TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

The Internet Relies on People Working for Free

569 pointsby giladover 5 years ago

51 comments

joshlemerover 5 years ago
Some other commenters in this thread have pointed out that nobody is forcing open source developers to work on the contributions that they make, and that is strictly speaking true. But in the culture of software development, there does seem to be an ambient message often repeated or hinted at, that it is good to &quot;give back&quot; to open source by contributing and that it is virtuous to do so.<p>I now am starting to rethink this sentiment because the vast majority of the benefit of open source contributions on github, be they to languages, runtimes, application frameworks, databases, etc, go towards increasing the bottom line of for-profit companies, not to developers. And the vast majority of the beneficiaries of open source will never support the project even when they are fortune 50 companies saving millions of dollars by using the work of one volunteer.<p>There is also the idea that contributing will be great for your career development. I have found that not to be the case at all, I think that no potential or current employer has ever given a rat&#x27;s ass about open source contributions, and do not consider that work as valuable when making hiring decisions. The work you are paid to do is the only thing anyone cares about. I&#x27;m not saying that that shouldn&#x27;t be the case, but just that that is the case.<p>Given then, that there&#x27;s very little upside to doing open source, and most&#x2F;all the benefits go to profit-making corporations, it is puzzling why do we even push for greater involvement in open source at all? It seems we shouldn&#x27;t be, we should be warning people who want to contribute to Open Source that they should probably spend their time doing their own studying and personal&#x2F;skill development which will allow them to succeed in the roles that they have with their current role or a role they&#x27;d like to obtain one day, for money.
评论 #20998863 未加载
评论 #20997750 未加载
评论 #20997756 未加载
评论 #20998620 未加载
评论 #21000620 未加载
评论 #21002513 未加载
评论 #20997947 未加载
评论 #20999588 未加载
评论 #20997550 未加载
评论 #20999352 未加载
评论 #20999220 未加载
评论 #21002379 未加载
评论 #21000588 未加载
评论 #21002601 未加载
评论 #21000205 未加载
评论 #20999542 未加载
评论 #20997969 未加载
评论 #20998345 未加载
评论 #21001834 未加载
评论 #20997706 未加载
评论 #20998013 未加载
评论 #20999479 未加载
评论 #20997829 未加载
评论 #20999013 未加载
评论 #20999185 未加载
评论 #20997688 未加载
评论 #20999189 未加载
评论 #21000642 未加载
评论 #20999177 未加载
评论 #21003271 未加载
评论 #21000742 未加载
评论 #20998199 未加载
评论 #20999253 未加载
评论 #21002790 未加载
评论 #20999671 未加载
评论 #20999141 未加载
评论 #21001954 未加载
评论 #21002287 未加载
评论 #21005033 未加载
评论 #21001098 未加载
评论 #21002317 未加载
评论 #20998483 未加载
评论 #20999628 未加载
评论 #20998330 未加载
评论 #20997538 未加载
wvenableover 5 years ago
I feel like there is an article a week about how open source developers are being used by corporations for free labor. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding that these journalists aren&#x27;t grasping.<p>Nobody is doing anything they don&#x27;t want to do. Nobody is forced to build open source software. And, most importantly, most of these contributions aren&#x27;t worth enough individually to charge for. It&#x27;s only collectively that these contributions have value and we all collectively benefit from it. And for-profit companies are part of that collective benefit but that doesn&#x27;t mean money needs to be involved.<p>I&#x27;m working on an open source project right now -- I&#x27;ve put a lot of hours into it -- and it&#x27;s cool but there is no way to build a profitable business from it. It&#x27;s an end-user product, the small number of users will like it, and I just enjoyed building it. But I also don&#x27;t <i>want</i> to make it business. I already have a job.
