My Dad owns a construction company in a highly unionized region. He is an advocate for unions, although he acknowledges that quality varies among them. That said, many of the conditions where unions are beneficial don't seem to apply in tech:<p>* Vocational training: unions in our area run schools to train craftsman (e.g. carpenters). This increases productivity and screens for quality.<p>* Shifting workforce: Construction companies expand/contract as they get big jobs. The union is a clearinghouse that enables tradespeople to switch between companies as they expand/contract. The union also helps by running benefit programs that travel with the workers.<p>* Commodity-ish labor: Most carpenters have about the same productivity, so it makes sense to negotiate their compensation in bulk. Unions don't work as well when productivity/value varies greatly between workers.<p>I also worked as an apprentice carpenter for several summers during college. I wouldn't say that the carpenters I worked with had a glowing view of the union. They seemed suspicious that the union reps were corrupt, and talked about how they would "shut down the job" over minor union infractions. They also believed the "hall" was corrupt/political in how it matched carpenters who were out of work to jobs. Several were also contemptuous of what they saw as the union discouraging hard work (if you were working hard, you were "ruining the job.")<p>The main point I am trying to make is that unions are complex from both the employer and employee side.
I used to be all around anti-union. Now that I'm older I regret that position. There are bad unions and there are good unions. Sometimes they can be corrupt, but they never really exceed the corruptness of the corporate powers they negotiate with. It's an imperfect solution, but it's the only one that seems to work. The idea that we are all lone super stars that need to negotiate for ourselves is not only selfish, but more than likely wrong. Even if I considered myself a super-coder, should I be willing to sacrifice the well-being of everyone else in my field?<p>Tech workers feel pretty good here in the US because they are compensated better than most. The time to organize is now, not after worker supply has increased or during a recession when workers are more desperate. We have real issues (Ageism, Working Conditions, etc) that we'll never be able to address individually.
I'm always amazed at the complete double standard between unions and companies.<p>Look at the discussion here: lots of people arguing against unions, saying they're just plain bad, or they're good in some industries but not in tech, or we just don't need them, or whatever.<p>And not to say that these arguments are wrong, but....<p>Hands up, how many of you think that it's a good idea to run a business with employees as a sole proprietorship?<p>I'm pretty sure there are no hands up. The first thing you do when you're going to create a business with employees is to organize. This is so ingrained that we don't even think about it. When was the last time you saw "Ask HN: do I need to incorporate?" Of <i>course</i> you do. There are many questions around where to do it and what type of corporation to create and what ownership structure you want to use and so forth, but there's <i>no</i> question about whether it's a good idea.<p>When employees band together to negotiate collectively, we call that a "union" and we come up with many reasons why this may not be a good idea.<p>When employers band together to negotiate collectively, we call that a "corporation" and nobody takes even a moment to wonder whether or not this is a good thing to do.<p>If workers are better off without organization, maybe the same is true on the management side? Instead of big companies, we should have individual managers on their own, employing a team as a sole proprietor.
The benefit in tech is options. Don't like your job, get another one. Don't like your boss, get another one. For many locations it's just the matter of turning a button on Linkedin or for many people sending some emails.<p>That keeps people idealistic, vocal and demanding of the behavior from their employer/bosses. This is not the norm in other business functions. Unfortunately.
Tangent - there was an article on the NYTimes the other day about how their editorial work was trivializing Bernie Sanders political impact the last election and actually using misleading headlines to distort the truth. I’ll try to find the link (on my phone now). It was pretty eye opening and had links to sources as well as exposing some of these editors and their role working for the Clinton camp.<p>I call this out because I see a steady stream of NYT articles that focus on big tech in a negative way.<p>Big tech has its problems and should be regulated. On the other hand, I question the NYT and their motive. This clearly isn’t honest journalism but NYT focusing on companies that are now directly competing with the NYT.<p>Edit: article I was referring to
<a href="https://fair.org/home/sidney-embers-secret-sources/" rel="nofollow">https://fair.org/home/sidney-embers-secret-sources/</a>
“In other cases, highly compensated engineers may see themselves as independent operators who have plenty of leverage on their own and thus do not need to join a union effort.”<p>This is definitely my feeling. When I can just open up LinkedIn and browse all the unsolicited interview requests I get, I don’t end up feeling like I really need a union to protect my current job - I can always just leave and go somewhere else if I’m unhappy.<p>That said, if someone asked me to vote for it I might do that, but I wouldn’t put the effort into organizing myself.
This is going to be a unpopular opinion. I think a tech union would likely be good for the average tech worker - and bad for absolutely everyone else, broader society included.<p>Cartels and price-fixing agreements are extremely lucrative, which is why they were commonplace until outlawed by antitrust legislation, and why cartels like OPEC still operate today. Unions and collective bargaining are no different. Unions are equivalent to a cartel of labor-suppliers, and collective bargaining is identical to price-fixing.<p>Just like with cartels and price-fixing agreements, unionizing would likely benefit the average tech worker. It would also have an extremely bad effect on innovation, bureaucracy, and cost-of-tech-development which would spill over to consumers in the form of higher prices.<p>I'm in favor of breaking up big corporations, as well as implementing a wealth tax, raising the top tax rates, and strengthening the social safety net. But I don't think encouraging the formation of cartels and price-fixing agreements is in society's best interests.
