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Our critique of Behringer's proposed TD-3 variant with Devil Fish functions

45 pointsby pgreenwoodover 5 years ago

14 comments

nkozyraover 5 years ago
Behringer has a very specific business model at the moment and it&#x27;s the cheapest possible clones of classic synths.<p>To be honest, they&#x27;re an incredible efficient company now and if you contrast that with their reputation for building unreliable junk it&#x27;s a pretty impressive evolution.<p>Most of what they clone hasn&#x27;t been in production in decades. Often the companies have changed hands or gone out of business. The clones are orders of magnitude cheaper than the real deal used and generally have more functionality (see: the new Poly D). In short, there&#x27;s demand but not much realistic supply.<p>It&#x27;s <i>possible</i> Devil Fish has some patentable novel concepts but the skeptic in me says probably not. He&#x27;s trying to operate in a different business space than behringer is. That seems to be the dispute (beyond the very fair critique of the word murder and the color)
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S_A_Pover 5 years ago
Ive had the pleasure of interacting with Robin via email a few times over the years. He is <i>the</i> expert when it comes to modifying your Roland X0X machine. I paid him for a few hours of consulting time to modify my TR-808. This guy was more than fair about what he shared with me, and gave me extremely detailed notes beyond the scope of what I asked for.<p>I&#x27;ve been following the Behringer &quot;synth wave&quot;, and Ive purchased quite a few of them(RD-8, TD-3, K2, and WASP). I purchased the RD-8 as the platform to try the 808 mods since I didnt want to really tear up my 808. The other things I purchased were all out of print synths, and I think it makes total sense for Behringer to revive these models. They have the scale and tooling to make it happen at low cost, and I generally support that mission.<p>However, Uli has a cloud over him regarding his business practices that never really goes away. In this case, I cant support Behringer at all. Boutique gear is always going to cost more, and if you want to use his designs (patented or not) you need to compensate the responsible party. He may not be legally entitled to, but ethically and morally its the right thing to do. I dont have a window of the economics of building the TD-3 or any Behringer synth, but I would imagine that R&amp;D is pretty low. Existing schematics are used and most of the R&amp;D would be around finding suitable replacements for the circuits if the original parts are not available.(or in Music Tribes case, they can reproduce ICs)<p>I may reconsider future purchases from Behringer in light of these events...
jccalhounover 5 years ago
Just in case anyone is wondering, &quot;murdered out&quot; is slang for all black. The oldest definition for it on Urban Dictionary is from 2006 <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.urbandictionary.com&#x2F;define.php?term=murdered%20out" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.urbandictionary.com&#x2F;define.php?term=murdered%20o...</a>
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dmschulmanover 5 years ago
After Robin Whittle wrote this piece, Behringer&#x27;s president Uli Behringer decided to publicly air his entire private email exchange with Robin in order to tell &quot;their&quot; side of the story.<p>I believe this was done to show they offered Robin some (abet paltry) compensation of $15k, but publishing their entire private correspondence seems like more of a bullying tactic than anything else. Behringer has very little to lose here and they know it, but the conduct is unbecoming.<p>Should we allow large hardware manufacturers to bully and push around small businesses and DIY hardware hackers like this?
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somesortofsystmover 5 years ago
The synthesizer world is a tempestuous, incestuous, hyperventilating hive of wannabe and actual rock star keyboarder&#x2F;synthesis&#x2F;tweaker&#x2F;producer&#x2F;dj&#x2F;bedroomer barbarians.<p>We should expect no manners from an industry which has, for 40 years, been copying itself.<p>Innovation is really happening in the synth space, but what happens - and which is rarely accomodated for - is that these devices persist on into the future <i>because they are musical instruments</i>.<p>If you attack ones right to copy, you may as well leave the music industries.<p><i>Musicians Copy</i>.<p>Its a vital and necessary aspect of the culture and art itself, and the disallowing of it is a tragic attempt to thwart the art, itself.<p>Now, does this apply immediately to the commercial musical instrument manufacturing industry?<p>Like I said, its incestuous.