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The Fermi Paradox and the Aurora Effect: Exo-Civilization Settlement

92 pointsby pkreinover 5 years ago

16 comments

doctor_evalover 5 years ago
I’ve always felt that the reason we haven’t heard from aliens is because they know New Physics and they use it to communicate. Given how much of the universe is made up of dark energy, dark matter and other unknown physics, it seems reasonable that there are significant discoveries to be made which could perhaps be exploited.<p>I mean let’s say we discover a new, non-electromagnetic way to communicate reliably over vast distances using some kind of low power, high bandwidth signalling system. We’d abandon EM in a geological heartbeat. In cosmic terms we would emit a wafer thin EM shell just 150 light-years thick - and then we would fall silent.<p>So basically I just think we don’t know enough physics yet. We are perhaps a few discoveries away from being able to listen in on alien conversations.
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_Nat_over 5 years ago
I thought that we already conclusively ruled out alien life by observing that there aren&#x27;t huge, galaxy-sized smoke signals, generated from their massive candles to heat their galaxy-sized cottages? I mean, if aliens were out there, then surely they&#x27;d have sent us a notarized letter in the mail by now, as would any civilized culture. I bet they use really fancy quill pens, too!<p>...seriously though, I can&#x27;t fathom why people are so caught up on the <i>Star-Trek</i>-like predictions where hyper-advanced aliens are still essentially humanoid. It&#x27;s at least as absurd as [protocells](<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Protocell" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Protocell</a>) assuming that all advanced life would be essentially protocelluar.
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nabla9over 5 years ago
Fill in time:<p>&gt; unless the effective probe launch time is greater than 270 million years, the galaxy is old enough for every system to have been settled from an initial single civilization<p>Conclusions:<p>&gt; When diffusive stellar motions are accounted for,they contribute to the Galaxy becoming fully settled in a time less than, or at very least comparable to its present age, even for slow or infrequent interstellar probes.<p>&gt;While settlement wave crossing and fill-in times are short, consideration of finite civilization lifetimes in a steady state model allows for conditions in which the settled fraction X is less than 1. Thus the galaxy may be in a steady state in which not every settleable system is currently settled.<p>Conclusion basically says that if there are expanding civilizations in our galaxy, they spread very slowly, have filled the galaxy sparsely or have limited lifetimes. Assuming they are not avoiding contact.
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mprevover 5 years ago
The Fermi Paradox always strikes me as hubris.<p>As Douglas Adams wrote, “Space is big. You just won&#x27;t believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it&#x27;s a long way down the road to the chemist&#x27;s, but that&#x27;s just peanuts to space.”<p>We&#x27;ve been looking for alien life for, what, 50 years? And we&#x27;ve made various assumptions about what we should be looking for. Oh, and we&#x27;ve been doing so on a very limited budget, with the technology available to us, in a tiny part of the sky .
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xcq1over 5 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;abs&#x2F;1902.04450" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;arxiv.org&#x2F;abs&#x2F;1902.04450</a>
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OscarTheGrinchover 5 years ago
One universal law that these discussions usually fail to consider is opportunity cost. There are a near infinite number of constraints and competing priorities at every stage of civilisional development, and that&#x27;s why we don&#x27;t see any Dyson spheres or similar grandiose outputs.
rocaover 5 years ago
They talk about planets and generation ships. Isn&#x27;t it obvious that a multimillion-year spacefaring civilization would be mostly autonomous machines that have no need for habitable planets and can sleep for aeons?<p>They also talk about civilization lifetime and interstellar resettlement. But interstellar resettlement doesn&#x27;t make sense to me; simpler for machine civilizations to hedge their bets by putting resettlement sleeper ships in highly eccentric orbits with some desired period. Maybe there are civilization-killing effects that disable those resettlers, but they would apply to interstellar resettlement too.
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YeGoblynQueenneover 5 years ago
- Where are my socks?<p>- Did you look in the drawer?<p>- Why, I&#x27;ve searched everywhere! I can&#x27;t find them!<p>- Well, then - you must have no socks. Your socks never existed.
YeGoblynQueenneover 5 years ago
&gt;&gt; Unless the individuals in the species driving the settlement have very long lifetimes (&gt; 100 y) it is dicult to see how a galactic scale culture can arise (i.e. commerce etc. Krugman (2010)).<p>Why is a mere &quot;more than 100 years&quot; considered a &quot;very long lifetime&quot;? Is there any reason to assume that the majority of intelligent species, capable of technological civilisation, that may inhabit the galaxy, will not have a lifetime measured in thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of years?<p>The lifetime of the averarge <i>star</i> is a few billion years. We can assume that mos species will not have naturally evolved lifetimes lasting bilions of years, but a) species may evolve lifetimes lasting <i>millions</i> of years, or, b) a technologically advanced species may extend its lifetime indefinitely.<p>A species whose individuals lived for a few hundred thousand years would have plenty of time to visit the Earth by travelling in sub-relativistic speeds, from a significant portion of the galaxy. A species whose individuals lived for a few million years would have plenty of time to visit the Earth and wait for our own civilisation to die out. A species whose individuals lived for billions of years could pay us an intergalactic visit and still have time for tea.<p>Extremey long lifetimes are not impossible and they are not even particularly improbably. Here we are wondering whether there are other technological civilisations among the stars. Why should we assume that they are anything like we are?
