According to the article, the real decision will be made by the courts and the courts have already returned Uber's license in the past:<p><i>"When TfL decided not to renew Uber's licence in 2017, the company addressed some of the issues raised by TfL back then and then a magistrate later granted Uber a new licence.</i><p><i>On the face of it TfL is standing tough against perceived failings by Uber. But in effect it is letting the courts decide, at a later date, whether Uber should have a licence, or not."</i>
After living for years in London, it’s hard to compare Ubers with black cabs.<p>In the centre of town during the day black cabs are often ubiquitous, immediately available, and skilled at getting you the hell out of dodge. Something for which I’m happy to pay a premium.<p>Anywhere else they can be capricious and scarce. After 11pm this is the case with in fact almost all black cabs anywhere in the city, when a very different type of driver — “borrowing” their license from a friend, card machine with a “sorry not working” post it taped to it, no chat — starts working the night shift. Usually these are more often likely to be rental drivers — during the day it’s owner drivers. The difference between the two classes of driver is, if you will, day and night.<p>By contrast, the semi robotic Uber will always come, eventually. They’ll drive past you. Go the wrong way to pick you up. Stop on the wrong side of the road and wait for you to cross because they don’t have a tight turning circle. Go the wrong way on your journey. It’s a fact of life that while not all black cab drivers meet the highest professional standards, it’s much rarer to find a good Uber driver.<p>SF and the Bay Area — I mention them as the root source of Uber’s app and product culture — certainly aren’t a cakewalk to drive around but it’s not a patch on London’s warrens. You can absolutely see that in the navigation skills of those using the big map apps to get around, and those who did The Knowledge. My subjective viewpoint isn’t some romantic notion based on <i>the old ways</i> or <i>traditions</i> either: everyone I know in London has pretty much the same experience.
I'm not a fan of companies like Uber or AirBnB who attempt a violent takeover of a market. However, as a consumer who needs to get from A to B, or stay at some random city, I find those services invaluable. The black cabs in London are expensive, never around when you need them, and until recently might have refused card payments (now they just seem unhappy about it). At the very least I was hoping Uber would make that industry wake up and join the modern world, but instead they chose to protest and block roads. With Uber, I always have a car available within minutes and the prices are reasonable. I just hope that the competition will take their place (and driver mass) if they do end up leaving.
The problem with Black Cabs in London is that the drivers go around like they are god's gift to Earth.<p>Sure "The Knowledge" is an impressive feat of learning, but more often than not the drivers don't make use of it because the best route is not the most profitable one for the driver.<p>I have lost count of the number of times I have been subjected to the "tourist tax" where the driver heads straight for the major artery roads with their traffic jams (e.g. Kings Road, Strand, Embankment etc.) so you get to sit there watching the meter clock up whilst you move nowhere. Or the number of times the quickest and least-traffic route is South of the river but the driver sticks religiously to the Northen route.<p>Or the number of times the driver fumbles slowly getting the change, in the expectation that you say "oh forget it, keep the change" ... even if that change is £4 or more !<p>Or when I've been driving around London only for the Black Cab in front of me to stop on a double-red line to drop off a passenger. Or make a U-Turn in the middle of a busy street.<p>Don't get me wrong. I'm not fond of Uber either. Their standard of driving is pretty poor, and I hate the way they sit at the Heathrow <i></i>DROP-OFF<i></i> area waiting for their next job.<p>What I am saying is that the London cabbies are in dire need of some stiff competition. Yes I would rather that competition come from someone of better quality than Uber.
London resident here. I would like to see Uber compared to the existing mini cab companies and black cabs rather than some perfect vision of a taxi company.<p>Uber took off here easily because existing minicabs were all really really crap. Not just expensive but often rude or incompetent drivers. I would guess a lot of them were unregistered and uninsured and their cars barely road legal.<p>Black cabs are Better but very expensive and still rip off tourists all the tine by charging without the meter. Even with the meter it was impossible to get any idea how much a trip would cost before you took it. And you needed cash.<p>Example: One time I got a minicab, it took the guy over half an hour to arrive, then he had to actually find me which took even longer. Then I realised the back seats of the car were full of vomit and he made me ride up front with the windows wide open - it was winter and cold. Then he didn’t know where he was going and got lost and then he charged me £30 for what would have cost £10 on Uber.<p>Uber, by comparison is great.
