You know that Golden Rule?" Not the one that VCs quote, but the one that goes "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?"<p>We should think about that when we choose how to deal with uncontacted tribes. It may be that one day another intelligence will need to decide how to deal with us, and on that day I hope we can say, "Yes, we used to have a habit of massacring technologically inferior peoples we encountered, but we grew up a little and we don't do that any more. Then we used to keep them alive but destroy their culture and identity while mouthing platitudes about how we were helping them, but we grew up a little and we don't do that any more either."
I wonder what kind of disturbance just the helicopter (or whatever method was used to capture the footage) caused on the tribe.<p>Obviously the tribe was aware of it, but if they've never been contacted, would they be able to even fathom what such a thing is? I'm genuinely curious because I'm also genuinely ignorant on how "uncontacted" tribes like that are and what their civilization is like.<p>Could anyone enlighten me? It seems like such a fascinating area of study.
"If illegal loggers or miners contact these people, they won't shoot images... They'll shoot guns."<p>Very few realize that there's more to protect in the Rainforest than trees.
Man charged with the task of protecting indigenous people from intruders flies overhead in a plane named after the Cherokee indian tribe.<p>Insignificant in the great scope of things, but I smirked a little.
I have been skimming over the comments in here, and I have come to two thoughts. First off, I don't have a well-established stance, but our god-like observation of their civilization is ... strange. I wonder what would happen if they all were struck by a terrible disease as the scientists with their kilometre-spying cameras watched. Would they go and help? Where's their "don't contact them" nature, then?<p>But that wasn't the thought I intended to contemplate. Some people have said that their culture is lost. Why is their culture lost? And this is terrible, but, does it matter? If their culture is full of things long since dis-proven, what has been lost? If they choose to leave their old ways upon discovering/learning (through whatever means) our ways, what does that matter? Please explain why these things are bad to me. If a people has chosen a different way of life upon experiencing it, who cares that it's gone? The anthropologists that were having fun? This desperation to keep these people isolated reminds me of another article I read on HN a while ago that discussed scientists that were very sad about the situation that polar bears and grizzlies were beginning to breed. I thought it was beautiful to see their joined species able to survive, but I can only imagine the people that wanted to keep them separate were disappointed, in part, because there wouldn't be any pure-bred polar bears anymore.<p>My other thought is a request to HN for this very type of article. Please, please, please, for heated debates like this with the numerous tree-like threads. Please make a way to collapse sub-threads so the train of thought that brought someone to a particular point can be clearly seen.
To avoid any confusion, from the site's FAQ:<p>"Is this an ‘undiscovered’ or ‘lost’ tribe?<p>No. This is empty sensationalism. It’s extremely unlikely there are any tribes whose existence is totally unknown to anyone else. The uncontacted tribe in these photos has been monitored by the Brazilian government for 20 years, and lives in a reserve set up to protect uncontacted tribes."
Absolutely fascinating stuff, and for me anyway it raises some interesting ethical questions. Making contact with these tribes would (I would imagine) destroy a lot of culture, to say nothing of the obvious issues of disease, etc. On the other hand, in a society where we claim to value innovation and progress, failing to offer these tribes the benefits available to others feels a little wrong. Given the choice between our lifestyles and theirs, how many of us would choose theirs?<p>It raises some interesting legal questions too. In the United States for example, I believe (and I could be wrong on this) starting in 2014 we would fine these tribes for failure to purchase health insurance. To say nothing of the "Republican Form of Government" guarantee in the constitution.
The idea of uncontacted tribes - still in existence - is awesome. ...but it's a little scary too to consider the famous Arthur C. Clarke quote "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."<p>Sure, these tribes may not have been contacted, but what mythologies have evolved to explain the strange, huge bird in the sky that circles around them from time to time?
I am really getting a kick out of the ironic juxtaposition of the most technologically primitive segment of the world population getting space up here at the top of Hacker News. After all, the Hacker News audience represents arguably the most technologically sophisticated segment of the world population.
<a href="http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/01/5965571-newly-released-photos-of-uncontacted-amazon-indian-tribe-give-us-a-glimpse-of-another-world?GT1=43001" rel="nofollow">http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/01/5965571-newl...</a><p>This has better photos. According to NBC report in 2008, an agency has been aware of the tribe and have been tracking (and not contacting) them since 1910.
This "footage" hit the news a couple of years ago in Brazil, and a couple of days later was challenged as being fake. I could look more into details and see if there is any translation from the articles back then, but I will stand that this is NOT an "uncontacted tribe".
Uncontacted tribe has had some contact <a href="http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-110201-tribe-da-03.photoblog900.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-1...</a> - I see a metal pot in that image.