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solotronicsover 5 years ago
All of these calculations are predicated on us existing in a physical universe and not a simulation (simulverse?) it could be we are the only life in this specific simulated existence, even though the mathematical rules of the place would make it appear there should be others.
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aylmaoover 5 years ago
Here&#x27;s the thing— we&#x27;re assuming advanced civilizations want to expand in the first place. Why?<p>Life in OUR planet was shaped by competitive evolution and we have reason to believe life in other planets has been as well— it&#x27;s how natural selection works after all, and at least in our planet it&#x27;s proven to be an effective way to go from primordial soup to complex, intelligent life that can out-smart its competition hoard all the resources.<p>But how do we know that this is not a behaviour that civilizations, well, outgrow once they&#x27;ve hoarded all resources?<p>Unbound growth is an effective strategy in a competitive scenario like the evolutive stage of species, in large part because it&#x27;s also one of simple incentives. When a species becomes dominant though, it is very dumb, because the species will just end up reaching the limit of available resources and burning through them, thus killing themselves, like bacteria in a petri-dish multiplying until all the food has been eaten and they all starve to death.<p>The argument goes, that&#x27;s when a civilization would expand. Those bacteria would try to find another petri-dish. The species finds more resources so it can keep growing, but, can this incentive of &quot;we have to keep growing&quot; stand the test of time?<p>Simply from a practical standpoint, Alpha Centauri is 104691 times further than Mars. The technological gap between sending a colony to a planet in your system, versus one in another star is gargantuan.<p>First of all let&#x27;s consider that planets are all ballpark similar in size and resources, therefore value. Is the investment even worth it? Is traveling 104691 times more for the same resources a stronger incentive that simply learning to find equilibrium with the resources easily available in your system?<p>Even if for the sake of argument the civilization decides it is, could they even achieve it before running out their available resources? It&#x27;d be a race against the clock.<p>There is reason believe the civilization would be forced to find stability and equilibrium within their existing system before developing the technology to be able to feasibly colonize a neighboring star system for the purpose of extracting resources. And if not to extract resources, why put the effort to continue expanding?<p>Fear? Of what? A nonexistent galactic empire?<p>Pride? If their history is anything similar to ours (which, since we&#x27;re talking about similar motivations, is perhaps a feasible assumption to make), they would&#x27;ve learned colonizing far and wide does anything but promote a stable, unified, timeless nation.<p>Therefore, my guess is one of two things might happen:<p>1. They achieve stability because it&#x27;s the only way to survive, and the motivation to expand to another system dies off. Probe and explore, perhaps. But if in a stable system, there&#x27;s no incentive to introduce instability once again by adding another habitat. On the contrary, the prospect of instability is incentive to not.<p>2. They don&#x27;t achieve stability in their system, and so collapse.<p>In a nutshell, I don&#x27;t think there&#x27;s incentive for unbound expansion once stability has been achieved, and I don&#x27;t think unbound expansion can be achieved before stability. Of course, this is all just my opinion, but it&#x27;s worth thinking perhaps the entire premise of extrapolating primitive evolutive behaviors to an advanced civilization is out of frame.<p>Consider the future world of Brave New World by Huxley, or even the Time Machine by H. G. Wells. Neither seem to have galactic empires; instead opting for (very distinct) forms of stability (and decay).
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coolspotover 5 years ago
&gt; Using our steady-state model we constrain the probabilities for an Earth visit by a settling civilization before a given time horizon. These results break the link between Hart&#x27;s famous &quot;Fact A&quot; (no interstellar visitors on Earth now) and the conclusion that humans must, therefore, be the only technological civilization in the Galaxy. Explicitly, our solutions admit situations where our current circumstances are consistent with an otherwise settled, steady-state galaxy.
julius_setover 5 years ago
I mean if there are no other intelligent civilizations (yet) in the universe — which seems highly unlikely based on the numbers, then we have an obligation to seed the universe with ourselves and propagate other species through genetic enhancement and grooming.<p>We might be the progenitors of other intelligent species who might look back at us fondly and remember our shepherding.<p>Again highly unlikely, but a good point that we should not kill ourselves beforehand.
hosejaover 5 years ago
I find the assumption that a space-faring civilization would need ideal planets to settle on somewhat questionable.
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tikuover 5 years ago
Given the scale and vastness of the universe, if there was&#x2F;is other life we have a good change of finding some remnants of them, most likely spaceships?
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andrewfelixover 5 years ago
Interesting premise. Pity I can&#x27;t read the article.
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