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Launch HN: Lofty AI (YC S19) – Real estate investment with alternative data

81 pointsby loftyaialmost 6 years ago
Hi Hacker News Community,<p>My name is Jerry, and I’m one co-founders for Lofty AI (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lofty.ai&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.lofty.ai&#x2F;</a>). We use machine learning to help identify homes where values are likely to appreciate, and we help home buyers buy them. People can partner up with us to buy a recommended property. If they do, we are willing to cover any potential losses on the property. In exchange, the buyer agrees to share some of the future profit on the home with us. The agreement lasts 3 years.<p>Before starting this company, my co-founder and I had tried to invest in homes. However, we quickly got tired of realtors telling us to make offers based on very little data. We wanted to figure out a way to buy affordable homes that had the highest growth potential via a data driven approach. We realized there was a wealth of new alternative data out there, which could be used to predict both neighborhood growth and individual property growth. This alternative data we envisioned ranged from the growth in the number of postings on social media about a specific dog breed, to the number of restaurants in an area serving a specific type of trendy food, to the average wait time for ride sharing apps, and the average maximum temperature an area can experience.<p>Our tech involves running clustering to identify trends and keywords from text based data (e.g.: social media photo tags, business reviews) that are associated with different categories of neighborhoods (for example: rich&#x2F;suburban&#x2F;static, middle-class&#x2F;urban&#x2F;growing). We then take these insights and feed them into a larger model with historical home prices, house level features, and an array of other numeric features (e.g. ride sharing wait times, new businesses) that predicts future home price on both an individual property and neighborhood level. With this trained model we can then predict future home prices based on these alternative data sources (as well a few traditional data sources). As we ingest more data going forward we are constantly retraining and reoptimizing our models. Along with successful backtesting we have been tracking our predictions to validate our models in production and have found that properties we had identified 12 months ago have beaten the market in appreciation by an average of 14 points (yay!).<p>Most young working professionals want to live in or near large metropolitan cities for the lifestyle and better jobs market. This has contributed to extremely high home prices for places like the bay area and many young professionals end up paying rent that is on par with a mortgage payment. However, instead of building equity in their own future through an investment, they are simply making their landlords richer.<p>We want to change this by giving people another option. They can now invest in a home and their capital can be protected should the investment flop. The trade off is that these homes tend to be located in areas not “currently” deemed to be a desirable neighborhood. In essence, we want to help inexperienced home buyers make smarter decisions, and we are willing to risk our own capital for that. In the event of a downturn in the market we are hedging our exposure by buying deep out of the money options that track the real estate market. These hedges are also attached to each individual contract so even if we were to go out of business before the maturation of the agreement or before a downturn in the market your downside protection would still be alive and well! As a result, anything that’s above a 20% decline across the portfolio will be covered by the hedging instruments, so we only need to be able to guarantee the range between 0 to -20% using our own capital. To make sure we can abide by the guarantee, we know exactly how many contracts we can enter into, and we will not go above that threshold until we obtain more funding.<p>Sign up with us to receive a list of recommended properties that our models think will appreciate over the next 3 years. Make an offer on the property you like the most using any method you’d like. If you don’t have an agent you work with, we can recommend you one along with helping you get a mortgage. After you make an offer on a home, you enter into a contract with us. We agree to cover losses over the next 3 years and in exchange, you share some of the future upside with us.<p>Let us know if you have any questions or insights, and I’ll be happy to respond! Feel free to directly reach out to me at jerry@lofty.ai as well. We’d love to hear your feedback and suggestions!

20 comments

onlyrealcuzzoalmost 6 years ago
I&#x27;ll start by saying that I assume you know much more about the market than me, given that you&#x27;ve started this company and made it into YC.<p>If I read your post right -- the way your insurance works is:<p>I&#x27;m a home buyer. I think the housing market is frothy right now, but I want to buy a home anyway. So I can use your insurance to protect myself in the event the value of my house decreases in the future.<p>Your company is directly responsible for the first 20% decline. After that, other companies are responsible for the rest. And even if you go out of business, I&#x27;m still covered by those other companies.<p>Firstly, is that correct?<p>Secondly, if so -- what happens if you go out of business and my house goes down exactly 20%? I assume that means I have no coverage.<p>Thirdly, who&#x27;s insuring the houses after a 20% decline? And why should I have any reason to believe they&#x27;d still be in business if the market collapses 20%+? The last time that happened, almost every insurance company and investment bank went out of business.<p>Finally, how much does this cost as a percentage of the house&#x27;s current value yearly? Roughly...<p>It&#x27;s an interesting idea. Despite the fact that most home buyers anticipate house price appreciation to underperform historical averages (and a lot of buyers actually think prices will go down) -- a lot of houses are being bought. I think a lot of those people would want an option like this.
