there were lots of browser implementation bugs in Workers). For most of the time that I worked on it, Firefox Dev Tools couldn&#x27;t even debug web workers well, and often Firefox dev tools would just fail with huge size of SPAs like Inbox.<p>Getting material-design style animations compositing at 60fps cross browser was also fraught with peril because the different browser renderers had very different ways they scheduled GPU texture uploads for compositing, different hazards when they fall back to software rasterization, and very poor devtools visibility into what would cause anomalous painting problems (excessive repaints, layouts, or straight up freezes waiting for the GPU). Yes, today that is all much better, but in 2012 it wasn&#x27;t, and short of getting ahold of browser engineers and asking them to hook up C++ debuggers or instrumentation to tell Web engineers why rendering was failing, debugging performance jank was hard. When we ran into a rendering problem with Chrome, we&#x27;d file bugs against Blink, and when we encountered problems with Firefox, we&#x27;d contact the engineers there. Perhaps because of heavy work on Firefox OS at the time, the Blink engineers would respond with help faster, so that obviously had an effect on performance differentials and delays, especially when the problems are mystifying to a Web Dev without browser internals knowledge.<p>Even something as simple as Javascript arrays were fraught with peril. Inbox made heavy use of protobuffers. Protobuffers compiled to JS exist as sparse arrays in Javascript due to proto-number extensions having huge gaps. Well, on Firefox at the time, if you did something like var a = [], a[100000000]=1, and then Object.keys(a), it would return an array with 100 million elements IIRC, but Chrome&#x2F;Safari&#x2F;Edge would return an array of 1 element. When you tried to debug this, Firefox Dev Tools would just freeze. It took me a week of inserting console.logs and bisecting until I figured it out.<p>(see <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bugzilla.mozilla.org&#x2F;show_bug.cgi?id=1045391" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bugzilla.mozilla.org&#x2F;show_bug.cgi?id=1045391</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bugzilla.mozilla.org&#x2F;show_bug.cgi?id=1088189" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;bugzilla.mozilla.org&#x2F;show_bug.cgi?id=1088189</a>)<p>Now you could say argue one of the following: 1) Google could have held up shipping Inbox until Firefox and Edge fixed all of their bugs that were blocking it 2) They could have just shipped the Android&#x2F;iOS versions and held up the Web versions 3) They could have chose a different architecture (no shared code with mobile, rewrite a custom 100% web version from scratch) 4) Avoided excessive use of WebWorkers or SPAs 5) Not required a UI design&#x2F;DOM structure that would require complex layout and painting stressing rendering pipelines<p>But no where in there was any active attempt to try and disadvantage other browsers. They sat out with an ambitious design for a Web app that they wanted to be 100% in parity with native mobile versions, and then found out that the Web platform itself wasn&#x27;t up to handling it. Chrome could <i>barely</i> handle Inbox in 2012.
AlexandrBabout 6 years ago
Here&#x27;s an article about the referenced &quot;slow play&quot; by Sidewalk Labs: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thelogic.co&#x2F;news&#x2F;exclusive&#x2F;waterfront-toronto-chair-expects-sidewalk-labs-final-plan-to-be-a-few-months-late&#x2F;?&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thelogic.co&#x2F;news&#x2F;exclusive&#x2F;waterfront-toronto-chair-...</a><p>Unfortunately most of it is behind a paywall. Can anyone else provide additional context?
Dolores12about 6 years ago
How about we put all these &#x27;oopses&#x27; in one place and keep updating?
forgotAgainabout 6 years ago
SSDD: Windows isn&#x27;t done until Lotus doesn&#x27;t work
wanoneabout 6 years ago
reCaptcha on any other browser than Chrome is nightmare. Hate what Google is doing to web.
HunOLabout 6 years ago
They did it to Opera. Why shouldn&#x27;t do it for Firefox?
decafbadabout 6 years ago
Tried?
boukestamabout 6 years ago
I don&#x27;t understand why nobody even thinks for a second that the reason why chrome is used more is just because it&#x27;s better. If firefox would just stop complaining and look at chrome and what it does right they might actually learn something from it. Like microsoft who are now going to use chromium
neilvabout 6 years ago
One way Mozilla could still differentiate is by doing privacy&amp;security all-out.<p>It currently seems that Firefox is only a little more privacy-respecting than the browser of one of the most invasive surveillance dotcoms.<p>It&#x27;s been that way for years, and every year is lost ground.<p>I suspect that Mozilla&#x27;s need for funding, and the sources of funding for so long, are what have them looking so similar to a dotcom.<p>When users won&#x27;t pay money, Mozilla has seemed to focus on ways to sell its users to big companies.<p>Maybe there&#x27;s a viable combination of expense reductions, refined focus, and switching to solely charitable (hands-off) donations? (Maybe we&#x27;d see little sponsor logos for most of the FAANGs, for various motivations. And for some other Fortune 500s, for good PR. And for public-interest organizations and government units&#x2F;programs.)
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Causality1about 6 years ago
I feel like Mozilla had definitely had a culture change during this whole time period, and I&#x27;m not a huge fan of where it&#x27;s ended up. It seemed to start like a ray of light from the heavens, proclaiming to all how much better a browser could be than Internet Explorer. After that, it entered what I would call the Firefox golden age, from 2006-2011. In that time Firefox built an identity around browser customization and user choice. The shift to copycat Chrome with rapid versioning at Firefox 5 in 2011 was the start of the end for the power user culture at Mozilla. Ever since then, Firefox features have been trimmed with every release, seemingly in lock-step with its shrinking market share. Functions that used to be accessed with a button press were relegated to the about:config menu, and then to extensions, and then support for those extensions gradually rotted away.<p>Mozilla&#x27;s respect for their users has shrunk so much that something as simple as putting the tabs below the address bar and bookmarks bar is virtually impossible on Firefox 66, when it used to be as simple as clicking the customize button and dragging things where you wanted them.