If the concern over rider safety was that somebody could pose as an Uber driver and update a photo to make it work, why are black cabs not also deemed unsafe? Couldn't somebody borrow a friend's black cab, slap on a fake photo, and work the city? Maybe a stretch, and more work, but the same concern is there, no? I guess the black cabs have some powerful lobbyists in parliment? Yellow taxis in NYC were a monopoly, and medallions cost a fortune, and somehow it seems to have settled down a bit. Some latecomers to the medallion gig lost a lot in the transistion, but isn't that true of any new jump in technology or service?
I'm always amazed at how fatalist about this sort of thing Londoners are. Like losing Uber will be a massive problem for a huge portion of the population.
London has, by FAR, the best, cheapest and most efficient public transport in the entire UK.
Uber is, yeah, cheaper than a black cab but also why is it cheaper? Worse working conditions, VC-subsidised, lower standards for vetting (as we've seen here!)
It's not sustainable, and while there's obviously a market need for a cheaper app-based minicab service in London, Uber has proven repeatedly that it can't be trusted to do that.
Something about this doesn't make sense to me.<p>I take it for granted that the staff at Uber would do anything not to lose the license. I am sure that, for 17 months, they've been investing heavily in security systems, ID verification etc. They must have followed up on every complaint. If I were them, I would have just manually followed everything that the Cabs do till I had a technology in place.<p>It also seems that the city is making some effort to give them space to improve: 15 months, then 2 months.<p>So then why didn't the gap close in time? Is this because the technology platform was so massive that turning it just took more time? Or is there something about the details that I can't see?<p>Edit: I start with the assumption that both Uber and the City are trying to do their best, and don't ascribe nefarious intent to anyone.
"Only in the last few months it has been established that 14,000 Uber journeys have involved fraudulent drivers uploading their photos to other driver accounts - with passengers' safety potentially put at risk getting into cars with unlicensed and suspended drivers."<p>This seems, from a technical perspective, an easy problem to solve with the resources of a public company.<p>Is it the desperation of people who need the money so badly they will constantly cheat the system? Can you design for that?
It's pretty amazing how consistently Uber fails to abide by even the most basic regulations. How many times does a billion dollar company get a second chance? Every time this happens people talk about how the Mayor will get in trouble for this, but let's face it, ride hailing apps are 10 a penny. Lyft, Taxify, MyTaxi? No one in London is going to miss Uber.
have you ever wondered what makes services like Uber affordable?
1) underpaid drivers
2) VC money dropped into an otherwise unsustainable business<p>I'm pretty sure Uber will raise prices the moment it kills the competition
The article doesn't really explain... their current temporary license (they have been on a temp one since last year) expires at 11.59 tonight, TFL won't give them a new permanent one. This will be in the courts today and they will probably be granted another temporary one before the day is out.
I don't usually use Uber —we live in a place where it just doesn't exist— but I've been exposed to it a couple of times this last weekend. It's private hire but worse.<p>A family member booked. A driver committed. The wait got shorter. Then it got longer. And longer. And then our trip was cancelled without reason. Another was booked. Same gig. We had no opportunity to 1-star those drivers for being dicks. The third arrived but we didn't get the fabled offer of foot massages, nor were we plied with snacks or drinks. It was just a cab ride with the awkward "You've been great passengers, I'll rate you five stars!" exchange at the end. "Err, thanks mate?"<p>The return trip was pretty similar. It's 1am. Want to go home. One dropped. It's getting really cold now. Second arrives. Again, an entirely standard private hire experience with the added convenience of being asked to rate at the other end.<p>But this lack of recompense for crappy initial service isn't good. If a real private hire did that, you'd use another company and would never use that one again. You'd tell friends and family not to use it. You'd be able to complain to the council about the company. With Uber, you just huddle up and hope the next is better.<p>This is by far one of the more benign complaints you hear about (versus deliberately slow routes to push the top end of the range, or surge pricing) but it absolutely undermines the purported convenience factor. Being able to talk to a manned rank in actual contact with their drivers is <i>so</i> much better in practice.
