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Hard Core: What Porn's Ubiquity Says About Men and Women

242 pointsby wallacrwover 14 years ago

28 comments

axiomover 14 years ago
"While sexual aggression and the desire to debase women may not be what arouse all men, they are certainly an animating force of male sexuality. They may be unattractive and even, if taken to extremes, dangerous, but they’re not, perhaps alas, deviant."<p>That's a pretty ugly thing to say and requires a bit more evidence than just the pervasiveness of online hard-code porn.<p>Inexplicably the author seems unaware of the contradiction in her article in pointing out (correctly) that the various porn sites online are dominated by mundane amateur content (housewives, random teenagers etc.) while claiming that online porn demonstrates how the male psyche is fueled by the need to hurt and humiliate women sexually (for example the double anal porn she cites about 15 times.)
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cosgrovebover 14 years ago
The article talks a lot about how male sexuality has a darker side and violence and coercion come in to play and perhaps is exemplified by porn. One of the examples she uses is the scene from Last Tango in Paris where Marlon Brando forces Maria Schneider's character to have anal sex... It gets a little meta when you look up that film on Wikipedia:<p>"I should have called my agent or had my lawyer come to the set because you can't force someone to do something that isn't in the script, but at the time, I didn't know that. Marlon said to me: 'Maria, don't worry, it's just a movie,' but during the scene, even though what Marlon was doing wasn't real, I was crying real tears. I felt humiliated and to be honest, I felt a little raped, both by Marlon and by Bertolucci. After the scene, Marlon didn't console me or apologise. Thankfully, there was just one take."
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Mzover 14 years ago
TL; DR: Woman with baggage projects her negative experiences onto the entire world. (XXX) Film at 11.<p>My reason for saying this:<p><i>Armed with a “Take Back the Night” pamphlet, we were led to believe that, as long as we avoided the hordes of date rapists, sex was an egalitarian endeavor.<p>&#60;SNIP&#62;<p>This is an intellectual swindle that leads women to misjudge male sexuality, which they do at their own emotional and physical peril.<p>&#60;SNIP&#62;<p>At the heart of human sexuality, at least human sexuality involving men, lies what Freud identified in Totem and Taboo as “emotional ambivalence”—the simultaneous love and hate of the object of one’s sexual affection. From that ambivalence springs the aggressive, hostile, and humiliating components of male sexual arousal.<p>Never was this made plainer to me than during a one-night stand<p>&#60;SNIP&#62;<p>in a moment of exasperation, he asked if we could have anal sex. I asked why, seeing as how any straight man who has had experience with anal sex knows that it’s a big production and usually has a lot of false starts and abrupt stops. He answered, almost without thought, “Because that’s the only thing that will make you uncomfortable.” This was, perhaps, the greatest moment of sexual honesty I’ve ever experienced—and without hesitation, I complied. This encounter proves an unpleasant fact that does not fit the feminist script on sexuality: pleasure and displeasure wrap around each other like two snakes.</i><p>(Before I am accused of misogyny, please note I am female.)
ryanpersover 14 years ago
As a male who was raised by a feminist and in an all-female household, including the pets, I have a lot of things to say about this matter.<p>First off I find that a lot of feminism in the 80s was implicitly anti-male. Take back the night is great for women, but what is the message you are sending to young boys who are often there? It's a subtle message and may not be a big influence on all males.<p>Or the anti-rape messages? The more extreme is the mis-attributed quote "all men are potential rapists". This is a horrible message to be sending to young men, not as bad as "women are things", but if our goal is to raise fully formed males, "you are a rapist" is not a good one to give.<p>Bringing it back to the subject at hand, this author reminds me a lot of the kinds of messages, rhetoric and material that was common in the mid to late 80s feminism. The material I grew up suffused in. I think it is very harmful for the normalization of male-female relations. Are there differences between male and female sexuality? Yes. Does this article overplay them? Yes absolutely.<p>As long as we have articles describing male sexuality as a negative force that must be controlled and tempered I don't think the goal of a better society will be reached. The implicit message of "female sexuality is normal and healthy" and "male sexuality is dark and evil" is really disturbing to me.<p>In the end this article is completely and utterly sexist. If we reversed the genders we'd just have tripe from the 1800s about how female sexuality needs to be controlled and how women are evil. If that isn't acceptable, then why is this?
praptakover 14 years ago
<i>"One of the most punishing realities women face when they reach sexual maturity is that their maturity is (at least to many men) unsexy. Indeed, we now have an entire genre of online smut politely called “Lolita Porn.” This is not actual child pornography, a genre still blessedly beyond the reach of the casual Web browser."</i><p>Ok, but for <i>any</i> X, X is (at least to many men) unsexy, as there's a lot of porn based on the opposite of X. Young age and beauty included, as evidenced by "mature" and "ugly" porn categories.<p>So the above statement does not really add much information, except maybe some indication of the author's bias. Picking this particular fetish of <i>some</i> men, associates the whole group with socially unacceptable behaviour. Moral panic, anyone?