评论 #20997314 未加载
评论 #20996963 未加载
评论 #20997459 未加载
评论 #20997076 未加载
评论 #20997573 未加载
评论 #20999095 未加载
评论 #20997106 未加载
评论 #20999824 未加载
评论 #20999323 未加载
评论 #20997534 未加载
评论 #21008759 未加载
评论 #20997582 未加载
评论 #20997215 未加载
TurboHaskalover 5 years ago
I always liked this post by Erik Naggum:<p><pre><code> The whole idea that anything can be so &quot;shared&quot; as to have no value in itself is not a problem if the rest of the world ensures that nobody _is_ starving or needing money. For young people who have parents who pay for them or student grants or loans and basically have yet to figure out that it costs a hell of a lot of money to live in a highly advanced society, this is not such a bad idea. Grow up, graduate, marry, start a family, buy a house, have an accident, get seriously ill for a while, or a number of other very expensive things people actually do all the time, and the value of your work starts to get very real and concrete to you, at which point giving away things to be &quot;nice&quot; to some &quot;community&quot; which turns out not to be &quot;nice&quot; _enough_ in return that you will actually stay alive, is no longer an option. </code></pre> (continues) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.xach.com&#x2F;naggum&#x2F;articles&#x2F;3217750625724755@naggum.net.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.xach.com&#x2F;naggum&#x2F;articles&#x2F;3217750625724755@naggum...</a>
评论 #21000107 未加载
评论 #20998121 未加载
评论 #20997401 未加载
评论 #20997821 未加载
评论 #20997810 未加载
评论 #20998188 未加载
ViViDboarderover 5 years ago
“The catastrophic Heartbleed bug of 2014, which compromised the security of hundreds of millions of sites, was caused by a problem in an open-source library called OpenSSL, which relied on a single full-time developer not making a mistake as they updated and changed that code, used by millions.”<p>And the catastrophic Specter and Meltdown bugs show that private code doesn’t prevent this sort of thing either...
评论 #20998656 未加载
评论 #20997196 未加载
评论 #20999337 未加载
评论 #20996998 未加载
user_50123890over 5 years ago
Not just open-source maintainers but also moderators.<p>A bad thing about moderators is that nowadays they tend to be immature teens, it&#x27;s one of the reasons Reddit content quality has been going down in the past few years.<p>It also creates some moral questions, as companies with giant revenues are outsourcing their internet janitor duties to naive unpaid child labourers
评论 #20996714 未加载
评论 #20998417 未加载
评论 #20996997 未加载
评论 #20997354 未加载
评论 #20997614 未加载
评论 #20996717 未加载
评论 #20996921 未加载
评论 #20996854 未加载
djsumdogover 5 years ago
There aren&#x27;t a lot of totally free, open-source, end user products. In the 90s FOSS devs though one day GiMP would surpass Photoshop, we&#x27;d see Linux on at least 8% ~ 10% of laptops at coffee shops, Inkscape would be better than Illustrator, etc.<p>Today, a lot of FOSS is corporate sponsored. But it&#x27;s not end-product. It&#x27;s all middleware. Hophop&#x2F;Hack, Lightbend libraries like Slick, React, etc. It&#x27;s all to help you build things to interact with the big commercial players.<p>Yes there is still a lot of FOSS that&#x27;s small, 1 ~ 5 people maintainers that&#x27;s volunteer. But there is a considerable about that&#x27;s corporate backed. We&#x27;re a far cry from the FOSS hope of the 90s. I wrote about this a few years back:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;penguindreams.org&#x2F;blog&#x2F;the-philosophy-of-open-source-in-community-and-enterprise-software&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;penguindreams.org&#x2F;blog&#x2F;the-philosophy-of-open-source...</a>
评论 #20998609 未加载
评论 #20997439 未加载
评论 #21001454 未加载
评论 #20997479 未加载
评论 #21001820 未加载
orishoover 5 years ago
Is that really so widespread though? All of my open source contributions were done on the job, fixing a bug or adding a feature to an open source project I use at work. There is a strong incentive to improve the project rather than fork it to fix, as you don&#x27;t have to keep maintaining it yourself. It also appears that many maintainers are doing so as part of their duties at work.<p>Just as Google maintains their search engine for &quot;free&quot; to show you ads, they maintain Kubernetes so that you use it on their cloud platform. You fix bugs in Kubernetes so you can have the fix you need, at work, when you need it.
muglugover 5 years ago
The overarching problem with expecting companies to pay for open-source is that they don’t have to.<p>It’s often as vital to them as the publicly-provided infrastructure used by their employees to get to work, but because they never see the costs, they assume there isn’t any.<p>In an ideal world business-critical FOSS projects would be funded by the government the same way that other public infrastructure is.<p>Until that happens I think lone developers of those popular projects should start to adopt licenses that allow them to charge businesses. It’s the only way to avoid creating martyrs of them.