Deliveroo should suffer a reckoning too, if there’s any sense in the world.<p>Have you ever seen a bunch of Deliveroo riders clogging up the public space outside a restaurant or other public space? Why should one business get to exploit pavements for profit, without regulation. Private companies shouldn’t be able to co-opt public space without scrutiny or permission.<p>Or maybe I’m too ethical and not being enough of a <i>hustler</i>, and I should move my team into the desk space at the local library?
For those of us in London who are totally fed up with bullish companies like Uber who refuse to play by the rules and systematically tread on workers' rights, there's a worker's cooperative called TaxiApp (<a href="https://www.taxiapp.uk.com" rel="nofollow">https://www.taxiapp.uk.com</a>) which works on a non-profit basis and attempts to give a similar experience to that of Uber/Lyft/Hailo etc.<p>Unlike the others, it's operated and owned by the workers - so you know that everyone is getting a fair deal.
A few things going on here. This is a continuation of an ongoing battle between Tfl and Uber. Last year Tfl threatened to revoke Ubers' license unless it complied with regulations involving basic safety checks and coorporated with British Transport Police over crimes committed by drivers.<p>Well, one year on and Uber has not been able to get its house in order. This move will doubtless be extremely unpopular with Londoners, many of whom will suspect that the black cab unions are behind it. Uber called Tfl's bluff last year knowing there would be a public backlash if their services were withdrawn. It will be interesting to see how it plays out this time.<p>Regardless of your opinion of Uber and their labour practices, they offer an incredibly valuable service to millions of people. They have massively increased the availability of minicabs, made booking them incredibly easy and safe (not to mentioned with far better coverage than was previously possible) and affordable to more people. Not only that, thousands of people now make a living driving Ubers whom before wouldn't have been able to get a job as a minicab driver at all, as the firms would artificially limit numbers to keep fares high.<p>Uber and Tfl are both playing a risky game here.
>At least 14,000 trips involved drivers who weren’t who the riders thought they were,<p>any idea what the source of this info is?<p>And not sure what the timeframe here is. Is it 14000 since Uber started operating in london?
It's from 2017, but this is still relevant: <a href="https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/understanding-uber-not-app/" rel="nofollow">https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/understanding-uber-...</a>
Here is the announcement from Transport for London:<p>* <a href="https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/november/uber-london-limited-found-to-be-not-fit-and-proper-to-hold-a-private-hire-operator-licence" rel="nofollow">https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/novemb...</a>
Uber was a good service for me until for some reason it appeared to have flagged me internally as a sort of driver beta tester, and from then on would only give me drivers with less than 2 weeks on the app. The experience was awful and dangerous so I abandoned it for good, but the good thing out of it all is that it sprung up competition and it was easy for me to jump to another app with better drivers (for me).
My favorite cab experiences have been in London, but I'm not gonna lie: my favoritest favorite experience was a cabbie in Tijuana forty years ago who pulled out a bottle of tequila, took a long swig from it and offered the bottle to my mother, father, aunt, and uncle, while driving like he was in a Dukes of Hazard screen test.
>>> Uber initially lost its licence in 2017 but was granted two extensions, the most recent of which expired on Sunday. The firm will appeal and can continue to operate during that process.<p>What a time to be alive. Don't have and don't need a license.
Damning comment from /u/caldos4 on reddit:<p>> Tons of breaches documented here [1], at least 14 000 trips with unlicensed (uninsured) drivers. Drivers with suspended licences were allowed to re-register with Uber, drivers were allowed to drive without insurance on their vehicle.<p>I genuinely wonder if Uber could keep enough drivers if they stopped allowing uninsured or suspended drivers.<p>[1]: <a href="https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/november/uber-london-limited-found-to-be-not-fit-and-proper-to-hold-a-private-hire-operator-licence" rel="nofollow">https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/novemb...</a>
It seems that 43 out of 45000 drivers were able to drive illegally - it's bad, but not a horrific. Is there a time line available? Was this is in one year or overall since Uber's existance?