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whoisjuanalmost 6 years ago
Do you have any type of financial insurance to backup of your claim that you will cover losses if the property sells for less? I&#x27;m not talking about having the money available to cover the losses, but actually being around at all to honor that claim.<p>What happens if I buy today and your company goes to hell in two years? How can I trust this transaction with a horizon of 3 years without fully knowing how are you going to perform as a company.<p>Of course, if you disappear and I don&#x27;t have to honor the 20% it&#x27;s a win for me, but if I buy based on your data and after 3 years the property value is way down and you&#x27;re not around to honor your loss-covering promise then I&#x27;m fucked. I bought a house because you told me it was going to appreciate, but it didn&#x27;t. Now what? Do you have a way to pay me back even if your company is not around anymore?<p>There&#x27;s something about the model that doesn&#x27;t make sense to me.
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Jemaclusalmost 6 years ago
For years the simplest heuristic I can find for finding up-and-coming places has been &quot;Where is Starbucks opening new stores?&quot; I assume Lofty&#x27;s is much more complicated than that, but I&#x27;d be curious to see what the overlap is between the Starbucks Strategy (TM) and Lofty AI&#x27;s.<p>I do have a few more questions though:<p>- Also, are you focusing on primary residences, homes as investments (i.e., rentals)? Do you consider apartments, duplexes, or commercial real state?<p>- Do you have an idea of how long one would have to own these homes for the appreciation to appreciate in a significant enough way for it to be profitable?<p>- You mention &quot;some of the future profit&quot;. How much is that? 1%, 5%, 10%, 50%?
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SimianLogic2almost 6 years ago
Why did you decide on this business model (essentially downside insurance paid for by equity if I&#x27;m understanding it right) over something simpler like, say, subscription access to a newsletter?<p>What&#x27;s to stop someone from signing up for the list and just buying a property on their own? (i.e. What perks are you offering that make it worth doing the deal through you? Negotiations? Acting as a buyer&#x27;s agent?)<p>As a data point, I used to have a ruby script that would take a bunch of MLS IDs and go pull a ton of facts from Zillow and a few other sources. I would have my realtor set up a high-level search (i.e. SFH in these areas under $500k) and then take their daily emails and run them through my script to identify potentially &quot;undervalued&quot; properties. I still had to hand-check them after, but it was a pretty useful second filter (the MLS search being the first).
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ttcbjalmost 6 years ago
This is the first time I have ever seen an early stage company include Saint Louis in anything, so, thanks for that ;-).<p>That said, you say your market is:<p>&quot;Lofty AI is best for people who are: 1. Thinking of buying their first home, but are nervous about losing money. 2. Looking for higher returns than normal by buying properties in an appreciating neighborhood early.&quot;<p>1. I wonder if people who know they have to sell in the next three years, but don&#x27;t want to sell today (e.g. a work move) are also a target market. If I know my job is going to move me in 2 years, I might like to use your service to retain 80% of the upside, but insure against downside when I sell.<p>2. I once read a book about real-estate investing, which said that the real way you make money is to buy rental properties with poor cash flow, &#x27;fixup&#x27; the tenants to improve the cash flow, and then sell, repeatedly. I wonder if your appreciation-potential-evaluation&#x2F;downside-insurance model applied to rental properties for sale, combined with coaching&#x2F;tools for aspiring landlords, might be attractive.<p>It seems like right now, you are primarily using the purchaser as a source of capital, and other comments are saying &quot;why don&#x27;t you just raise the money yourself?&quot;, but if you were also using the purchaser as more like a franchisee, someone who is actively working to improve the cashflow of the property by upgrading the tenants with your (automated) advice, that might create a more interesting relationship where you have more room to add value (its more complex to analyze multi-tenant rentals, its more complex to choose high-potential landlord partners, etc).<p>Random thoughts. It&#x27;s a very interesting idea, very original.
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tryitnowalmost 6 years ago
Do you have any customer testimonials? It would be good to link to them.<p>This is definitely something I would never consider doing unless I&#x27;ve heard other people doing it, I would never want to be the guinea pig here.<p>And honestly, if I am financially clever enough to understand your value proposition then I&#x27;m probably financially clever enough enough to buy some downside protection on general real estate assets.<p>The most interesting value proposition here is the ability to predict future home prices, but if you could really do that you would be working for one of the massive real estate funds, for the same reason that someone who is really good at picking stocks will work for a hedge fund (and eventually create their own), that person isn&#x27;t going to decide to give investment advice to a gazillion pipsqueak investors or manage the accounts of a bunch of little investors, even if they can easily automate it.<p>In other words, the ability to predict asset prices is something that it makes sense to keep as private as possible, not something to share with the masses.