评论 #20996722 未加载
评论 #20996946 未加载
评论 #20999317 未加载
verisimilitudesover 5 years ago
It&#x27;s very telling that the word <i>copyleft</i> hasn&#x27;t appeared in this thread nor in the submitted article.<p>I use the AGPLv3 for most of my software and it&#x27;s a feature that large corporations horrified of contributing back fear it. I&#x27;m not exploited, because I use a license that doesn&#x27;t allow me to be exploited.<p>No one using a permissive license, which are pushed primarily by corporations that slander the GPL I think, has any right to complain about being exploited, in my opinion. Copyleft is good and copyleft software still gets paid support and other things; as many companies have found, it&#x27;s also a good means to release Free Software that people will still pay for, in the form of license exceptions, even.
Y_Yover 5 years ago
A rational actor never works for &quot;free&quot;, they derive some perceived benefit (not necessarily money) from their action, like reputation or self-satisfaction or warm fuzzies. I think it&#x27;s brilliant that we can use these carrots to get good work out of people that can be shared on the internet.<p>All the same that&#x27;s no excuse to abuse people who are acting far from rationally.
评论 #20996793 未加载
评论 #20996888 未加载
评论 #20997253 未加载
评论 #20996748 未加载
评论 #20996718 未加载
评论 #20999411 未加载
评论 #20996968 未加载
评论 #20996958 未加载
评论 #20996879 未加载
评论 #20996942 未加载
viburnumover 5 years ago
It&#x27;s completely normal and human to want to be productive and contribute. About half of the work that gets done is paid work. The rest, parenting, diy, housework, cooking, volunteering, creative work, is not. This work is done out of a spirit of generosity and&#x2F;or reciprocity. To exploit that work without reciprocity undermines society. To be generous to billionaires is insanity. Markets are great and all (competition can be fun, after all) but they aren&#x27;t in accord with every aspect of human nature. Life is better for people when they feel like they express their creative and generous aspect without being a sucker.
carapaceover 5 years ago
I&#x27;m a Bucky Fuller fanboy. He calculated that we would have enough technology to make our current economic system obsolete by sometime in the 1970&#x27;s. That has already happened, but we have, in general, failed to notice.<p>The advancement of automation should lead to a post-historical quasi-utopia, and our biggest problem will be sorting out our personal baggage. (Like Star Trek but without FTL and teleporters.)<p>From my POV, charging money for <i>copies</i> of software is regressive and foolish.
评论 #20999589 未加载
saagarjhaover 5 years ago
&gt; Because the code is available to use for free, without any commercial licensing, there’s no reason that companies need to tell him that they’re using it.<p>Well, that depends on the license.
评论 #20996741 未加载
CodexArcanumover 5 years ago
If only there was some way for people to live decently while working on anything they wanted to. Like, if there was some <i>Universal</i> way they could meet their <i>Basic</i> needs without having to devote all their energy towards extracting an <i>Income</i> out of for-profit companies or contract-for-hire schemes. Wow, then maybe there would be millions of people interested in computers who could work on all kinds of projects!
jjohanssonover 5 years ago
Perhaps most egregious are companies who profiteer from open source, without contributing back. Amazon comes to mind.
评论 #20997310 未加载
评论 #20998631 未加载
评论 #20998925 未加载
评论 #20997053 未加载
Sargosover 5 years ago
I think the open source space will benefit tremendously from DAOs (Decentralized Autonomous Organizations) that direct funding for projects or new ideas of note.<p>The most famous example is Moloch DAO which funds things ranging from entire software teams building Ethereum clients to individual positions like a test plan runner for coordination across multiple organizations. These are the types of things that are traditionally hard or impossible to get funding for as the smallest unit of funding typically falls to VCs who fund an entire company for many years.<p>Anyone can submit a funding proposal which is akin to a business plan that doesn&#x27;t aim to make money and it is voted on by members of the DAO. A lot of interesting ideas are debated and refined with the best ideas making it to the front and being funded by democratic vote.<p>We are still within the first few years of the existence of DAOS and there are already a dozen DAOs focused on funding various aspects of tech and design with likely many more coming in the future. Open source has always had a hard time competing with corporations but with DAOs like Moloch and others the future is starting to look bright.
jimhefferonover 5 years ago
Lots of interesting comments here. I have not seen anyone mention a model that means something to me.<p>I am an academic. Simplistically stated, students come to study with folks who have an academic reputation (yes, I know it is much more complicated than that). A person could imagine that one place to get an academic reputation is through the development of great Free software, or other Free works such as texts.
kenover 5 years ago
Isn’t that true of most industries?<p>The shirt on your back cost only $10 because it was made by a kid in Bangladesh for pennies. The tunnel under the city cost millions more than planned, and somebody will have to eat that cost. Your theatre program has a page of 6-digit donors because ticket prices don’t cover half the cost of producing a show.<p>Nobody likes to admit the true cost of anything.
