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On the evidence of a single coin toss

17 pointsby alexkayover 14 years ago

6 comments

blahedoover 14 years ago
There are at least three different lines of inquiry here:<p>- Hypothesis testing. If the [null] hypothesis is that p(heads) is 1, you can't prove this, only disprove it. So: "doesn't sway". Not very interesting, but there it is.<p>- Simple Bayesian. The probability of his claim given that it comes up heads, p(C|H), is the prior of his claim, p(C), times p(H|C), divided by p(H). Well, p(H|C) is 1 (that <i>is</i> the claim), and p(H), if I fudge things a little bit, is about 1/2, so p(C|H) should be about double p(C)---assuming p(C) is very low to start with.[0][2]<p>- Complex Bayesian. There's a hidden probability in the simple case, because p(C) is encompassing both my belief in coins generally and also my belief about Tom's truthtelling. So really I have p(C) "p that the claim is true" but also p(S) "p that Tom stated the claim to me". Thus also p(S|C) "p that if the claim were true, Tom would state this claim to me" and p(C|S) "p of the claim being true given that Tom stated it to me"; but also the highly relevant p(S|not C) "p of that if the claim were NOT true, Tom would state this claim to me ANYWAY" and a few other variants. When you start doing Bayesian analysis with more than two variables you nearly always need to account for both p(A|B) and p(A|not B) for at least some of the cases, even where you could sometimes fudge this in the simpler problems.<p>SO this brings us to a formulation of the original question as: what is the relationship between p(C|S,H) and p(C|S)? The former as p(H|C,S)p(C,S)/(p(C,S,H) + p(not C,S,H)) and then p(H|C,S)p(C,S)/(p(H|C,S)p(C,S) + p(H|not C,S)p(not C,S)) and if I take p(H|C,S) as 1 (given) and p(H|not C,S) as 1/2 (approximate), I'm left with p(C,S)/(p(C,S) + 0.5p(not C,S)) For the prior quantity p(C|S), a similar set of rewrites gives me p(C,S)/(p(C,S) + p(not C,S)) Now I'm in the home stretch, but I'm not done.<p>Here we have to break down p(C,S) and p(not C,S). For p(C,S) we can use p(C)p(S|C), which is "very small" times "near 1", assuming Tom would be really likely to state that claim if it were true (wouldn't <i>you</i> want to show off your magic coin?). The other one's more interesting. We rewrite p(not C,S) as p(not C)p(S|not C), which is "near 1" times "is Tom just messing with me?".<p>Because a <i>crucial</i> part of this analysis, which is missing in the hypothesis-test version or in the simpler Bayesian model, but "obvious" to anyone who approaches it from a more intuitive standpoint, is that it matters a <i>lot</i> whether you think Tom might be lying in the first place, and whether he's the sort that would state a claim like this just to get a reaction or whatever. In the case where you basically trust Tom ("he wouldn't say that unless he at least thought it to be true") then the terms of p(C,S) + p(not C,S) might be of comparable magnitude, and multiplying the second of them by 1/2 will have a noticeable effect. But if you think Tom likely to state a claim like this, even if false, just for effect (or any other reason), then p(C,S) + p(not C,S) is <i>hugely</i> dominated by that second term, which would be many orders of magnitude larger than the first, and so multiplying that second term by 1/2 is still going to leave it orders of magnitude larger, and the overall probability—even with the extra evidence—remains negligible.<p>[0] This clearly breaks if p(C) is higher than 1/2, because twice that is more than 1. If we assume that the prior p(H) is a distribution over coins, centred on the fair ones and with a long tail going out to near-certainty at both ends, the claim "this coin is an always-heads coin"[1] is removing a chunk of that distribution in the H direction, meaning that p(H|not C) is actually slightly, very slightly, greater than 1/2. This is the "fudge" I refer to above that lets me put the p(H) as 1/2. Clearly if my prior p(C) is higher than "very small" this would be inconsistent with the prior p(H) I've described.<p>[1] I'm further assuming that "always" means "reallllllly close to always", because otherwise the claim is trivially false and the problem isn't very interesting.<p>[2] Note that this is not actually a "naive Bayesian" approach---that's a technical term that means something more complicated.
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julesover 14 years ago
Say you have a prior probability distribution P(p) for the probability you think the coin is a coin that comes up heads with probability p. Your probability distribution P(p) will probably have a huge peak around p=0.5, but you can choose any prior belief. So P(p) is your opinion about the coin prior to seeing the experiment. Now we can apply Bayes' theorem to compute your opinion P'(p) about the coin after seeing the experiment:<p><pre><code> P'(p) = P(p | H) = P(H | p)*P(p)/P(H) = p*P(p)/integral(P(H | p)*P(p)dp) = p*/E(P) * P(p) </code></pre> Your belief that the coin has probability p is skewed by a factor of p/E(p).<p>Here's an example of a graph of P(p) that shows how your belief about the coin is skewed after seeing a heads:<p><a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/388822/coin.png" rel="nofollow">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/388822/coin.png</a><p>The first graph is an example of a prior belief about the coin, the second graph is the belief that this person should have after seeing the experiment.<p>So the answer to the question is:<p><pre><code> P'(1) = 1/E(P) * P(1) = P(1)/E(P) </code></pre> i.e. your new probability that this is a coin that always comes up heads is your old probability divided by your expected value of the probability of coming up heads.<p>For example if your prior belief was unbiased, then E(P)=0.5, and P'(1) = 2*P(1).
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vibragielover 14 years ago
I think this problem has no satisfactory answer. We are asked to operate with quantifiable information —probability of special and normal coins coming up heads— and unquantifiable information —my "belief" in a coin being a special coin, which may, or may not, depend on my level of knowledge of several factors, like the plausibility of the existence of special coins, their prevalence, my competence identifying them...<p>EDIT: ...my friend being or not a usual liar, his sleight-of-hand skills, my level of rational analysis and critical thinking, me being on drugs, me dreaming, me actually experiencing the Matrix...<p>We are trying to quantify the unquantifiable: my "belief" in something, a psychological phenomenon which depends on millions of rational and irrational factors.
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proemethover 14 years ago
This is a bayesian problem, depending on the a priori probability given to a "special dice" pri,<p>P = 2 * pri / (1+pri)<p>(Which is &#62; to the probability before tossing)
kondroover 14 years ago
Everyone here seems to be so much smarter than me at this math stuff.<p>I think I'll stick to writing accounting software.
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SeanDavover 14 years ago
Well it will have an effect. He could be telling the truth or lying. This has to be taken into account. The question is how much weighting you give to his statement. If you inclined to believe his statement then the first heads must increase the confidence, for a given weighting.