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Makers, Don't Let Yourself Be Forced into the 'Manager Schedule'

798 pointsby superhumanuserover 5 years ago

39 comments

heyflyguyover 5 years ago
I had this exact situation come up with an engineer that I can only call brilliant, with the most conservative of overtones. He was more than that. Being a maker myself I gladly encouraged him to work when he wanted, sometimes that meant he&#x27;d work 48 hours straight and sleep for two days and show up Friday. His 3 days of work (as his peers would describe it), easily was double the quality and output of his closest colleague. I loved having him on my team.<p>Eventually, other people started asking to work 3 days a week, suggesting that they too would pull all-nighters in an effort to have 2 mid-week days off. I let a few experiments happen but sadly in most cases the result was less than 50% of what they had been previously able to accomplish.<p>This led to a new merit based working system when we placed emphasis on sprints and achieving. This too ended up failing because the interconnected dependandcies of sprints were always bottlenecked by the slowest operator.<p>The final result was the eventual departure of my most prized teammate, and mostly due to peer pressure. I often think about how I could have better allowed his brilliance while not alienating the rest of his team, but in the end I failed.
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twblalockover 5 years ago
The ability to work during normal business hours, dealing with interruptions and collaborating with your colleagues, is a skill that every engineer should develop.<p>This skill doesn&#x27;t come naturally to some people, but it can be developed and it will make you more productive.<p>In particular, develop the ability to enforce encapsulation on your mental model of the program you are working on, so you don&#x27;t need to keep the entire thing in your head all the time (this will probably make your code better too). This makes it easier to get back into the flow after being interrupted.<p>The most productive engineers I know work during normal business hours, get interrupted constantly because they work on important projects with a lot of stakeholders, and get a lot of work done anyway. That&#x27;s what 99% of engineers should aspire to. There are very few rockstars like Carmack who are so good that the benefits of their crazy work styles outweigh the drawbacks.
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ben7799over 5 years ago
I feel like we&#x27;re only having this discussion at this point because:<p>- Agile brought interruptions to a new level of pain<p>- We have too many instant interruption communication points (slack)<p>- Open Offices have made interrution far worse<p>There were books about this concept 30 years ago. It was totally recognized that you shouldn&#x27;t break up an engineer&#x27;s time into tiny chunks with 1000 cuts worth of meetings.<p>But we threw it all out the window in the last 10-15 years with the rise of Agile + Open Office + Instant Message&#x2F;Always-On communication programs.
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tboyd47over 5 years ago
The fact that he had to work at night in order to get any concentration time would be a company culture fail in most situations. But, the devil&#x27;s in the details.<p>&gt; David Kushner reflected on the unconventional working style of the company&#x27;s ace coder, John Carmack.<p>&quot;Ace coder&quot; isn&#x27;t quite accurate job title. He was a co-founder. People act differently when they have legal ownership over their work.
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throwaway713over 5 years ago
As a maker (individual contributor), I have been having this issue a lot, but my attempts at pushing back do not seem to be going so well. Any time I reserve a large chunk of time on my calendar, people set up meetings on top of it anyway, or message me asking if that block time is &quot;real&quot; (as though quiet focused work isn’t a thing).<p>My days are filled with little dabs of 30 minutes here and there that are barely enough to remember what I had been working on before another meeting started, so I normally end up getting my actual work done late at night after an early dinner, which my wife is not particularly happy about.<p>Any recommendations? I’ve broached the topic lightly with my manager but don’t want to come across as whining, so I’ve generally just been trying to push back on meetings in the friendliest way that I can.
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scandoxover 5 years ago
Sometimes the problem can be one of self-definition, or of self-definition over time. Professionally, I have had years where I was definitely in maker mode and years where I was in manager mode. There are times when for a few months your head is down and you&#x27;re just making stuff. Then the making slows down and what you&#x27;ve made goes into maintenance or into a next planning phase where lots of things have to happen at the same time.<p>The problem can be that some developers see themselves as forever in maker mode: in other words they treat being asked to talk and discuss things as mere interruptions.<p>A lot of managers I think are quite traumatized by this in a way: they can feel like they literally have no power to make things happen. As a result they may well over-react over the course of a career and treat anyone in maker mode as simply another developer who won&#x27;t talk to them.