评论 #20999507 未加载
marknadalover 5 years ago
If you don&#x27;t want companies using your tech, just use (A)GPL or anything from Richard Stallman.<p>But there are some of us who <i>believe</i> in Open Source[1] and giving value to the world, including companies. So please stop bullying us into being a victim culture, we&#x27;re not.<p>Besides, scientific research over the decades has shown that Open Source produces valuable work specifically because it is unpaid creative work, and when pay is introduced, quality drops.<p>Here&#x27;s a good summary video of the studies: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;u6XAPnuFjJc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;u6XAPnuFjJc</a><p>[1] Disclosure: I work on Open Source full time now because 8M people use my tech ( <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;amark&#x2F;gun" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;amark&#x2F;gun</a> ), but I do not charge for it and previously had to do it in my spare time (it is only its success that has lead to me being able to work on it full time - not the other way around).
评论 #20999025 未加载
andymockliover 5 years ago
OSS is digital volunteerism. It seems a stretch to imply it&#x27;s exploitation.
chiefalchemistover 5 years ago
&gt; &quot;It’s still not clear that companies would be interested in such a contract. When Stenberg asked the company that needed him to fly to a different country to troubleshoot their problem to pay for one, they refused.&quot;<p>The irony is, in not paying directly for suppirt they are paying indirectly with risk. Risk to product. Risk to brand. And perhaps in sone cases risk to life.<p>It seems to me a new licence is in order. One that distinguishs from small fries and big fish. And big fish that refuse to be good citizens of a given (product) community should be outed and shamed for their lack of cooperation.<p>Extreme? Sure. But sometimes fairness and justice require such guidance.
评论 #20996905 未加载
xz0rover 5 years ago
We need to understand that open source contributors &quot;working for free&quot; is not in the context of market norms. There are experiments[0] indicating that people who work for free adhere to social norms and they do a far more fantastic job from what they would have when they get paid to do the same work.<p>I myself am an open source contributor working for free and I do it to the best of my abilities even though its &quot;free&quot;.<p>[0] Predictably Irrational - Chapter on The cost of Social Norms.
yellowarchangelover 5 years ago
FOSS has always been a give and take. You use FOSS every day in your daily life from software on your phone, your computer, maybe even your microwave is using FOSS!<p>No one has to do FOSS! It&#x27;s a give and take, you take, so there&#x27;s no harm in wanting to contribute back. It&#x27;s about freedom, passion, getting your work out there for the benefit of humanity. Can you be sponsored &#x2F; paid? Sure! Are you obligated to work for anyone or do what they want? No!<p>It&#x27;s is just impossible for big companies to pay every FOSS developer everywhere. When I install create-react-app, it downloads thousands upon thousands of libraries, from thousands of developers. Do each of them get a fraction of a cent from the profits of my company? No.<p>Does a developer at a job cloning a repo mean they have a moral obligation to pay the developer? No.<p>Right now, the top companies do primarily mobile &#x2F; web development, and use code probably written by thousands if not millions of developers. Splitting payment to all of them is impossible.<p>The big projects like Blender, Krita, GNU projects... are all sponsored, and receive donations. The devs work on them for the passion, recognition, and &quot;fun&quot;.<p>FOSS has always been a give and take. If money is a driving force for you, getting a traditional developer job (as they&#x27;re very in demand) is the best choice for that goal.
scarejunbaover 5 years ago
Honestly, with bountysource and all that, I&#x27;m not too upset with the state of things. The way I see it is that you&#x27;re just free agents acting in a universe with other agents. It is valuable to make open-source software because other agents will also share those with you. If someone wants a support contract or wants a one-off fix it&#x27;s going to cost some amount but I&#x27;m not going to sweat my balls over trying to make it for them without money.<p>I&#x27;m not going to hide any software I write from big companies. They can take if they so desire so long as they adhere by the licence. The magic of software is that this community has realized the incredible value humanity can realize by open collaboration, value we realize personally. So I don&#x27;t really care that the Internet relies on people working for free. It&#x27;s like the government kinda relies on my reporting a pothole to fix it. But I get a fixed pothole out of it, so we gucci. It doesn&#x27;t matter if someone gets more value out of it if I get sufficient value out of it. I&#x27;m all for chasing Pareto improvements to my life.<p>When I really really want something I take a risk to get it with money, like when I had to go fund a tiny piece of `neovim` in the beginning or when I fund a Kickstarter thing.
