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What Unix Cost Us [video]

152 pointsby stargraveover 5 years ago

16 comments

BlackLotus89over 5 years ago
This talk took some weird directions. It&#x27;s called &quot;What Unix Cost Us&quot;, but to be honest it isn&#x27;t.<p>Starts with USB-driver coding in Win, Mac, Linux.<p>Goes over to colonialism.<p>Made some good points about Computer-architecture and how they shape programming languages and then some bad&#x2F;wrong points.<p>Ends on community cultures and some controversial thoughts about gender equality and then he doesn&#x27;t take any questions.<p>Talks off a shitstorm and then isn&#x27;t ready to face it. Don&#x27;t know have seen better videos about the same topic.
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linguaeover 5 years ago
I thought this talk was an interesting overview of some of the limitations of Unix (particularly Linux) and C, although I wish the speaker had discussed more details as to why C is not a match for modern processor architectures and how modern languages such as Rust address these issues.<p>Another thing that I&#x27;m curious about is how much familiarity the speaker has with Plan 9? Plan 9 from Bell Labs is the spiritual successor to Unix, created by many of the Bell Labs researchers who originally worked on Unix. The creators of Plan 9 pushed &quot;everything is a file&quot; to its limits. Sadly, although I have read some Plan 9 papers, I haven&#x27;t actually used the operating system. I&#x27;m really curious about what the USB example in this talk would look like in Plan 9?<p>I do wish there was more development in alternative operating systems. I like Unix, but there were many ideas from VMS, Smalltalk, the Genera operating system for Symbolics LISP machines, the classic Mac OS, BeOS, Plan 9, and other operating systems that we can learn from and that would be very useful to have today. Also, today&#x27;s hardware is quite different from the hardware of 50 years ago. We have multi-core CPUs, GPUs with hundreds of cores, very fast NVMe storage devices, and other amazing technologies. There has also been much advancements in programming languages, with more people willing to explore alternatives to C and C++ such as Python, Rust, Go, Clojure, Haskell, Swift, and many more, each providing different abstractions for dealing with diverse programming tasks. I wonder what an operating system for the 2020s would look like given the advances in technology and the lessons learned in the past decade.
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incompatibleover 5 years ago
I suppose on Linux, libusb itself is supposed to be the general programming interface, not the poking around with &#x2F;dev or ioctl. The Windows and Mac interfaces he was using are quite possibly implemented as libraries over a more primitive layer.<p>Speculation, knowing nothing about USB specifically.
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soraminazukiover 5 years ago
Not everything may be a file indeed, but I didn&#x27;t get what he was trying to point out with the specific example he gave. To make his point, he compared the USB APIs provided by Windows, macOS, and Linux. Then he went ranting about how Linux looks terrible because you had to manipulate files and use functions such as snprintf, ioctl, and fnctl. However, this is not at all a fair comparison because he was comparing the Linux <i>kernel</i> interface against much higher-level <i>userspace</i> library APIs in Windows and macOS. So what are the problems he encountered with this specific example, that had actually harmful consequences? I honestly can&#x27;t tell.
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clktmrover 5 years ago
&quot;Everything is a file&quot; is one of the most misunderstood concepts I encountered, to the point where people think that disk IO is involved. A file doesn&#x27;t even need a filename (eg sockets).<p>The main point is to have a common interface for system resources, which happens to be the file api in Linux. Think of it as the base class of everything. There is a bunch of tools&#x2F;code that operates on file descriptors, which you can reuse now.<p>Build better interfaces on top of that if you want to.
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gdm85over 5 years ago
Some parts of the talk did not really stitch together; if we consider the main arguments against Unix (and the funny dab at Plan9) I felt them a bit lacking in the sense that they do not propose alternative philosophies, but only a liberating &quot;mixing things together is cool&quot;.<p>I can totally understand that as a form of catharsis, and a mindset totally apt for hobby projects, but if we are playing in the realm of OS design...I would think we can do better in terms of architecture and philosophy? &quot;anything else is better&quot; does not really convince me, some structure is usually better than none at all.
thunderbongover 5 years ago
Wonderful talk. Lot&#x27;s of interesting points. Much of the technical went over my head though. But from what I understood, the main point he&#x27;s trying to make was - we are stuck with a way of thinking in technology which was right when it was thought up, but has run out of it&#x27;s usefulness.<p>I found his point, with respect to *nix, very insightful - &gt; Unix suited it&#x27;s time. I worry it has ended up straight-jacketing the way that we think because that was quite a while ago. It still works, which is amazing. But that doesn&#x27;t mean that it&#x27;s tenets and it&#x27;s way of work should be sacrosanct. We should feel free to examine every idea and throw them out if we feel they no longer have value for what we&#x27;re doing.<p>The analogies from history and communities were also very interesting (e.g. meritocracy).<p>Other points that I liked -<p>- Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers.<p>- Understand the past, but don&#x27;t let it bind the future
kccqzyover 5 years ago