As far as the argument of contact or no contact, I don't have an answer but I think the issue is that contact often destroys the culture rather than helps it grow and evolve.<p>I have read some things that indicated native americans lost in part because they adopted guns and abandoned bows. They lacked the means to make or money to buy the type of oil that would work in cold weather and used lard instead, which firms up in the cold. They would keep their guns under their blankets with them to keep the lard warm enough for the guns to work. Just adopting one piece of technology did not resolve their problems and it was a technology they were ill equipped to adequately maintain.<p>I am reminded of a scene in "Lawrence of Arabia" where he tells the Arabs "If you take English engineers, you take English rule."<p>Where you have a large, "evolved" culture with a density of people, material goods, information and so on, contact with a culture that is less "dense" (in terms of numbers of people, amount of material goods, etc) tends to simply wipe it out, sometimes literally killing all members (because microbes in large communities evolve rapidly and become more virulent -- Americans who move to Europe, which is more densely populated, routinely wind up with a horrific flu shortly after moving there, far worse than the flu bugs typically caught in the U.S. This is common knowledge in the military community/among military families who have ever lived over there.).<p>I wish a knew a means to gently make contact and offer options. I think that would be the ideal. I have no idea if it is achievable.
It's so easy to play God hovering in the skies, and make decisions for these people's future, isn't it? Maybe they actually don't enjoy 50+% child mortality, dying of appendicitis, and having to barter a truckload of plantains for a pot and a steel machete. Why don't they send someone on the ground, to explain to them that there's a big world out there that can change their ways forever, and give them a choice whether they'd like to be a part of it or not?
A trail to the articles pronouncing this a hoax/fake back in 2008:<p><a href="http://www.geekologie.com/2008/06/fake_uncontacted_amazon_tribe.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.geekologie.com/2008/06/fake_uncontacted_amazon_tr...</a>
Meta about some of the comments on this post: I've never seen such unbridled arrogance and xenophobia in a post on HN before. The our way or the highway attitude is shocking.
Watching this clip was one of the worst Flash video experiences I have ever had. Ridiculously laggy.<p>On another note, watching this video was also one of the most humbling experiences I have ever had.
This issue is tricky and not for some of the reasons I've seen listed in this thread. My maternal grandparents were both the children of indigenious South Americans so this is somewhat personal for me. One the one hand if we contact them then we are dooming everyone in the tribe above the age of about ten to dependency for the rest of their lives. They will go from being autonomous, skilled members of a sovereign tribe to illiterate, unskilled Peruvian citizens in one fell swoop. In their world they own their land, have their own system of wealth and acheivement and customs that are tailored to their own strengths. In our world, they are penniless and barely subsist on land that is actually owned but the Peruvian government. Unless the proponents of contact are willing to provide the extensive resources they will need in order to assimilate to our way of life, I say we leave them alone. I saw alot of mention of technology and medicine and all the other comforts of modern life, but those things are not free for the taking. There are hundreds of thousands of
There's something appalling about this, as if remote tribal people are to be watched like animals on the Discovery channel. It's creepy. They're not there for your viewing entertainment.
As the BBC reports, the advocacy group that is promoting these images acknowledges that the persons shown have steel machetes, which must be trade goods. So to call them "uncontacted" is stretching a point.<p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12325690" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12325690</a>
Reminds me of "Guns, Germs, and Steel". I've started reading it a few weeks ago, following recommendations on another HN thread. Great book so far.<p>Part of the book focuses on diseases, and how epidemic diseases only spread in large populations. Problem appears when small tribes with no immunization are exposed to these "common" diseases...
as I am currently living in Peru, this is pretty moving to me. the argument here on both sides is pretty powerful, and you can easily find passionate people telling you it's real, or it's fake, etc etc. The president's (Alan Garcia) accusation that environmentalists are making "uncontacted people" up seems pretty ridiculous to me though, as there seems to be a lot of evidence supporting the claim that there a number of uncontacted peoples in the remote regions of the country.
It sucks that if these uncontacted tribes were to try to make contact, the only people that would be there to meet them would be loggers. I can't imagine loggers would treat them with the same dignity/respect that a trained professional might.
I'm astounded (perhaps I should not be) that so many assume that the lives of the people in these cultures must be short brutish and unpleasant. For a culture, or set of cultures to survive and likely thrive for 1000s of years in the jungle it must be a rich life. Take a look at the decoration these people paint on their skin for instance. They have free time to decorate and adorn themselves. They have farms. They have technology and knowledge beyond what your small minds can imagine. Yes, technology, they can light fires, create traps for the food they need, farm and make tools from all manner of naturally occurring materials that surround them in abundance. I'd wager they live an abundant happy life. Sure, they have their difficulties. But I live in modern society and I have lots of difficulties too. These people live in a tightly knit family and society. I envy them in some ways. I certainly wouldn't be sitting here thinking how much better I have it from them. They have a different way of life. To assume their way or our way is better can only stem from ignorance, and oh of course, no shortage of arrogance.<p>If someone took you and immersed you in the jungle you'd be lucky to last a day or two.<p>Think of what would happen to one of these people if you put them in a city.
