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The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

312 pointsby havellaover 5 years ago

39 comments

sturgillover 5 years ago
Can you imagine the criticism if the investment arm was losing money? The Church does amazing work providing resources during crises. I’ve personally cut trees off of people’s houses with chainsaws provided by the Church and given buckets of sanitation supplies when hurricanes swept through Florida.<p>There is always a tension in “what do you spend now and what do you invest for later” but I honesty feel like the Church cannot win this argument. Those who are distrustful of organized religion can win if the church is poor (“why didn’t their ‘prophet’ know better”); if they’re rich (“why don’t they give to X”); or if they do nothing (“they teach their own members to save but don’t practice that themselves—the hypocrites”).<p>I’m a believer so my view is not disinterested, but where is the conversation that they are conservative in their investments; won’t make money from industries they teach against; etc.<p>There are very few people in the ecclesiastical arm of the church who work full-time and are provided a living stipend. And many of those people were very successful before leaving their professional lives.<p>The current President (Russel Nelson) was a pioneer in open heart surgery. I’m pretty comfortable assuming he would have made more money in his life had he not accepted a calling to full-time ministry.<p>To me this article is interesting but the reaction is predictable. People will read into the confirmation of whatever biases they had to begin with.<p>For my part, I’d rather the church invest wisely than poorly...
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tomrodover 5 years ago
That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary.<p>They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the finance clerk across several congregations and the analogue of dioceses--wealthy congregations would regularly see $25k&#x2F;week from 200 congregants and have a budget of ~$8k annually, but this offset with congregations in less affluent areas). They also have massive economic influence over Utah, surrounding states, and often growing suburbs.<p>They have a very diversified portfolio. As doctrine they take the second coming of Christ seriously and believe they will transform into the world wide government on his return.<p>For the record I left several years ago, but have many family members still heavily involved. It&#x27;s an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bizjournals.com&#x2F;orlando&#x2F;morning_call&#x2F;2014&#x2F;03&#x2F;farmland-reserve-own-2-percent-of.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bizjournals.com&#x2F;orlando&#x2F;morning_call&#x2F;2014&#x2F;03&#x2F;far...</a>
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starskublueover 5 years ago
It&#x27;s important to note the historical context around this. The LDS church used to be constantly in extreme debt and close to having their religious buildings taken away due to it. Then in the early 1900s they instituted a simple financial policy that could also be an example for members.<p>1. Spend less than you take in. 2. Save&#x2F;invest a portion of what you bring in for a rainy day.<p>Thus over a hundred years that builds up. I&#x27;m a Mormon and personally don&#x27;t have an issue with it as I know that wealth doesn&#x27;t go to church leaders (they all get the same stipend which for many is less than they made in their professional lives) and is simply fund available to the Church for times of need.
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hpoeover 5 years ago
Many have been asking what the Church does with the money it has. The official response can be found here <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;church-of-jesus-christ-finances" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;church-of-j...</a><p>In addition this is the official response of the Church in reply to an almost identical story that ran not too long ago <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;first-presidency-statement-church-finances" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;first-presi...</a>
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jbellisover 5 years ago
As an ex Mormon, I&#x27;ve read a lot about this. The single most useful piece for additional context that I&#x27;ve seen is this one by historian Kathleen Flake. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mormonstudies.as.virginia.edu&#x2F;2019&#x2F;12&#x2F;23&#x2F;mormonism-and-its-money&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mormonstudies.as.virginia.edu&#x2F;2019&#x2F;12&#x2F;23&#x2F;mormonism-a...</a>
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bensonnover 5 years ago
Is 100 billion really that much? The church has 16 million members. That is about $6,000 per member. The church has had 200 years of tithing and compound interest to get to this point. If used as an endowment to support 16 million people in 170+ countries that doesn&#x27;t seem too crazy.<p>A single human (not mentioning any names) having 100 billion seems crazy.
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ashton314over 5 years ago
Here is one statement that the Church of Jesus Christ put out about their finances, which addresses several of the complaints&#x2F;questions posited here:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;church-finances-and-a-growing-global-church#questions" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org&#x2F;article&#x2F;church-fina...</a><p>I don’t see any incongruity with a church that teaches its members to save to likewise have a large savings fund. It’s not like they’re just hoarding money: the Church actively donates billions of dollars to world-wide humanitarian projects. For a religion that believes in the second coming of Jesus Christ and a worldwide crisis preceding that, it only makes sense for them to save so that they can continue to aid people of and not of their faith during that time.
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Ididntdothisover 5 years ago
Seems most churches are basically real estate companies. The same is said about the Catholic Church and Scientology. Even if they lost all of their members they could keep going forever.
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anonsivalley652over 5 years ago
Meh. Moonies, Scientology and Catholic church are loaded too. Also, the IRS makes it too easy to run an Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption. Furthermore, tax exemption does actively promote religion by expressly discriminating in their economic favor. End tax exemption for magical thinking!
simonebrunozziover 5 years ago
Any discussion related to &quot;church&quot; funds makes me go back to a very interesting question: how much is the Catholic church worth today?<p>I remember a while ago spending a few hours trying to dig some useful info. Of course there&#x27;s not much online, and estimates range from 100s of B$ to something between 1 and 2 T$. Still credible.<p>The even more interesting part is how the Catholic church managed to amass this huge wealth over the course of two millenia.
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squarefootover 5 years ago
&quot;You don&#x27;t get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion&quot;.