I watched the video. A few good points: should everything really be a file? He used the example of simply talking to a USB device on Linux without libusb involving a bunch of snprintf to construct a file path, and then a big bunch of ioctl. Setting up a device apparently requires creating a bunch of magic directories and magic files and magic symlinks and mounting magic filesystems... I feel that he has a good point about this. Not sure how Plan 9 does this better though.<p>Besides, he also talked about how I&#x2F;O was blocking, and even when non-blocking I&#x2F;O was available it&#x27;s still synchronous until the recent introduction of io_uring. Windows appears to do this &quot;right&quot; with its completion ports. This part of the video was much less convincing, IMO.
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swileyover 5 years ago
Unix at least picked one abstraction and stuck with it, contrast windows which is a dizzying mess of incompatible ideas. It’s so bad that more paranoid people may think Microsoft disorients people on purpose.<p>There are other operating systems that also chose singular abstractions like the cannon cat and smalltalk.
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rs23296008n1over 5 years ago
I think I prefer the plan9 approach of &quot;everything is a file&#x2F;filesystem&quot; rather than the unix &quot;everything is a file&quot; as typically seen. Actual usage of files, filesystems and namespaces under plan9 was more consistent than the file approach under linux. It was a lot of fun playing in plan9.<p>Regarding the video, of the three examples the windows approach was shown as more succinct. I thought the linux version was messy. The mac version seemed overly complex. Whether these were actually representative is another matter. I can&#x27;t say how but I&#x27;m not convinced - there seemed to be some artistic license &#x2F; suspension of belief required.<p>The remainder seemed to be meandering but I sense you had to be there.
layoutIfNeededover 5 years ago
I’m 29 now. I wonder if I’ll live long enough to be able to use cancellable non-blocking mkdir.
pjmlpover 5 years ago
Very entertaining talk, specially regarding the cargo cult that gets carried around.
robert_tweedover 5 years ago
I&#x27;d like to know, from anyone with Plan 9 experience, does its approach to &quot;everything is a file&quot; solve these problems?
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kragenover 5 years ago
I&#x27;m skeptical of Benno&#x27;s claim that we <i>should</i> consider meritocracy &quot;a dirty word&quot; because &quot;it&#x27;s a lie&quot;. Certainly it is true that no community of practice achieves meritocracy, just as no polity achieves democracy — there are always some citizens with more influence than others, so it is always possible for the government to act against the interests and values of the majority of its population. Should we therefore consider democracy &quot;a dirty word&quot; because democracy &quot;is a lie&quot;? Perhaps it is better to consider it an ideal to which we aspire, without feigning to have achieved it.<p>Let&#x27;s consider what alternative ideals are available in place of meritocracy for governing a community of intellectual practice.<p>We could strive for a democracy, in which the decisions are made by the majority — but the majority of whom? For this to meaningfully distinguish a community of intellectual practice from the surrounding community from which it arose, as a lotus blossom arises spotless from the swamp, a distinction must be made between voting members and outsiders. (Can you imagine a Linux User&#x27;s Group where all the presentations are about Microsoft Windows, or a Python conference where all the talks are about Java?) But that is just a way of postponing the question of who the voters are.<p>We could strive for consensus, like the Quakers, in which any collective decision is postponed until every member agrees; but, like democracy, that demands gatekeeping that draws an ingroup&#x2F;outgroup distinction, so it is not really an answer to the question of who governs, just how they govern.<p>We could strive for anarchy, in which all decisions are made individually, and there are thus no collective decisions to be made, whether by the meritorious or by anyone else. A variant of anarchy is &quot;do-ocracy&quot;, where decisions are made by whoever shows up and makes the effort required to implement them.<p>We could strive for a gerontocracy, in which the oldest members — perhaps by length of membership rather than by physical age — make the collective decisions.<p>We could strive for a high-school clique, where the decisions are made by whoever is most popular.<p>We could strive for a plutocracy, where the decisions are made by whoever is wealthiest, or who donates the most.<p>Given these alternatives, it seems to me that when anarchy and consensus demand unacceptable tradeoffs, the least undesirable alternative is meritocracy. In meritocracy, the decisions are made by the <i>best</i> members of the group, according to some measure of merit that seems worthwhile to the group; in a community of intellectual practice, this usually amounts to some kind of knowledge and skill, seasoned with judgment and perhaps a guess about aptitude. If they are the wisest members, then they will make the best decisions. The greatest foolishness is to subject the wise to the government of the foolish. If some of the foolish and ignorant currently are so simply because they have not had the opportunity to learn, we can best remedy that by guiding them to learn from the wise, not by putting the foolish and ignorant in charge.<p>Of course, meritocracy as an ideal cannot be reached, only striven for; but it is a better ideal to strive for than a high-school clique, a gerontocracy, or a plutocracy.<p>Which of these are the campaigners against meritocracy hoping for?
Aqueousover 5 years ago
am i the only one who thinks it’s a good thing that his Linux example was shorter than the other two and required less calling into hyper-specific API functionality?
dscplsover 5 years ago
Awesome talk. Especially connecting how leaving an entrenched mindset behind applies both to architecture and to diversity in our communities.<p>And that our meritocracies are not as pure as we&#x27;d like to think.
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