<p>Devil Fish are perfectly right to keep their ideas to themselves until they are ready to commercial it themselves, and this seems to be a breach of that trust. Tut tut, never talk to a bigger fish unless you&#x27;ve got a hook!<p>However, Behringer are not to be feared! They bring new blood to the market by making the cheap stuff. Everyone knows, even if the kids buy the cheap stuff, good music gets made until it doesn&#x27;t.<p>And then, they buy the better stuff.<p>The DF guys should just gear up the mod, and make themselves a better machine. Every single Behringer will be mod&#x27;able. My Neutron already has a firmware update that turns it into a poly-synth, FFS.<p>Now .. Every 6 months or so, on average, the &#x27;perfect musical instrument consumer&#x27; spends a quarter of their regular monthly income, on gear. GAS is a real thing, manufacturers know all about its harvest, and exploitation.<p>(Disclaimer: sitting in a room full of synthesizers, oldest one was built in 1972, been making them myself personally for decades, love the subject to death, have a very strong opinion on the subject, see above.)
llcoolvover 5 years ago
My experience with Behringer guitar effects pedals is that they are 1:1 clones of more popular ones (mostly by Boss). Here is an example list: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tonestart.com&#x2F;ultimate-behringer-guitar-pedal-clone-list&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tonestart.com&#x2F;ultimate-behringer-guitar-pedal-cl...</a><p>Basically, the components in a 80-250 EUR guitar pedal are worth around 5-15 EUR and the rest is intellectual property. So it is possible to pirate hardware as well.
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lazersharkmanover 5 years ago
I had to stop reading when there was some moral tinge that Berhringer is somehow doing something wrong by producing technology for cheap that is out of patent, namely that somehow it&#x27;s wrong for Berhinger to produce the Model D when Moog produces one as well. Author claims these &quot;compete&quot;. Maybe. Different price points and different quality of builds.<p>Moreover, this guy is a modifier not a manufacturer. Having his name on a product is a huge marketing scheme, probably providing him with more business than he could keep up with. I didn&#x27;t know Studio Electronics until Roland. This just reads like he let something fall through, and he wants to blame berhinger somehow. It&#x27;s not even as if his tech was patented, so, what&#x27;s the point of writing this? IP is an abstract philosophical farce and no one really owns ideas.
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jwildeboerover 5 years ago
When you think that doubling the price is a reasonable thing to ask from a manufacturer that is known to focus on exactly the opposite (low price) - you might be in for disappointment.<p>When you add to that a demand for some running royalties per sold device that goes up when more devices are sold (thus making end price calculations unpredictable) AND ask for the final word on component selection - you just might be a bit too confident in what you think is the power you have in negotiations. To put it mildly.<p>[Edit typos&#x2F;formatting]
vorticoover 5 years ago
As with nearly all of the Behringer clones, there is nothing the legal system can do to provide what is &quot;fair&quot; to the original designers of their cloned circuits and interface likeness. In my opinion, there is no way to solve this problem. Perhaps design trademarks? This happens in every hardware industry, and China is usually the country that can provide the lowest prices for manufacturing a product.
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dep_bover 5 years ago
It’s super questionable what they did to Moog since creating an authentic enough version of the MiniMoog with modern parts takes quite a bit of research. This was not a 40 years old abandoned design like many of their other recreations.
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Heinakroonover 5 years ago
For those interested, here&#x27;s Uli Behringer&#x27;s response in full: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;textuploader.com&#x2F;16l0e" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;textuploader.com&#x2F;16l0e</a>
dintechover 5 years ago
There are plenty of other mod designers for the original 303. I&#x27;m sure there will be a bunch of non-Devil Fish mods anyway.
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ptahover 5 years ago
just waiting to get my yellow limited edition td-3 and then i will look at modding the blue one i have now. the df mods are quite extensive, i would look to keep the machine simple. i&#x27;ve seen some diy td-3 mods floating around
blattimwindover 5 years ago
tl;dr Behringer did not want to double the price point of the product. The rest follows. The post mostly discusses royalty schemes.
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