In my opinion, unions are very valuable in cases where employees cannot effectively realize market value for their skillset.<p>This can happen for a number of reasons:<p>1. In cases of specialized skills (like working at a factory where you've trained on a particular machine).
2. In cases of natural or artificial monopolies (like working for a federal government).
3. In cases where companies and workers incentives are misaligned (like that of a construction worker).<p>Probably more that I'm missing.<p>I don't see how the current software engineer market meets this condition.<p>There are more open software engineering jobs than there are software engineers. If my employer mistreats me, I'll leave and go to a different company, and likely I can find a job just as good very easily.<p>I'm not sure how a union would benefit me personally.
There has to be a balance of power between labor and management. When management has too much power, that power will be abused. When labor has too much power, that power will be abused.<p>Unions make sense when labor doesn't have any power. Do programmers have enough power? I'd say yes. Maybe not across the board but -- in general -- yes. We aren't coal miners, that's for sure.
The countries with the best human welfare indicators also have the highest percentage of people in unions. It’s the only countervailing force against plutocratic power.
Maybe unionization needs a disrupt? I'm not against unionization in a lot of industries, but it just doesn't make sense in its current form for the tech scene or any other high demand position. It feels like an outdated mechanism used for people who were happy to sit in the same role, doing the same thing, for 45yrs.
It’s generally my understanding that unions tend to decrease labor mobility, and are most effective for improving working conditions when labor mobility is naturally very low, as in industries dominated by a few players (shipping, auto) or where company-specific knowledge becomes very important (retail, maybe construction?). Industries with a high proportion of freelancers tend to form guilds, which are slightly different and often focus on licensure (barbers, doctors, lawyers). But programmers — like managers, accountants and bankers — have highly transferable skills that give them lots of employment options. Additionally, programming creates its own communication skills by (literal) networking, which aids programmers searching for jobs (they can send code samples over a wire). As such, competition for labor is more effective in tech than in many other fields.
How come the NY Times doesn't push for unions for Wall St? Surely these guys slaving away over spreadsheets for Silicon Valley level pay should be unionized too, right?
> “Associating unions with blue-collar work and making it a stigma to talk about unions in white-collar circles, that’s very deliberate”<p>This is my observation too, right now there is simply a correlation that doesn't have to be.<p>It doesn't matter that you get paid a comfortable amount, and that another startup delivers snacks all day, and another startup delivers catered food to you: you aren't getting paid what you are worth to these companies.<p>The board members are just the VCs and the founders and they aren't in a position to change that. The fraction of a fraction of a percent equity that they told you "was a generous amount" after feeding your face has nothing to do with what a more equitable amount could be. Doesn't give you any information about all the scenarios in which you would get nothing because the strike is too high and the preferred shares liquidity preferences are too onerous.<p>Even the cash component of tech compensation could likely be 75-150% higher. This has nothing to do with the stagnating wages in other sectors, we are working with this generation's largest and fastest growing companies and could accelerate comp growth and other changes.
I acknowledge that there are definite issues at play with employment in the tech industry, but, come on; we are one of the most coddled and well-payed segments of the entire laboring economy. Maybe unions aren't being organized because we aren't forced to work graveyard shifts with few to no breaks for very little pay? I'm not sure the actual issues at hand in the tech industry are best addressed by unions (at least in the traditional sense).
The tech industry today, is captured quite well by Rolling Stone's Victor Juhasz illustrations<p><a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/BzJO6ELjJT9/" rel="nofollow">https://www.instagram.com/p/BzJO6ELjJT9/</a><p><a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/BzJP9nlDA5c/" rel="nofollow">https://www.instagram.com/p/BzJP9nlDA5c/</a><p>Thinking that unions are going to have an effect is like believing flies effect pigs.
I already feel distrust for my outspoken colleagues who purport to speak for me when making demands of management, but would treat me like James Damore if I dissented from their opinions.<p>The last thing I want is to let those same people formally represent me in a union. Given the current climate, those are very likely to be the people who would be running it.
For a long time I had an impression that Microsoft had some kind of union(s) like group running things there.<p>Is it so, or my memory is playing tricks with me?
Tech unions are a way for bureaucrats to take a tax off the backs of hard working tech workers with no benefits.<p>I am well off, have a flexible work life balance, and I enjoy my job. There is nothing that a union would bring to the table for me.<p>If there was a union in Silicon Valley in the early 80s, we would be no where close to where we are today. Look at the stark difference between a Silicon Valley worker vs someone working at Boeing or other unionized shops.