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the-dudeover 5 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hn.algolia.com&#x2F;?q=manager+schedule" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hn.algolia.com&#x2F;?q=manager+schedule</a><p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;paulgraham.com&#x2F;makersschedule.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;paulgraham.com&#x2F;makersschedule.html</a><p>And 7 days ago : <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=21440456" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=21440456</a> ( The Manager’s Schedule Is Holding Back Remote Work )
war1025over 5 years ago
The endless focus on &quot;rockstar&quot; productivity seems misplaced to me. This is a profession. You&#x27;re going to be doing it for a long time. No need to burn the candle at both ends.
kmstoutover 5 years ago
A few things that I&#x27;ve found helpful:<p>1. I start my day a couple hours later than typical for my organization. This both lets me work quieter hours and shaves time off my commute.<p>2. From 2 p.m. on is reserved as &quot;Real, Actual Work&quot; on my calendar.<p>3. I check email a few times a day. Any other time, Outlook is closed. Those who need me immediately can call my phone or visit my desk.<p>4. At least once a week, usually Friday, I work either as late as I can or until I reach a suitable milestone. The clock doesn&#x27;t matter.
C0d3rover 5 years ago
&gt; At the same time, real work is not getting done. Meaningful work is usually done quietly and in solitude.<p>You can do great work by pairing or mobbing too. Being isolated is good, but it&#x27;s harder to learn new things working by yourself.
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thrower123over 5 years ago
It&#x27;s often less the &quot;manager schedule&quot; that is the problem, but getting screwed into complying totally with the &quot;customer schedule.&quot;<p>The one that has been the bane of my existence for years now is the 9AM daily call with the customer that is on Europe or Delhi time. It just destroys the day when you start things off with that kind of thing, and get immediately tossed into placating and containment mode. Then whatever you thought you might be able to do for the day gets tossed out the window in order to react to the latest fire drill before the next call. It&#x27;s entirely reactive, rather than proactive, and it is soul crushing.<p>It&#x27;s almost lunch time now, and I haven&#x27;t done anything worthwhile yet today, other than try to bring some kind of order to this chaos and triage.
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gowldover 5 years ago
I find that the simplest way to avoid getting stuck on someone else&#x27;s schedule is to get a ~month ahead of your expected productivity (even if that means sandbagging estimates, or working extra, or accepting a bad performance rating because you are holding back on reporting your accomplishments), and then whenever you are asked for status update for management&#x2F;customer, report what you were working on last week&#x2F;month, not what you are working on right now. This means you are never playing &quot;catch up&quot; externally to yourself. It&#x27;s like having a month of living expenses saved in your bank account it&#x27;s a month of political capital saved up at your job.
draklor40over 5 years ago
Carmack was able to choose his timings because it was HIS company. People worked for him, not vice versa. To be the master of your time, you have to work for yourself, not under someone else. When reality and idealism clashes, reality wins.
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wizzardover 5 years ago
&gt; The reason why many managers fail to see and address this problem is that they are used to looking at communication and assume it&#x27;s a good thing. Because they see activity. People are attending meetings, talking to each other, the online presence indicators are bright green. Clearly, a lot of work is happening!<p>Yes, this. And a similar problem occurs when manager-types try to come up with metrics to measure programmer productivity. Their yardsticks for what constitutes meaningful work, as a manager, cannot simply be translated over to makers.
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PragmaticPulpover 5 years ago
The core message is true: Constant interruptions are bad, dedicated periods of focus are good, managers should help foster sustained focus for their employees. I think we can all agree on that.<p>However, this isn&#x27;t an unbiased article: This company wants to sell you a SaaS product that they think will reduce interruptions. They have an incentive to make you think that the manager&#x27;s schedule is as terrible as possible, because they want you to sign up for their SaaS tool. In my experience, each additional SaaS tool piled on to developers, no matter how well-intentioned, just introduces more distractions and overhead. Reading toward the end suggests some possibly helpful tools, but I&#x27;m not seeing anything that can&#x27;t be accomplished with some common sense and existing tools.<p>This blog post has unhealthy amounts of exaggeration and hyperbole. Consider the &quot;Actual Schedule&quot; chart in this article that only shows blocks of &quot;Ruined Morning&quot; and &quot;Ruined Afternoon&quot;. Or the claim that a single standup meeting can blow an entire afternoon because it interrupts the afternoon flow. The study they linked doesn&#x27;t even support such excessive problems with disruption.<p>These exaggerated narratives are seductive for two reasons: First, it&#x27;s true that interruptions come at a cost to focus on other tasks. Second, it gives us an easy out to blame everyone else for our lack of productivity or focus. Did I waste my afternoon on Twitter and HN instead of getting my work done? Well, I read an article that says it&#x27;s my manager&#x27;s fault for that 30 minute scheduled meeting that I&#x27;ve known about for a week. It&#x27;s always tempting to blame someone else, especially when there&#x27;s a shred of truth to it. I&#x27;ll admit that I fell into this trap for a while when I was younger.