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eaenkialmost 6 years ago
Since your model consistently beats the market and you can hedge at city level, Wouldn’t you be better off just raising money for an hedge fund that goes long and short with some leverage?<p>It’s a cool idea anyway, good luck
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kevinguhalmost 6 years ago
You mention that you hedge your exposure to market downturns through deep OOTM options -- would it be safe to interpret this as your company taking out OOTM puts on various REITs&#x2F;ETFs? If so, I&#x27;m wondering about a couple things:<p>1. Do you hedge on REITs&#x2F;ETFs with a local presence in the areas your properties are located in? If so, is there any liquidation risk of the REIT&#x2F;ETF in the event of a major downturn that could force an early exit from your hedge position and leave you exposed to further decline? Also, how would you handle rebalancing&#x2F;constructing new hedges when you add investment properties in a new area?<p>2. If you hedge on broader diversified REITs&#x2F;ETFs, is it a plausible concern that your investment properties can be hit by a localized recession that leaves other parts of the broader real estate market unaffected, thus leaving your hedge unable to recoup the losses?
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josephpmayalmost 6 years ago
Against my better judgment, I&#x27;m gonna comment that I hate this.<p>This is certainly a good business&#x2F;investment opportunity. If your algorithms are any good you&#x27;ll make a lot of money, and you&#x27;ll help your customers make money.<p>My problem with Lofty is that it is bad for society.<p>Fundamentally, this is gentrification-as-a-service. You&#x27;re driving additional demand to neighborhoods at inflection points, and if it works well it&#x27;s definitely going to accelerate displacement. It is true that Blackrock et al already do this and likely have similar in-house algorithms, but this will widen the market and make things worse. I&#x27;m not completely against gentrification, especially when there&#x27;s development that increases market supply- and when done right that can actually decrease displacement. (an example you&#x27;re probably familiar with is the USC Village. Despite the criticism it gets, it removed thousands of student renters from the South Central LA market which likely resulted in downward pressure on prices) But housing speculation like this drives up prices and only hurts poor and minority communities.<p>To Jerry and Max: did you consider the ethical implications when deciding to start this? I completely see the angle that you&#x27;re democratizing access to an investment asset that currently mainly benefits wealthy institutional investors. I imagine, though, that a lot of people are going to see your team of young almost-all-white males and paint you as everything that&#x27;s wrong with tech, and you should consider to what degree that assumption represents the truth.
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syntaxingalmost 6 years ago
This is a super interesting idea, and I have been wondering if there was a service like this. Is there something similar to this that recommends the house based on your stage of life? For instance, if you have a kid and your income is X amount, this is probably your best area or even if I wanted to retire with a set standard of living and maybe environment. This paired with home value appreciation that you provide would be awesome!
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jpnalmost 6 years ago
Are you hedging with REIT options? Or home builders?<p>Are you able to hedge specific city risk?
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jedbergalmost 6 years ago
Pretty cool concept! You&#x27;re basically letting people buy into your real estate hedge fund. :)<p>Something I didn&#x27;t see addressed in the FAQ: Do I get to include closing costs and agent fees in my cost basis before determining your 20% cut?<p>If not I can see a case where appreciation was minimal and I actually lose money one you get your cut because those fees eat up all the appreciation.
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rajacombinatoralmost 6 years ago
It’s an odd business model. I think if you had any faith in your predictive ability you would just raise and run the fund yourself so as not to leave money on the table. This sounds like all the “crypto trading as a service” scams that have come up over the past few years. YC should avoid getting involved in trading businesses they don’t understand. Just my 2c.
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deepnotderpalmost 6 years ago
Have you considered measuring RF activity in areas to approximate the number of people? I&#x27;d also imagine that a higher ratio of telecom bands as compared to wifi bands would indicate more bias visitors and therefore potentially more future growth.
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Fluent_Startupalmost 6 years ago
Very cool. I just forwarded to a friend looking to buy. As a real estate investor, I can see why this would benefit a lot of people. I personally buy from a handful of turnkey operators (Midsouth Homebuyers has a 3 month vacancy guarantee), but may consider this in the future.
alephnanalmost 6 years ago
&gt; Before starting this company, my co-founder and I had tried to invest in homes.<p>Were you guys successful?
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rog211almost 6 years ago
Do you use all public data like census, BLS etc. or do you have paid data as well?
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mayankalmost 6 years ago
Are there any case studies you&#x27;d like to share, either here or on your site, or any other validation of your methodology? At the moment, it looks a bit like a &quot;hot stock picks&quot; newsletter.
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RosanaAnaDanaalmost 6 years ago
Hey, this seems pretty cool. What are your thoughts on landscaping&#x2F; outdoor water use?<p>If that seems interesting to you and your team, you should hit me up.
meerabalmost 6 years ago
What is role of Real estate agent in your business model? Why would a buyer be willing to shell another 3% for a Buyers Agent?
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