Interesting though, same incident, same news from 2017:
hxxps://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-41358640<p>I'd assume, this will be resolved like the last time, just a minor hitch.
Uber banned one of my friend, he was driving with Uber with rating 4.91 and great reviews. Uber stupid AI (or that stupid developer whoever developed that stupid AI) thought user ratings and reviews are wrong and they are right, blocked him and he lost his income. I will never ever use Uber anymore.
<i>Private transporting is not sustainable and it is not something that has to be affordable for everyone</i><p>I am curious how you get to decide on what should be affordable? And what if somebody disagrees?
<i>Taxi regulations gives us passengers safety and fair prices.</i><p>Do not know about London. In my location all the money go to paying license fees and to the actual owners of Cabs (any entity with the money but the taxi driver). And how exactly exploiting taxi drivers makes us safer I have no idea.<p>Failure to do criminal background check is also pathetic lame excuse. I really doubt that said former criminal got into taxi driving job and paid all those fees in order to rob/assault passengers.
I know this opinion is not popular but I'm so happy everytime I see bad news for Uber and all these companies that only exist thanks to basically exploiting THEIR workers.<p>Private transporting is not sustainable and it is not something that has to be affordable for everyone, even less by lowering workers wages or playing with the tariffs by demand. Taxi regulations gives us passengers safety and fair prices. There are taxi apps that work exactly like Uber's like 'Free-now' where you can see your trip, its aproximate cost, the driver's rating...<p>We have to promote governments that support affordable and good quality public transport, even though I love driving alone in my car.<p>I hope Deliveroo, Glovo and other companies are also punished for their labour rights abuses. Make sure your delivery guy is payed fairly or either go to the restaurant yourself.<p>So many years of labour rights fights being attacked by these startups that do not invent anything but base their business model on lower wages.
You can't hail a regular taxi in London with your phone <i>still</i>? Why? How do you get them? Call? Or do you have to wave your arms?<p>It's been 10 years since you could first do it in e.g. Stockholm with normal licensed taxis.<p>Edit what I mean are regular taxis, not "black cabs", "minicabs" etc. I mean the iconic taxis. If you can't hail those, why not?
hopefully it gets resolved, Uber is much more convenient than traditional taxis, I love that you pay via the app and know the route you're taking, however the issue around unauthorised drivers using regular drivers' profiles is worrying
I'd be very happy to see uber kicked out of London long enough for a competitor to take hold.<p>I simply do not trust the company.<p>I accept that the market pressure uber has brought has improved transportation. I do not accept that uber and its repeated atrocious behaviors required for this.<p>Its a shame that uber can so easily bypass tfl with appeals and minor changes.
TFL should actually provide a reliable service if they want to start pointing fingers. They talk about security and safety but it's not safe to have to wait around hoping for the off chance a scammy black cab will spot you after your TFL train gets cancelled for whatever reason.
uber is not getting kicked out just yet... they can continue operating while appealing... apparently have been operating without a license for a couple of years already using the appeals process.
The only thing these disruptive companies (Uber, Deliveroo) are providing is unregulated access to cheap labour in first world countries.<p>I don't know why on earth that even technical people praise them so much.<p>The technical innovations to delivering this cheap labour are just an afterthought.
I tried to use Uber three times in my life, including once in London, and every time I get all the way to try the point where it is looking for nearby cars then it stops and says my phone number is invalid. Contacted their support, sent them a screen shot of my iPhone screen showing my number, they said it was fixed. A few months later I tried to book a car again and exact same thing happened. So I don’t have a lot of sympathy when they fall on hard times. I eventually gave up on Uber and tried Lyft, works painlessly and reliably, a little extra comfort when I’m in a unfamiliar city.
On one hand i am glad that a transnational company is getting stopped like that, especially when breaking the rules. they are basically a giant money hoover that comes in and sucks the money offshore with offshore interests as #1 priority.<p>on the other hand, often it often takes an outsider to disrupt a well established and corrupt market in order to move it forward.