I once attended a talk by Carl Sagan where, during the question-answer session, someone mentioned how much we could learn from "primitive societies". Sagan replied that we should not glorify such lives. In addition to other things, he said that in 1900 the average life span in civilized countries was 35. As artificial and commercialized as we have become, technology has improved our lives.
With the amount of comments on this page it's unlikely anyone will even see this, but am I the only one surprised at how many people still use the term "Indian" to refer to natives populations who look a bit like Indians?<p>As far as I'm aware, this is the sole reason for the origination of the term in this context (as opposed to, you know, people from India).
I find it extremely disgusting. There's nothing wrong with contacting others. Everyday I'm contacted by lots of people: colleagues, marketers, head hunters etc. They give me <i>choice</i>. Let members of the tribe enjoy the same freedoms. Stop treating them like animals in a ZOO.
Given loggers, or just the general expansion of modern civilizations, they will run into the outside world. Wouldn't it be better if they were given a gentle introduction? Send in some speakers and voice/video feeds. Eventually send in people. If they want to be left alone afterwards, it's their choice. If some people want to explore the outer society, let them.<p>If you look at say, Malaysia, the Iban have done pretty well in Sarawak--contact doesn't have to result in the destruction of the natives...
Knowledge is misery, so better leave them alone.<p>Having knowledge about the world only shows you how much you don't know. And the more you learn, the more you are aware of all the things you have not yet discovered and will never learn in your lifetime.<p>So, its much nicer to be able to know "the whole world" (i.e. the isolated village you live in). You know everything and everybody in the "world" and for the stuff you can't explain (lightning, death) you just make up a god and blame it on him/her.<p>What a great life!
It's absurd to say they are "uncontacted". They are humans after all. How can such a smart crowd fall for that headline stuff?<p>Concerns about their public health and inability to defend their property rights (our interpretation of those rights, at least) may be well founded. However, this whole episode says more about how Brazil tries to control loggers than it does about indigenous people. They are finally starting to slow down deforestation, using any tool they can.
To everyone saying that they should be given the opportunity to join our civilization, it's not like they have a choice. They'll die if they get the common cold or flu or at the very least come close to death.<p>And how do we know that our civilization is "better" for them? It's not like they could become incorporated into our society anyway (not the current generation). Contacting and converting them is more an act of self-righteousness than anything else.
<p><pre><code> "The house of ‘The Last of his Tribe’, a sole surviving uncontacted man who lives on his own in the forest after the rest of his tribe were massacred"
</code></pre>
<a href="http://www.uncontactedtribes.org/evidence" rel="nofollow">http://www.uncontactedtribes.org/evidence</a>
How do uncontacted people view us? They seem to be mesmerized by the plane, and even chase after it for a longer look. Can't we just ask them how they want to relate with us? I'm sure we can find some way to discuss the matter with them and still not be invasive.
We shouldn't impose anything on them, but why not make contact?<p>Offer them our technology and let them decide whether they want to use it.<p>I wouldn't want to be treated like a primitive animal in a zoo incapable of making their own choices by a technologically superior way of life.
I think the best way to do this is observe, document and study as much of their culture as we can without contact, After that contact them to with the goal of medical help and protection. And proceed carefully from there.
In my opinion they would have left their forrest a long time ago if they where really curious to seek out what was beyond it. The fact that they stay, indicates to me that they are happy with the way life is.
gokhan's comment is buried quite deep, but needs to be seen:<p>"Check the FAQ first:
<a href="http://www.uncontactedtribes.org/articles/3109-questions-and.." rel="nofollow">http://www.uncontactedtribes.org/articles/3109-questions-and...</a>.<p>But could this be because they don’t see the benefits of ‘our’ way of life? If they knew, might they want to join us?<p>They won’t get the chance. In reality, the future offered by the settler society is to ‘join’ at the lowest possible level often as beggars and prostitutes. History proves that tribal peoples end up in a far worse state after contact, often dead."
Did anyone else notice that one of them shot an arrow at the plane? lol.<p>In all seriousness I wonder how they would treat someone like him if he just showed up one day. Probably depends on the day of the week.
Throwing my 2 cents in here but I just wonder whether by giving them right to choose culture we would inadvertently have already made that decision for them.
Poor poor people - they'll be better off if we stay away.<p>EDIT: There is absolutely no chance that our western society has 'got it right'. If you think otherwise, I'm afraid you're deluding yourself.
How is it that some peoples can remain in this state for so long? Please don't read disrespect in the question, I mean it neutrally. There seems to have been very little innovation or growth in terms of technology when you look at people still living like this.