TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Pioneers vs. Process People

122 pointsby olieidelover 5 years ago

9 comments

zdwover 5 years ago
The absolute best technical person is a meld of these two.<p>Pure pioneers look like the fabled &quot;10x programmer&quot; on the outside, but leave a hellscape of technical debt in their wake.<p>Pure process people are so busy building their perfect ivory tower they miss the actual goal of getting stuff done.<p>Somewhere in the middle, where you&#x27;ve figured out how to move fast but also avoid causing the tech debt you&#x27;ve encountered in the past is the right place to be.<p>This usually boils down to having good boilerplate when you start something - for code, that might be a trivial but well understood linting and testing framework that you can add at the start of a project, or a simple way to start documenting a business process.
评论 #22217302 未加载
评论 #22218831 未加载
评论 #22217294 未加载
kristiancover 5 years ago
I’m not sure I accept the distinction. For the amount that the concept gets bandied around, there’s actually very little evidence that people fall into discrete personality types like these.<p>We are all stronger and more experienced in some areas than others, but simply writing yourself off as ‘Not a process person’ removes your ability to level up and takes away your ability to do any better.<p>It’s especially sad as these ‘scripts’ often do not come from inside, but are baked into people from leadership and then justified by Myers Briggs style psychobabble.
评论 #22216869 未加载
评论 #22218132 未加载
评论 #22220373 未加载
评论 #22217600 未加载
mr_tristanover 5 years ago
What makes me uncomfortable is tying my professional identity up with a part of the product lifecycle.<p>Sometimes it&#x27;s just fun to take on risk, and other times, great to be able to eliminate risk. But fundamentally, almost everything in tech is a kind of wicked problem. Sometimes that problem domain sometimes shifts to areas where you have less control.<p>Where things usually go off the rails are when you feel like you&#x27;re no longer making contributions. I find _this_ is really what &quot;pioneer people&quot; are really griping about. It isn&#x27;t that they need to &quot;move fast and break things&quot; or other such BS. It&#x27;s that they got used to having control and seeing the impact of their work. After a while, things become complicated, and it becomes hard to see how they make much of a difference.<p>Usually when I see one smart, inspired person leave because of &quot;process&quot;, there&#x27;s often a team left behind frequently spinning their wheels on something useless.
pdimitarover 5 years ago
Well, I am again gradually becoming a pioneer -- after having been a very solid repair&#x2F;maintenance programmer for most of my career. So the distinction in the article feels artificial and kind of extreme to me. It did a good job illustrating two extremes though, so not complaining.<p>Reason for my transition back to pioneer is: teammates aren&#x27;t willing to listen to me and I can literally observe how they paint themselves into a corner, in real time, with front-row seat. And if I even dare imply something like &quot;I told you so&quot; when things inevitably come to fixing tech debt for weeks without meaningful new features deployed then I get branded as non-constructive and bad team player, with them completely skipping the part where I offered help with their concrete ticket (and a small refactoring as I go).<p>And that&#x27;s only one example out of hundreds -- obviously I&#x27;m not talking about only one workplace.<p>It got so bad that I started using 1-2h work hours a day to work on my own stuff, or just do invisible huge coding reviews and put notes aside with the hope they&#x27;ll be useful one day. That way I can&#x27;t get criticised for being the only guy who doesn&#x27;t idolise shipping above everything else. I do ship but not several times a day, and I try to touch code carefully.<p>I do agree shipping should be in the top priorities but it should be balanced with expected future tech debt and the ability to revisit the code months later and be actually able to work on it again. And of course, that never happens. Shipping is always an absolute top priority with zero &quot;if&quot;-s or &quot;but&quot;-s. Sigh.<p>&#x2F;rant<p>---<p>Back to the article&#x27;s topic, well, I was just saying that I am one of these people who were pioneers as teens and during their early career, quickly became the trusted go-to repair guy for everyone around because that made money and helped many others, but are now drifting back to being a tinkerer and a pioneer because nobody seems to want to listen to experience.
telover 5 years ago
I strongly like the idea of pioneers as compared to &quot;settlers&quot; and &quot;town planners&quot; (see Simon Wardley&#x27;s writing). But the idea that pioneers have and&#x2F;or benefit from no process is BS.<p>The best pioneer is structured and has process. A pioneer&#x27;s job is to efficiently conduct tests to derisk some space. This involves the creation of lots of artifacts which do not, usually and probably for the best, include running, trustworthy foundational code.<p>But that doesn&#x27;t mean that work wasn&#x27;t full of process. It&#x27;s just often a little harder to scale and comes intuitively to some individuals. The process includes things like (a) rapidly reintegrating learning, (b) listing out assumptions and attacking them with an invalidation-minded perspective, (c) brainstorming novel ways to uncover new information cheaply, and (d) rapidly building new mental models and sharing them.<p>That&#x27;s process, too, but not process that creates a functioning machine. Just one that proves such a machine could exist.<p>It&#x27;s critical to not run the wrong process at the wrong time, so leaving when the pioneering is over can be a good move, but so might finding a new place for pioneering on the edges of the &quot;settling&quot; that&#x27;s begun to move in.