<p>Having grown up on &quot;Maker&#x27;s schedule vs. manager&#x27;s schedule&quot; I was a die-hard believer that managers had it easy, while engineers got the short end of the stick due to all of those pesky distractions. When I switched to management, I was shocked to discover that I still needed periods of sustained focus and that I still had problems dealing with interruptions. The maker vs. manager distinction I had learned about didn&#x27;t really exist, but in the manager role I had no choice but to work around it. Once I stopped blaming everyone else for my poor ability to recover focus or get into flow states, I became much better at managing my own time.<p>I firmly believe that articles like this are counter-productive, because they send a message that poor time management and excessive time wasting are not your fault, and therefore not your responsibility. That mindset closes the door for any possibility of improvement, which is the opposite of what you want. Yes, it would be great in an ideal world if we could work for a week straight without interruptions, but that&#x27;s not reality. Instead, focus on skills to better manage your own time and plan around interruptions.<p>Practice responding to people with &quot;I&#x27;m in the middle of something right now, can we talk about this after our scheduled meeting in the afternoon?&quot; to coalesce your meetings together. Or statements like &quot;I&#x27;m happy to help, but I&#x27;m really busy right now. Can you write this up in an e-mail, cc my manager, and we&#x27;ll look at it in the morning?&quot; If your manager is to blame, broach the subject in a professional manner and politely ask if your manager can help batch your interruptions into a single daily conversation. Put it on the calendar if you must, but the important thing is to take charge of your time management.<p>Finally, put deliberate effort into getting back into a flow state after interruptions. If your first reaction after returning to your desk is to open up HN or Twitter, then you&#x27;re part of the problem. I&#x27;ve found that putting my headphones on and spending 10-20 seconds mentally retracing my steps before the interruption is very helpful.
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peferronover 5 years ago
My impostor syndrome briefly reappears every time I read articles like this :) I don&#x27;t feel any state of &quot;flow&quot; or &quot;zone&quot; or whatever, and certainly wouldn&#x27;t consider my entire afternoon ruined because of a single meeting in the middle as illustrated in the article. If there&#x27;s a hard problem to solve, sure, I&#x27;ll work on it until 4 AM because I have a hard time letting go of unfinished things, but that&#x27;s mostly throwing hours at the problem and I don&#x27;t think I&#x27;m massively more productive than during the day at the office.
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TomMckennyover 5 years ago
If you genuinely are an X times programmer, unless you find the right environment, it is irrelevant. You will find under-utilization is common and so burnout comes quickly. As you can see in the comments, many places are unable to find ways to maximize your productivity. And once underutilized, you are of less value and so less valued. And even though these places will want you, they are a catastrophically bad match.<p>Since the risk of burnout from frustration is real, if you value your career, you will need to leave such places quickly until you find one that can utilize you maximally.
lxeover 5 years ago
Conversely, get better at handling interruptions. In almost every non-junior role (not just &quot;manager&quot;) you will be required to deal with many things throughout the day, coding being just one of them.
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alchemismover 5 years ago
It’s practically from another era at this point, but on this topic I cannot recommend enough <i>Time Management for Systems Administrators</i>[1].<p>Ops Engineers have the Firefighter-Maker-Manager dilemma to contend with. The techniques to balance reactive work with planned work adapts well to SWEs in open offices with too many meetings.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;shop.oreilly.com&#x2F;product&#x2F;9780596007836.do" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;shop.oreilly.com&#x2F;product&#x2F;9780596007836.do</a>
galaxyLogicover 5 years ago
To be a SW rock star you need to master 3 languages:<p>1. The programming language used and its (de facto) standard libraries<p>2. The language of the important design- and tooling patterns that are useful in the said programming environment<p>3. The language of the Problem Domain.<p>If you can master all three, then you are a rock star your productivity will be much higher than those of your colleagues who have not achieved the mastery of these.<p>Now what is the language of the problem domain? Often it is just the methods and functions already present in the application. Here whoever made the original design has a clear advantage over others who started working on the same application later.<p>When starting from scratch it is the language of the business, say accounting terms, and their meaning if you are building an accounting system of some kind.<p>The code is just something written in these 3 languages, if you can speak in those languages you can write the code down, and can read it and understand it and thus modify it further.<p>To master all 3 of these languages can take a lot of effort over time. But so it is with true rock stars. Think Jimmy Page, he had a long career on stage and in studio before he joined Led Zeppelin.