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Qzover 14 years ago
Sometimes I fantasize about strangling my boss. Do I want to <i>actually</i> strangle my boss? No. Not because I'm worried about the repercussions, but because there is a fundamental difference in the way we process fantasy and reality. In almost all cases, porn is about fantasy and should not be considered indicative of what men <i>actually</i> want.<p>(disclaimer: I don't actually have a boss)
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ErrantXover 14 years ago
Oh god, not this old chestnut again (admittedly wrapped in some stylish writing).<p>The horrid fallacy is that pornography doesn't really tell you all that much about male sexuality and how they act in the real world.<p>Take another example; how people act in anonymous online forums. Often pretty douchy right? Does that tell us anything dark about how they are in the real world; well, probably a little, I could guess that a really awkward guy on a forum is likely a bit awkward in the real world.<p>But not as bad as he is when arguing random nonsense over the latest and best video game.<p>The internet emphasises those darker aspects of our personality; do men watch porn that humiliates women - sure. Do they want to humiliate their lovers in real life? Probably not.<p>It gets even worse because the assumption is that the style of porn created and posted on the internet is representative of the desires of most men.<p>Of course, it isn't really. It represents the desires of a subset of men - for whom internet porn is often their sex life. Other men may use the content, but is it about convenience and fantasy, not a critique of their bedroom desires.<p>Look at it another way; lots of people adore fantasy films - say Lord of the Rings. Would you actually, in reality, want to live a fantasy epic? Probably not, the reality wouldn't be all that fulfilling (no internet for one thing! :)). Same applies to porn, I think.<p>And what of female sexuality? When I'm poking about in peoples computers (legally, for work) women's computers don't usually contain porn. They contain idealised erotic stories about alpha males who also have a soft sensitive side. Their internet history is usually crammed with hunks with their tops off. It's still "pornography" (in how it is used); it's just that some people prefer the sexuality of the unknown (i.e. clothed). There are dark fantasy aspects to female pornography too; the male is often a love slave, dominated by his desire for the woman.<p>Bottom line is: <i>Sexuality is not simple</i>. And the internet is not a good way to make broad judgements about male or female sexuality.
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donaldcover 14 years ago
From the article: <i>The granting of sex is the most powerful weapon women possess in their struggle with men.</i><p>I'm pretty sure I don't want to be having sex with any woman who views "granting" me sex as a weapon in her struggle with me. That's just wrong on a number of different levels.
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nkurzover 14 years ago
This is a really good article, and just the fact that it's published in a mainstream publication like The Atlantic shows how much internet pornography has changed American sexual mores in the last few years. And I think the author makes a good case that it indeed is technology that has changed the thinking:<p>"When a 13-year-old girl can sit in math class, hide her Hello Kitty smart phone behind her textbook, and pull up such an extreme video in less time than it would take her to text a vote for her favorite American Idol contestant, we’ve certainly reached some kind of new societal landmark."<p>The writing is solid and bold. I'm impressed. Author's website is here: <a href="http://www.natashavc.com/?page_id=62" rel="nofollow">http://www.natashavc.com/?page_id=62</a>
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MBlumeover 14 years ago
Ugh. Slightly interesting for the first third, then a random swerve into misandrist bullshit.
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sevover 14 years ago
&#62; He answered, almost without thought, “Because that’s the only thing that will make you uncomfortable.<p>I think this article is well written, albeit a little extreme with some of it's points. The behavior of the man the author had anal sex with is obviously not the norm, and yet she uses the event as a way to describe the norm.
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kibaover 14 years ago
I believe she suffer from the typical mind fallacy, thinking all males have overly aggressive/violent sexual desire.<p>Note: I am a male.
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Eliezerover 14 years ago
Thinking that the flood of badly made, poorly scripted porn on the Internet reveals the secret darkness of male sexuality, is like thinking that an endless succession of awful movies from Hollywood reveals that people secretly want a poorly scripted sequel to the last blockbuster. What it reveals is that making good movies is <i>difficult</i>. It's like thinking that a flood of nitwit Web startups reveals that the economy really wants nitwit Web startups. If you're a venture capitalist, you may want better, but you'll have trouble finding it. Likewise if you're a movie viewer. And likewise if you're a man.<p>If you look at what the Internet has done to written pornography, you see exactly the reverse effect as what the article describes. I once picked up a book of published erotica that <i>wasn't</i> online, and holy crap was the quality vastly worse than what I now expect. Tawdry, pointless, plotless, emotionless, needlessly violent encounters - because, I presume, that is what the <i>publishers</i> think men want, because the <i>publishers</i> conceive of pornography as a sordid dirty thing and imagine themselves as exploiting it. But if you look at what men write, and what men want, when they are free to produce their own written erotica, then you find that the rise of the Internet has created, from scratch, the genre which I think is now known as the "erotic romance novel" and means, roughly, "well-written sex stories with plots and emotions in them". Publishers of erotica are only now just <i>beginning</i> to think about trying to sell books like that, after the Internet <i>showed</i> them there was a huge pent-up demand.<p>"Seduction is always more singular and sublime than sex and it commands the higher price," said Jean Baudrillard. In the days when written erotica was produced by publishers who looked down on it, no publisher knew how to write seduction. And today, when visual erotica is still seen as a tawdry and exploitive affair by the people who <i>produce</i> it, who still see themselves as pandering to the <i>base</i> desires of men, who still see plot as the domain only of real movies, there is no seduction in that visual erotica. You cannot find it, no matter how hard you look online. There are big-budget porn productions but not productions that spend more than five dollars on the script.<p>But in the domain of written erotica where getting started is as simple as owning a keyboard, and people don't bother writing if they're not having fun writing, and <i>the producer is a lot like the consumer</i> - people who like erotic literature - there you find plot. You find seduction. You find the "erotic romance novel".<p>That's not what all men want, I suppose; not what all men want all of the time. But it's what I demand as a matter of routine in my written erotica, and what I can't find in online movies (even if it's advertised as big-budget or woman-made, it just doesn't seem to exist).<p>And before anyone writes the obvious dumb reply, yes I have a girlfriend and no I do not apologize for consuming the form of art known as erotica anymore than I apologize for writing Harry Potter fanfiction.