peterwwillisover 5 years ago
It&#x27;s not like we don&#x27;t like money. We just don&#x27;t want to be told how to write the software and what we can do with it. Nobody&#x27;s willing to pay us to do whatever we want. The only way for us to do whatever we want is to own the software, by making it independently, and releasing it as free&#x2F;open source software.<p>Every free software project you can think of was already created by a company as a proprietary product, but was not released as free software&#x2F;open source. We had to write them on our own time for no money, because companies have never wanted to pay to publish them [and also relinquish control of them].<p>I still work on projects all the time that would be fantastic to open source, but the company doesn&#x27;t want to spend the time or money to put it through lawyers, clean up the code, release it, and maintain it for the community. (they are invariably unwilling to release control of their own project to the community at large)<p>Occasionally a technology group will get buy-in from an SVP that this is a competitive advantage, and a project actually becomes open source, but there&#x27;s still tons of red tape, and it&#x27;s still owned by the company. You have to fork it to be able to do anything of your own with it, and then nobody will use your fork.
Havocover 5 years ago
What of it?<p>The linux literally exists because lots of people believe in something greater than &quot;I need to be paid per line of code&quot;.<p>If you want to reduce it to a simple transactional level like that then year...they are not getting paid.<p>Even the article&#x27;s example mentions a FOSS writer that got hired (and thus paid) literally because he is a famous FOSS writer...yet somehow he&#x27;s not getting paid?<p>Yes FOSS crew deserves more credit and perhaps money but the logic is all over the place there.
traversedaover 5 years ago
How about duel-licensing your work AGPL and commercial? You can give back to the open-source community, but profit-motivated entities can pay for a license.<p>There is one significant barrier stopping me from doing that on my own (meager) projects, and it&#x27;s that a scheme like that would require contributors to sign a CLA, a whole kettle of fish I&#x27;m not really prepared to deal with on my own.
cwyersover 5 years ago
I don&#x27;t really think it depends on people working for free. The salary of a single person working on curl could be absorbed by any of a dozen companies (or foundations, like the Linux Foundation or Apache) without blinking. And I don&#x27;t think there&#x27;s enough pieces of software like this to really change the math.<p>Yes, right now, there are places where work isn&#x27;t getting funded, but if that lack of funding ever actually causes critical work to go undone and then get noticed, the money comes out. OpenSSL and Heartbleed showed us that.<p>People have noticed that the ways that this money gets disbursed tends to concentrate power away from the community and towards commercial interests (which is where I think a lot of the systemd hate really comes from, the fact that Red Hat is making those decisions and not the community), but the money seems to be there for infrastructure projects in the long run.
RustyBucketover 5 years ago
In my opinion, free software stops being free when you need people behind it do something you need. Once &quot;as is&quot; is not enough for you, you either fork or fix it, or pay creates to help you. And it&#x27;s not that people want to make money of this, rather than cover their costs while solving your problem.
qudatover 5 years ago
&quot;[...] people working for free.&quot; OSS is &quot;free&quot; in the sense that anyone can consume the content. It&#x27;s not free labor though. Most of the time, the people building OSS are gaining clout and career progression as a result of their &quot;free work.&quot; Companies end up paying for it.
评论 #20996917 未加载
gueloover 5 years ago
This problem is solved by the GPL&#x2F;AGPL. Id corporations want the code then they need to contribute back, simple. But then the Silicon Valley startup culture started whining about not being able to use all that tasty free code and have produced a culture shift towards corporate friendly licenses.
bernierocksover 5 years ago
If you expect money or compensation for your hard work, charge money and have a commercial license. Plenty of open source developers do this and make a living.<p>It just seems disingenuous to me to give out your work for free, with little to no strings attached, and then expect companies to either give back or pay you money.<p>This isn&#x27;t really what the open source movement is all about. I&#x27;ve contributed to and release many libraries as open source. There are many companies using it, for free, and not giving me anything in return. I really don&#x27;t care, because I just wanted to release something that anybody could use.<p>I feel like the movement is starting to turn from giving code away for free to all..to giving code away to only be used in the way I see fit.
elihuover 5 years ago
I think the article is based on a misconception. Just because software (including source code) can be obtained by anyone at no cost does not mean the developer was not paid to create it.<p>The important question here is &quot;why was this software written in the first place?&quot; If you think that the purpose of software is to make money through licensing fees, open source doesn&#x27;t make any sense at all. However, if you take a contrary view that the primary purpose of software is to solve problems (with revenue generation as an optional secondary goal), then it does make sense that a developer could get paid quite well to create something they give away for free.