mathattackover 5 years ago
Who are these managers with nice even 1 hour blocks? My time gets chiseled down to 30 and sometimes 15 minute blocks, with rampant double scheduling.
cwyersover 5 years ago
&gt; At the same time, real work is not getting done. Meaningful work is usually done quietly and in solitude.<p>I don&#x27;t really like this definition of meaningful work. Yes, there are some tasks that require focus and inventive mental work. But those aren&#x27;t the only tasks a &quot;maker&quot; faces. And they aren&#x27;t always the most important ones.
jpincheiraover 5 years ago
Totally. These days what I do is I allocate time for features&#x2F;product and just go hard on it for Standups [1]. I do say 1-2 weeks building product as if it were a hackathon. When I am done, I go back to marketing &amp; sales, in the manager&#x27;s schedule.<p>So in short, I do things on consecutive days:<p>* to code, I do maker&#x27;s schedule.<p>* to sell&#x2F;talk to users, I do manager&#x27;s schedule.<p>I&#x27;m feeling like writing on the topic as well, as it can be valuable for other solo founders too. I struggled a lot in the beginning when building Standups.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;standups.io" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;standups.io</a>
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gdubsover 5 years ago
I&#x27;m curious what the meeting schedule of Bell Labs was like. I get the sense that the researchers had plenty of time to invent, take naps in their office, and at the same time bring a lot of stuff to market.
cjfdover 5 years ago
This is kind of true but the article is pushing it a bit far. In the schema there is an afternoon with block of two hours. One would hope that a maker could do something in a two hour block...
meristemover 5 years ago
I agree with the post&#x27;s view of maker time. I disagree with its ideas around manager&#x27;s ideal schedule. My experiences as a manager were that the disruptions of hourly &#x27;something new&#x27; were unhelpful for strategy development or even moving the tactical horizon to something past &#x27;next week&#x27;. This resulted in my &#x27;actual&#x27; work being done before anyone else arrived or after everyone else left. I have met very few managers who did not have similar concerns.
systematicalover 5 years ago
I was digging this blog until...<p>&quot;The most straightforward way to address this is to build a team knowledge base. Not only does that minimize the number of repetitive questions bounced around the office, it allows new team members to basically onboard themselves.&quot;<p># Insert nuclino advert #<p>Right....That&#x27;s a culture thing, more than it is a software solution. You can only use a software solution to aid the culture, not the other way around.<p>In my experience, This culture needs to come from the top-down.
orevover 5 years ago
Good idea in theory. Almost impossible in practice.
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mark_l_watsonover 5 years ago
I have always time shifted my working hours, at SAIC, Angel Studios, Google, and Capital One I would arrive very early to get some quality thinking and coding time - and then leave early. Some people at work probably thought I was goofing off, but they would roll in at 9am and not know I got to work hours before they did.
graphememesover 5 years ago
As a manager it&#x27;s very hard to get everyone else on board with this
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GCA10over 5 years ago
Paul Graham is so very, very right when he highlights the limitations of managers&#x27; view that &quot;one hour&quot; is an important increment of time.<p>For me, the most important interval is a decade. Get your big goals right, and that huge swath of time will let you do something hugely transformative in your work, your sidelights or your personal relationships. But to get there, you need the stubbornness to work through the hard stuff for a long time without immediate rewards.<p>You also need the freedom to reinvent your approach a couple times, without feeling embarrassed or doomed.<p>Being a maker calls for a totally different clock.
ThomPeteover 5 years ago
The makers response should always by default be. “Do you want i know or when its done” then after that a discussion about delivery schedules can be had.
teekertover 5 years ago
Agreed wholeheartedly, in fact I try have meeting days and work days, the workdays I am usually working from home.
bayesian_horseover 5 years ago
Erm, working at night has some serious health disadvantages. even if you get enough sleep during the day. One of the worst things you can do is switch those schedules regularly.<p>Some people may be able to do this, especially for a few months or years. Many however, will break down sooner or later!
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ilakshover 5 years ago
My suggestion is that you get rid of the managers and have senior engineers manage themselves.
dfilppiover 5 years ago
That&#x27;s why remote workers are more productive, provided they can get isolated at home.
martin_henkover 5 years ago
Actually someone understands my trouble
meedover 5 years ago
So much truth...
edisonjoaoover 5 years ago
interesting