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Meditations on Moloch (2014)

226 pointsby dhh2106about 6 years ago

18 comments

ex3xuabout 6 years ago
This was a mostly entertaining read, if a bit all over the place. I do have one point to offer -- I noticed this article quotes liberally from Bostrom, Nick, but misses another thinker who has relevant ideas about avoiding what this author refers to as "multipolar traps" -- Ostrom, Elinor. I recommend those who are interested in resources for the fight against Moloch to look into her book Governing the Commons, as she devised a set of principles for managing common-pool resources to avoid these types of traps, at least in specific concrete scenarios.
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lkbmabout 6 years ago
This, and Inadequate Equilibria have been a useful way of viewing societies problems. They&#x27;ve also raised red flags on things that I think are definitely Good.<p>Notably, both of these talk about problems in science, and how it&#x27;s &quot;easy&quot; to solve...if you have a Science God to issue the Science Decree.<p>And then we start overthrowing the evil Science God Elsevier in favor of a more decentralized science publishing. This is a huge victory for good over evil, but it takes the form of replacing the evil Science God with Moloch.<p>Centralization enables despotism. Decentralization enables Moloch. Coordination problems are a real issue we need to address; preferably without abusive consolidation of power.
richeyrwabout 6 years ago
For those who prefer audio (podcast) here&#x27;s an audio version of it (read by yours truly, though I did clips of Ginsburg whenever he quotes from the poem.)<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;traffic.libsyn.com&#x2F;sscpodcast&#x2F;Meditations_on_Moloch.mp3" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;traffic.libsyn.com&#x2F;sscpodcast&#x2F;Meditations_on_Moloch.m...</a>
posterboyabout 6 years ago
The monarch isn&#x27;t free of moloch, if he has become moloch. He isn&#x27;t free of himself. He is not selfless. He can&#x27;t embody selflessness, because that would paradoxically require freedome from selflessness. It&#x27;s an unachievable ideal. He can however try to destruct everything and everyone. That would be another form of selflessness. Thus, selfishness is a necessary property of being.<p>Instead of looking at rulers, the picture has to start at the root. I think they kinda skip over that fact, taking it for granted, though the first principia discordia quote that&#x27;s noted does imply it.
Matumioabout 6 years ago
Here is an animation of part of the poem (3min), for those who are too busy lifting Moloch to the sky to read a whole essay: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=Nonab6djMAA" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=Nonab6djMAA</a>
nestorDabout 6 years ago
A very good essay, also a deeply depressing one if you do not get to the end and consider his solution viable.
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paulpauperabout 6 years ago
I think the fish farm parable fails when one considers few number of farms and more realistic conditions <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;greyenlightenment.com&#x2F;fish-farm-economies&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;greyenlightenment.com&#x2F;fish-farm-economies&#x2F;</a>
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SonOfLilitabout 6 years ago
I once thought a TL;DR of this excellent essay is impossible, but then Eliezer Yudkowsky more or less managed it in Chapter 3 of Inadequate Equilibria:<p>Inspired by Allan Ginsberg’s poem Moloch, Scott Alexander once wrote of coordination failures:<p>&gt; Moloch is introduced as the answer to a question—C. S. Lewis’ question in Hierarchy Of Philosophers—what does it? Earth could be fair, and all men glad and wise. Instead we have prisons, smokestacks, asylums. What sphinx of cement and aluminum breaks open their skulls and eats up their imagination?<p>&gt; And Ginsberg answers: Moloch does it.<p>&gt;There’s a passage in the Principia Discordia where Malaclypse complains to the Goddess about the evils of human society. “Everyone is hurting each other, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war.”<p>&gt; The Goddess answers: “What is the matter with that, if it’s what you want to do?”<p>&gt; Malaclypse: “But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it!”<p>&gt; Goddess: “Oh. Well, then stop.”<p>&gt; The implicit question is—if everyone hates the current system, who perpetuates it? And Ginsberg answers: “Moloch.” It’s powerful not because it’s correct—nobody literally thinks an ancient Carthaginian demon causes everything—but because thinking of the system as an agent throws into relief the degree to which the system isn’t an agent.<p>Scott Alexander saw the face of the Enemy, and he gave it a name—thinking that perhaps that would help.
oli5679about 6 years ago
The whole essay is interesting, but I was particularly impressed by how vividly he articulated a lot of dry economic concepts in the first section.
ambicapterabout 6 years ago
This is the article that made me really pay attention to Slate Star Codex.
NateEagabout 6 years ago