k__over 5 years ago
Reminds me of Wardley Maps.<p>Pioneers experiment with new stuff.<p>Settlers try to get good ideas in a more product-y form.<p>Town planners make a easy reproducible commodity from it.
aytekinover 5 years ago
Pioneers are supposed to be working behind the scenes on the next version, not quitting the company.
评论 #22217791 未加载
oweilerover 5 years ago
Pioneers: people who leave behind a clusterfuck for the other engineers to build upon.
评论 #22217044 未加载
评论 #22219141 未加载
评论 #22218828 未加载
评论 #22218708 未加载
评论 #22218383 未加载
评论 #22217039 未加载
jojo2000over 5 years ago
Very interesting piece. Same experience here (jump in, build knowledge assets, build team). Last part different, be CTO&#x27;s worst fear, have you team scrambled, projects refused, go somewhere else taking on a bigger and harder challenge. Funny part is they lost 2 years, hired obedient lead, then went on building exactly what I presented them. They even went to the press claiming this stuff was their own idea. How would you feel ?<p>Yes, we hate meetings. We understand each other fast, work together at stellar speed, clash often. Sometimes, we code without tests. Bad practice ? Break my code.<p>Pionners and process people are at odds most of the time. Let&#x27;s push this idea further.<p>Pionners are <i>always</i> despised by the tenants of current state of affairs. Bourdieu explained this very well regarding art. Why ? Process people have the power and spent most of their lives perfecting their current knowledge and craft. Inventing something disruptive will disrupt their power. Galileo, one example amongst a lot.<p>Even the most advanced people at their time have had theirs quirks around this fact. Maxwell predicted that his models had solved physics and that the few problems remaining (like Black-body radiation) were minor problems, where it led to relativity and a new revolution in physics.<p>Process people are made of habits that work well, ensuring intellectual comfort and easiness, which is very reassuring. We make you itch and scratch, because we live in never-ending uncertainty and know that theories are ephemeral in the grand scheme of things.<p>Some dogmas of biology have collapsed in recent time. One of the most funny was &quot;brain cells don&#x27;t divide after end of adult growth&quot;...<p>This line of reasoning also invalidates a whole part of human theories about things. Fukuoka explained it very clearly: we draw pseudo-conclusions, only valid in a closed-system which in itself is a pale representation of reality. We try to reduce complexity to make it manageable by our current brain power. Those conclusions are wrong, when complexity is taken into account. Economics is based on wrong assumptions, but it works most of the time.<p>Knowing this leads to respect and not mess with fundamental building blocks we don&#x27;t understand (gene editing is such a monstruosity).<p>Tell me about discomfort.<p>Pionners are risk-taking, and don&#x27;t bother about controversies, they create those. They are despised and critisized by process people because they disrupt and destroy, as they create new paradigms. Destruction créatrice. They overthrow intellectual kings.<p>Speaking of experience, being a pionner is <i>very</i> difficult as everyone is against you and you got to prove to everyone that what you&#x27;re doing is better and possible.<p>Let&#x27;s digress about personal examples in order to settle those assumptions into reality.<p>When I was a kid I could solve the problems that math teacher gave using different methods. Most teachers would not even look at the method but rather blame it. They didn&#x27;t want to make the intellectual effort to understand the stuff.<p>When I did my PhD I destroyed theories of some peers using experiments. Well, let me tell you, my academic career didn&#x27;t last long.<p>When I worked in aerospace, during the day my boss yelled at me &quot;shitty stuff&quot;, while copying my code in another codebase at night.<p>How can pionners bring value to this world ? It&#x27;s as hard as producing metallic hydrogen. How to convince an investor when you always look at things from another POV. When the problem you&#x27;re tackling is far from solved. Risk seems too high.<p>Let&#x27;s rather focus on solving big corp problems and get easy money.<p>Funny thing is : we have an ability to connect to each other. A gang of weirdos trying to attack the doxa.<p>So, the problem is : can there be a collaboration between those two kind of people ? Here is a very fun example. Rust. This language brings to a large audience some very powerful concepts like ownership, truly a pioneering work. What do people do with that language ? Rewrite the same tools.<p>Problem with pionners is we cannot stand repetitive work. So after the thrill of finding a new solution is gone, we tackle some other problem. That&#x27;s were we can build together as innovating is far from enough, and there is a lot of work left for process people, as told by aforementioned piece.<p>That&#x27;s why I only work in small startups. Because once the group is too large, we are naturally surrounded by process people. Pionners are a small fraction of people. Once critical mass is reached, burden to leap forward is simply <i>too high</i>.<p>Don&#x27;t get me wrong. Too many pioneers together is a bad mix too. Pionners have strong opinions and this may lead to frequent clash and incompatibilities. Process people all have the same processes, so there is less to argue about.<p>Following that line of reasoning, large organisations are just unable to produce breakthroughs. When processes take over, you&#x27;re doomed.<p>So much respect for Elon Musk who has built crazy ventures that manages to break paradigms. That&#x27;s a crazy achievement. Same holds for Steve Jobs, who could torture an org to squeeze new ideas.<p>But what&#x27;s important ? Intellectual thrill or steady business ? Choose your horse !