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Herringover 14 years ago
&#62;<i>the Internet porn aesthetic verges on unvarnished realism.</i><p>I'm thinking she doesn't know much about Internet porn.
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macraelover 14 years ago
The most interesting writing I've seen on this subject came from McSweeneys: "The Conflicted Existence of a Female Porn Writer". You can find her first column here: <a href="http://www.mcsweeneys.net/links/pornwriter/column1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.mcsweeneys.net/links/pornwriter/column1.html</a>
Tychoover 14 years ago
Some people look at sex-drive as something like a God-given gift, whereas others see it as basically a (fun) evolutionary side-effect. Varying degrees of sanctimony ensue.
sdenheyerover 14 years ago
Noticing all the hidden assumptions - if a woman does amateur porn and puts it up on xtube, she's trying to please her husband - can't be that <i>she's</i> turned on by it.<p>Somehow, even cuckoldry fantasies are about the <i>male</i> being dominant.<p>Paul in Last Tango is a brute, but no mention of Jeanne being a status-climbing bitch for abandoning him when she finds out he's poor - she may have pointed it out obliquely, but all judgment-loaded language is pointed firmly toward the y-chromosoned.
SkyMarshalover 14 years ago
Does anyone else just not grok the idea that sex is about all these terribly negative things? I have never in my life desired to degrade or debase women through sex or any other means.<p>I know it's hard for women these days, and there are probably more screwed up guys out there than normal ones, but I feel like the latter are getting tarred with the same brush as the former.<p>I can't think of any guy in my immediate social circle that's not a true gentleman inside and out, not even a suppressed, closeted woman-hater.<p>Reading feminist articles like this usually makes me go WTF. On the hand I'm very sympathetic to the fact that it's not easy being a woman, but on the other I can't help but suspect the author has been a victim of bad luck with men and is projecting on the entire sex.
WalterSearover 14 years ago
That woman is ignorant to everything that I have observed my male sexuality to be.
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PostOnceover 14 years ago
Girls watch porn too. That fact apparently eludes the author.
marcusboosterover 14 years ago
I agree with the author's characterization of rhetoric in the 1990's, though I wonder if the reexamining of the whole "communicating boundaries" thing is a result of these women now raising boys of their own, or a more general societal trend that emphasizes aggression.
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johngaltover 14 years ago
I wouldn't describe this article as misandrist. In many cases the author hints at female desires being worse.<p>"...the sex that occurs in between relationships or overlaps with relationships where the buffers of intimacy or familiarity do not exist: the raw, unpracticed sort. If a woman thinks of the best sex she’s had in her life, she’s often thinking of this kind of sex, and while it may be the best sex in her life, it’s not the sex she wants to have throughout her life or more accurately, it’s not the sex she’d have with the man with whom she’d like to spend her life."<p>So debasing sex is great so long as it's not with someone you care about? Sounds like men and women aren't that different.
lizzardover 14 years ago
Literary and artistic fashions are quite different across cultures and across time. They're a poor data source to come up with an essentialist view of gender, if you pick one time and place. If you look at how, say, romanticism was gendered at first, it was described as essentially masculine -- tempestuous and powerful. Over time that perception changed and the very same material was described as something essentially womanly that reflected how women "are". While I have plenty of other criticisms of this article, this is the most basic one that I don't think has been expressed here yet.
RyanMcGrealover 14 years ago
&#62; at the heart of human sexuality, at least human sexuality involving men, lies what Freud<p>And I'm done with this steaming pile of misanthropy. An essay on sexuality that falls back on Freudian ideas is beyond redemption.
anamaxover 14 years ago
I wonder if Mz. Vargas-Cooper is related to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Vargas" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Vargas</a> .
nlavezzoover 14 years ago
Why exactly is this on Hacker News?
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gribbleover 14 years ago
Banning links to The Atlantic would greatly improve the quality of the site.
metalover 14 years ago
I'm not sure what the author is trying to say. Just because porn is easier to get now than before (as has been since day 0 of porn), so what? Yet another jee-whiz look at what the internets have done to us article.
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