This is a great essay. It&#x27;s lengthy but it uses its bulk to great effect.<p>It may be the best articulation I have seen of the Christian idea that the world is fallen.<p>And yes, when we say that, this is what we mean.
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hamilyon2about 6 years ago
Well, armed forces and defence&#x2F;offense complex predates everything else in his examples.<p>And actually demand army creates in sosiety may be very very useful since it drives innovation.
obviuoslyabout 6 years ago
I always get a justification of the elitist exploitation vibe from these kinds of writings. &quot;We can&#x27;t do anything about it, it&#x27;s just prisoner&#x27;s dilemmas all the way down. Move along, nothing to see here&quot;.
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pete23about 6 years ago
“I am a transhumanist because I do not have enough hubris not to try to kill God.”<p>This essay is excellent - gets a little bogged down in rubbing your nose in enough examples, but has enough depth of concept to compensate.
mbrockabout 6 years ago
The mythological framing of this essay and its theme of good and evil as they appear in economics and war remind me of a great book, Elaine Scarry&#x27;s <i>The Body in Pain</i>.<p>This book is an exploration of making and unmaking, where making is civilization as materialized care for pain and discomfort and unmaking is the opposite demonstrated by the document tendency of torturers in war to use benign household items as weapons, thus inverting the structure of civilization.<p>Here a simple quote to show Scarry&#x27;s way of appreciating made objects:<p>&gt; It is almost universally the case in everyday life that the most cherished object is one that has been hand-made by a friend: there is no mystery about this, for the object&#x27;s material attributes themselves record and memorialize the intensely personal, extraordinary because exclusive, interior feelings of the maker for just this person: This is for you. But anonymous, mass-produced objects contain a collective and equally extraordinary message: Whoever you are, and whether or not I personally like or even know you, in at least this small way, be well.<p>And here a more in-depth quote from the book&#x27;s introduction to show the deeper purpose of the book which is to hold up the imagining and construction of material civilization as a primary ethical concern, being the positive inverse of torture and war:<p>&gt; The vocabulary of &quot;creating,&quot; &quot;inventing,&quot; &quot;making,&quot; &quot;imagining,&quot; is not in the twentieth century a morally resonant one: &quot;imagining,&quot; for example, is usually described as an ethically neutral or amoral phenomenon; the phrase &quot;material making&quot; is similarly flat in its connotations, and is even (because of its conflation with &quot;materialism&quot;) sometimes pronounced with a derisive inflection. But an unspoken question begins to arise in Part One which might be formulated in the following way: given that the deconstruction of creation is present in the structure of one event which is widely recognized as being close to an absolute of immorality (torture), and given that the deconstruction of creation is again present in the structure of a second event regarded as morally problematic by everyone and as radically immoral by some (war), is it not peculiar that the very thing being deconstructed—creation—does not in its intact form have a moral claim on us that is as high as the others&#x27; is low, that the action of creating is not, for example, held to be bound up with justice in the way those other events are bound up with injustice, that it (the mental, verbal, or material process of making the world) is not held to be centrally entailed in the elimination of pain as the unmaking of the world is held to be entailed in pain&#x27;s infliction? The morality of creating cannot, of course, be inferred from the immorality of uncreating, and will instead be shown on its own terms. That we ordinarily perceive it as empty of ethical content is, it will be argued, itself a signal to us of how faulty and fragmentary our understanding of creation is, not only in this respect but in many others. It is not the valorization of making but its accurate description that is crucial, for if it is in fact laden with ethical consequence, then it may be that a firm understanding of what it is will in turn enable us to recognize more quickly what is happening not only in large-scale emergencies like torture or war but in other long-standing dilemmas, such as the inequity of material distribution.
paolabout 6 years ago
This is one of the best essays I&#x27;ve ever read.<p>I was surprised to find it was never discussed on HN (plenty of submissions, no traction). So go read it HNers.
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posterboyabout 6 years ago
Can I get a quick summary?<p>By the way, does anyone know and use automatic summary plug-ins?
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ErotemeObelusabout 6 years ago
I can&#x27;t stand slatestarcodex or lesswrong. They&#x27;re not INTP but try really hard to be.<p>And MBPI--because it&#x27;s based on field observations in the 1910&#x27;s--is the least politically correct typology.
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