It's an unfortunate fact that the GNU projects and their email lists have <i>always</i> attracted difficult people. If your organization is founded on inflexible ideological commitment (as the FSF is) then you will end up appealing to a lot of inflexible, idealistic people who are very committed to having things go their way. RMS has been one of the worst offenders in many well-documented ways, but every GNU project I'm familiar with has had its share of "missing stairs", who are often among the most vocal people on the project's -devel email list. Many of them are extremely proficient technically, but abrasive to others in ways that they might not recognize.<p>For newcomers to the projects this can lead to unpleasant interactions that push people away from volunteering on the projects.<p>At the same time, this shouldn't push you away from getting involved with a GNU project if you find it interesting. Many of the projects are full of kind, helpful, hardworking people. The maintainers in particular are mostly excellent. If you have an unpleasant interaction, I'd encourage you to reach out to one of the maintainers in a private message to ask for advice on how to contribute and work with the community. Often they can help by pointing you to specific people to talk to and interact with.
Mark Weaver's response should probably be read immediately after reading the linked post that starts the thread:<p><a href="https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00021.html" rel="nofollow">https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00...</a>.<p>To me, they both come across as eminently reasonable, and it makes me think the the Guile project is going to be in good hands regardless of what happens.
Finally some concrete examples of what RMS is alleged to have done wrong.<p>All those references from stallman.org seems like perfectly reasonable opinions to hold and express though.
Seems like you'd have to be fairly deep into radical leftism to read it as anything that "speaks for itself" that the author is due for an extra large helping of sexual taboo condemnations and being ousted from his job.<p>But if this is the level of differences that will cause cooperation-breaking conflicts these people can't work together.<p>Non-GNU Guile?
I don't know anything about the current goings on, but I read Wingo's blog for his fascinating technical insights. He has written some controversial things on hiring and collaboration that I do not agree with but do find helpful to understand what he's writing here about RMS:<p><a href="https://wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/04/the-hardest-thing-about-hiring-is-avoiding-the-fash" rel="nofollow">https://wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/04/the-hardest-thing-a...</a><p><a href="https://wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/05/a-new-interview-question" rel="nofollow">https://wingolog.org/archives/2017/09/05/a-new-interview-que...</a><p>Edit: The important takeaway for me is that he regards a host of project-unrelated views, including pro-free-speech views, as disqualifying.
Stallman is GNU. GNU is Stallman. If the project maintainer has a problem with Stallman issuing orders then he has a problem with being part of GNU. If a GNU project has problems with GNU then the solution is to fork the project into a non-GNU project, not try to usurp the name GNU into meaning something that is not RMS.
When I was 17, I started dating the woman who I married when I was 20. She was older than I was, so it's fairly horrifying to me to see people publicly equating "pedophilia" with "sex between adults and teenagers". It makes my old wounds ache to see respected community leaders like Andy Wingo publicly accusing her of pedophilia and, implicitly, of abusive behavior, promoting the unwarranted social stigma we had to struggle against for the entire duration of our relationship.<p>Although we were only intimate partners for seven years, the relationship was not in any way a matter of her taking advantage of me or abusing me. The relationship changed my life dramatically for the better, and I still love her, even though it has been some years since we last saw each other.<p>I thank God I lived in New Mexico, where the age of consent was low enough to protect her from legal risks in addition to the social ostracism she did suffer.<p>To state my position clearly, there is nothing wrong with sexual relationships between adults and older teenagers. It is not a result of pedophilia, nor is that situation inherently abusive. It does require special attention to issues of inequality of power stemming from economic and social differences, as well as the special difficulties faced by any relationship involving teenagers or people in their early twenties stemming from inexperience and higher levels of impulsivity.<p>Of course, the relationship that provoked this controversy had nothing of this egalitarian character. According to the account of Virginia Giuffre, the victim, she was enslaved by serial rapist Jeffrey Epstein, who preyed on teenagers precisely because of their economic and psychological vulnerability; he ordered her to have sex with a variety of men who were presumably unaware of her enslavement. Her obedient efforts at seducing Stallman’s friend Marvin Minsky included accompanying him on travel around the country, but she has not alleged that they actually had sex or that he knew of her enslavement. Physicist Gregory Benford testified to observing Minsky reject Giuffre’s advances.<p>Epstein may have had an additional motive for preying on teenagers: he maintained a large library of surreptitious video recordings of famous men having sex with enslaved underage women. There is evidence that Epstein was working for the US Intelligence Community; prosecutor Acosta accepted an unconscionable level of impunity as a result.<p>Stallman defending his dead friend Minsky from wholly unfounded allegations of “sexual assault” on the basis of the above facts is what provoked the current controversy.<p>I find it profoundly appalling to see people like Andy Wingo equating people like my beloved first wife to perpetrators of atrocities like Jeffrey Epstein, asserting that the most important fact about our relationship is that I, like Giuffre, was 17 years old when it began.
I think Andy Wingo issues with GNU should be more focused on his RMS management style and not his political or social views.<p>But it is clear that a number of people involved in the GNU projects have had issues with the management style and personality of RMS quite separate from his non-conformist views raising views on sexual mores.<p>Andy Wingo focusing on his views relating to sex risks turning one thing into another. He should just focus on the management issues within GNU projects and ignore the unconventional sexual views.<p>The Epstein case shouldn't be an excuse or a rationale for focusing on the leadership of RMS.<p>Having RMS as the leader of the GNU project is like having mildly eccentric relatives, especially parents. You just have to live with them.
> He threatened to leave because he wished to be consulted before I landed mixed definitions and expressions<p>Damn, isn't that what made Guido quit Python as well?
That email says how the author doesn't like rms or his various writings, then switches to an unrelated drama about how the author fell out with a major contributor and there's some ongoing shitstorm in the project due to that.<p>The title makes it sound like rms' fault but he only features to be ritually denounced in the first half.<p>I had to google what guile was I'll certainly be trying to avoid it now.
Bradley Kuhn also wrote an article with regard to recent matters with RMS, which was submitted on HN a couple of days ago, and (I think) received inadequate attention:<p><a href="http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html" rel="nofollow">http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html</a><p><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21262282" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21262282</a>
RMS is a difficult person. Anybody who has had anything to do with him knows that.<p>But he is also (relatively) a old person. He comes from a era when to get heard you had to shout. His generation turned out a lot of well intentioned, but bullying, people.<p>We are much more inclusive these days, we make efforts to broaden the appeal of our groups and ensure that people other than the usual alphas can function in them. But in that process we have become intolerant of the shouty bullying men (usually men, but not always) of old.<p>This is mostly good. But for RMS and Linus and lots of others of the old guard there is a difficult adjustment.<p>It is OK to have opinions. It is OK to express them. But what RMS and co. (me too, I had to, I am the same generation) had to, have to, learn is that we need to always speak our opinions softly. Because those who are "weaker" personalities than us view our shouted opinions as a affront. And if we want them in our groups, and I know I do, we have to accommodate them.<p>It seems RMS is stepping out of the way. I know Linus did. Any takers for a sweepstake on when Theo de Raadt will?