Pmopover 5 years ago
An interesting note that I often like to bring is that one might not catch the entire idea of &quot;There&#x27;s no free lunch&quot;.<p>Follow with me. People need to eat in order to stay alive; therefore people will often spend a part of their precious time working on acquiring food.<p>So, there&#x27;s no such a thing as &quot;people working for free&quot;. What is effectively happening is that the costs are being outsourced, either to who&#x27;s working or to someone else who buys the worker his lunch.
ineedasernameover 5 years ago
Well, it&#x27;s not quite free, it has benefits like reputation that in theory could lead to better employment opportunities, though I&#x27;m not sure how well that holds up in practice. It would be interesting to do a study on it. Of course the results could show a negative as well: those dedicated to open source projects focus less of their time and energy on their career responsibilities.
alexellisukover 5 years ago
I wrote a post on The Five Pressures of Leadership in Open Source and can relate to what the author is talking about having done this for several years and now without any pay. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.alexellis.io&#x2F;the-5-pressures-of-leadership&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.alexellis.io&#x2F;the-5-pressures-of-leadership&#x2F;</a>
tracker1over 5 years ago
I&#x27;d suggest that most people writing open-source code are doing it while working for a company and it&#x27;s part of their regular work days. There are also a lot of projects that should be better supported and funded. It&#x27;s a mix of both.
polynomialover 5 years ago
It&#x27;s not just that it relies on some people working for free. It&#x27;s that others have figured out how to profit from this free donated labour.*<p>(*No judgements necessarily implied here, merely an observation.)
carry_bitover 5 years ago
esr&#x27;s solution to this problem is <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.com&#x2F;esr&#x2F;loadsharers" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.com&#x2F;esr&#x2F;loadsharers</a>
3xblahover 5 years ago
Contrast this with: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20987628" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20987628</a>
gerbillyover 5 years ago
It&#x27;s not just through open source contributions that internet users work for free, either.<p>One example is google translate, which encourages you to correct the suggested translation.
erik_seabergover 5 years ago
See also <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20194376" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20194376</a>.
buboardover 5 years ago
It s the equivalent or researchers doing free peer review for elsevier. Nobody’s forcing them, but they kinda have to.
YesThatTom2over 5 years ago
What? People don’t know this??<p>(Just kidding. We take this kind of thing for granted. In reality it should keep us up at night!)
ameliusover 5 years ago
Compared to Jeff Bezos, everybody else on the internet is working practically for free ...
earthboundkidover 5 years ago
There should be an NEA for OSS.
carapaceover 5 years ago
Know your stack. Intimately.<p>There&#x27;s a very interesting book called &quot;Hollywood Secrets of Project Management Success&quot;†. Actually, IMO only about half of it is interesting, the parts about how Hollywood makes movies is fascinating, the rest of the book seems to me to be a mildly enterprisey pitch for Agile Methods, (of which YMMV.)<p>THe fascinating thing about Hollywood is that it&#x27;s old (over a century) and they have developed a system that works: it&#x27;s <i>rare</i> for a film to go over-budget or over-schedule.<p>I can&#x27;t do a proper summary here, but the fundamental gist is that they have detailed plans, that experience says are realistic, and they track those plans closely and deal with divergence systematically.<p>†<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.oreilly.com&#x2F;library&#x2F;view&#x2F;hollywood-secrets-of&#x2F;9780735625693&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.oreilly.com&#x2F;library&#x2F;view&#x2F;hollywood-secrets-of&#x2F;97...</a><p>Anyway, one of the tools they use, if transposed to the IT industry, would be something like an Inventory of Dependencies. It would list every piece of software that your system depends on along with costs, risk assessments, and alternate dependencies for each. I don&#x27;t have the book with me or I&#x27;d give more details.<p>My point is, we should do this and usually don&#x27;t. It&#x27;s kind of on the company management if you&#x27;re using, e.g. cURL, and your stack blows up and only then do you discover there&#x27;s not a great &quot;support story&quot; there, eh?<p>Taking infrastructure for granted is not how you get reliability. FWIW.<p>- - - -<p>BTW, readline and bash are maintained by one volunteer.<p>&gt; GNU Readline is today maintained by Chet Ramey, a Senior Technology Architect at Case Western Reserve University. Ramey also maintains the Bash shell. Both projects were first authored by a Free Software Foundation employee named Brian Fox beginning in 1988. But Ramey has been the sole maintainer since around 1994.<p>&gt; Ramey has now worked on Bash and Readline for well over a decade. He has never once been compensated for his work—he is and has always been a volunteer.<p>&gt; I asked Ramey what it was like being the sole maintainer of software that so many people use. He said that millions of people probably use Bash without realizing it (because every Apple device runs Bash), which makes him worry about how much disruption a breaking change might cause. But he’s slowly gotten used to the idea of all those people out there. He said that he continues to work on Bash and Readline because at this point he is deeply invested and because he simply likes to make useful software available to the world.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twobithistory.org&#x2F;2019&#x2F;08&#x2F;22&#x2F;readline.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twobithistory.org&#x2F;2019&#x2F;08&#x2F;22&#x2F;readline.html</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20772053" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20772053</a>
benj111over 5 years ago
Isn&#x27;t this one of Microsoft&#x27;s arguments in its FUD phase? Open source being less secure.
评论 #20997060 未加载
ddingusover 5 years ago
Of course it does.<p>There is a thing about open source and I would submit, many uses of the Internet, that ESR (and others) talked about early on, and that&#x27;s use value.<p>Because the entire work product is available to anyone, the use value is high. There is a skill &#x2F; understanding investment to make, and while that is expected, it can get ignored, or overemphasized in these discussions.<p>Once someone has made the skill investment, they need only entertain incremental change type investments.<p>Overall, great return on investment. Anyone learning *nix systems can get a ton of work done, and or have set themselves up to explore and benefit from a large number of technologies.<p>The point ESR made is simple:<p>Nobody is really working for free. They are getting the use value, and it&#x27;s non-trivial. In the case of some important developers, use value is not enough. Can&#x27;t eat it, or live in it. Fair enough.<p>In this way, OSS is a whole that really is greater than it&#x27;s parts, and high use value is why.<p>Contributions, and their cost, are multiplied across users and that is often enough to warrant making said contributions. Anyone doing that can improve their use value, and anyone may see the benefit of other contributions.<p>None of that has really changed, but for large corporations deriving significant financial returns, all of which further demonstrate the huge use value in play.<p>I submit this high degree of use also comes with more demands for contributions than an average user &#x2F; developer too. Funding this should be a no brainer given the extremely low costs needed to see awesome use value and potential to profit.<p>Seriously, the larger players are making plenty. It&#x27;s my opinion more financial contributions can and should be made, and made in a way that leaves plenty of agency for those who receive them too.<p>Without that, it could be a sort of tragedy of the commons scenario. OSS is awesome, but could be a lot less awesome if this is not improved.<p>Surely an ecosystem like this can be maintained from the billions that it has helped others earn. We say greed is good. Well, so is a degree of fairness, and some respect for that which has delivered so much too.<p>If not, the question, &quot;why should I bother?&quot; is totally fair, and will present itself more and more over time.<p>And this:<p>&gt;It’s still not clear that companies would be interested in such a contract. When Stenberg asked the company that needed him to fly to a different country to troubleshoot their problem to pay for one, they refused.<p>They totally got their use value. If they can&#x27;t be bothered to help with the code, paying for said help is totally reasonable.<p>What drives that?<p>Perhaps some important people can start posing the question:<p>Either help with code, or dollars, which is it because everyone needs to help?
alephnanover 5 years ago
As Elon Musk described in the Joe Rogan interview: cybernetic collectives
评论 #20999712 未加载
lysiumover 5 years ago
It’s a well written article. I did not get the point where the internet relies on people working for free. Yes, free software such as curl is in use, but where does the internet rely on it? If there were no curl, there would be something else, wouldn’t it?
评论 #20996786 未加载
评论 #20996807 未加载
评论 #20996743 未加载
评论 #20996610 未加载