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GnarfGnarfover 5 years ago
The Church gives back too. FamilySearch.org is a website with billions of names, where you can build your genealogy and collaborate with others who share your pedigree and provide you your ancestry from their own research.<p>The website must cost millions to operate, yet is available for free.
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kyrieeschatonover 5 years ago
Other ethnoreligious groups do this at vastly larger scale with surprisingly little publicity.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;SB894240270899870000" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;SB894240270899870000</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jta.org&#x2F;2009&#x2F;10&#x2F;27&#x2F;united-states&#x2F;jewish-charities-on-top-400-list-see-how-they-ranked" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jta.org&#x2F;2009&#x2F;10&#x2F;27&#x2F;united-states&#x2F;jewish-charitie...</a>
Iwillgetbyover 5 years ago
Question as a member. Would today be a good day to request that janitorial services be restored? Do I really need to clean the church&#x27;s toilets once a year to get to heaven?
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tonyover 5 years ago
I have LDS in my family, I have an anecdote just this week<p>I was looking up genealogy of my family and found my Aunt already added my great grandparents back in Poland. The church runs the website and offers it free of charge (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.familysearch.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.familysearch.org&#x2F;</a>), you don&#x27;t need to be a member to use it.<p>Another anecdote is Matz, creator of ruby is a member: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=bkh0gPf4Noc" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=bkh0gPf4Noc</a><p>Also they make really nice music: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=msoqtX4YAIY" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=msoqtX4YAIY</a><p>On the subject of churches asking for tithes and donations - I&#x27;ve seen various denominations do it and never felt odd about it. Back in my hometown, our church was the ones doing outreach to help the local homeless and getting them back on their feet (not the city or country, that&#x27;s for sure). This was the early 90s though.
zmixover 5 years ago
One of my favorite passages from the New Testament is this:<p><pre><code> Matthew 19:16-30 New International Version (NIV)[1] The Rich and the Kingdom of God 16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first. </code></pre> This is what comes to my mind each time when I hear about people, who call themselves Christians and their love for property.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.biblegateway.com&#x2F;passage&#x2F;?search=Matthew+19%3A16-30&amp;version=NIV" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.biblegateway.com&#x2F;passage&#x2F;?search=Matthew+19%3A16...</a>
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calibasover 5 years ago
I was told that capitalism is supposed to be opposed to ideals like theocracy, monarchy and socialism, but look at the Mormons, the Evangelicals, Saudi Arabia and China, they&#x27;re better at capitalism than most capitalists.<p>And I&#x27;m not ranting against capitalism, I&#x27;m against this fairy tale idea that capitalism somehow magically brings freedom. Especially in America, it&#x27;s become part of national pride, yet we&#x27;ve forgotten about boycotts and &quot;voting with your wallet&quot;, so the system is largely directed by blind greed and powerful special interests.
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GlenTheMachineover 5 years ago
I&#x27;m an active Mormon, and I want to try to address a couple of the ideas being discussed on this thread. My purpose is not to change anyone&#x27;s mind, nor is it to defend the LDS church in this particular case (actually I think they&#x27;ve got it quite wrong). Instead, it is to inform people what the culture of the church is like, and maybe if I&#x27;m really successful to help you understand how we can produce members like Clay Christensen on the one hand, and own 2% of Florida on the other.<p>One thing to understand about the LDS church is that the leadership is drawn from the membership, but is really <i>really</i> not representative of that membership. In order to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the highest leadership body in the church, you essentially have to have spent decades serving full-time as a church leader at lower levels. This means that all the members of the quorum are old men (and yes, they are all men - that&#x27;s another discussion). We have been accused - correctly - of being a gerontocracy.<p>There are two implications of this. One is that on social issues, the church leadership lags the membership by at least a generation, usually two. Furthermore, the upper membership of the church leads by consensus, ideally unanimous consensus. It takes a long time to get more than a dozen people on the same page about almost anything, much less something like the theological implications of homosexuality (to name one topic of the day). This goes some way to explaining why the leadership keeps getting caught flat-footed when regarding issues of transparency, LGBTQ relations, race, and so on. They aren&#x27;t the internet generation and it shows.<p>But it has a second implication as well. Church leadership often remembers and understands church history completely differently than the lay membership does. In particular, for this issue, in the early part of the 20th century the church nearly went bankrupt. They ended up calling several people with strong business backgrounds to the Quorum of the Twelve, and one of those went on to become President. They managed to put the church&#x27;s finances on a firm foundation. For obvious reasons, none of this tends to get discussed in Sunday School, and most of the membership of the church no longer remembers it. But the leadership most certainly does. In addition, it led to more and more church leaders having business backgrounds instead of pastoral care backgrounds, and as a consequence they tend to view achieving a good ROI on &quot;the Lord&#x27;s money&quot; as being a primary good. I personally disagree, but it is what it is.<p>Next, one thing to note is that none of the church leadership is personally getting rich off of tithing funds. The leadership draws a salary; that salary lets them live comfortably, but it isn&#x27;t 7 figures. Nobody lives in a mansion or flies a private jet. So, then, why are they sitting on an enormous cash pile? In my personal opinion, it isn&#x27;t primarily about the money. It&#x27;s primarily about increasing commitment to the institution. Paying tithing is &quot;faith promoting&quot;. It gives the membership skin in the game. They aren&#x27;t just showing up to a church building for two hours on Sunday. They&#x27;re actively participating in building the Kingdom of God.<p>Of course, you can take the phrase &quot;commitment to the institution&quot; two different ways, depending on your going-in assumptions. For the faithful, building the faith of the membership is a primary good and indeed a principal goal of God. For the skeptical it looks like brainwashing with a nice side benefit of extra cash in the coffers.<p>The next obvious question is, even if you&#x27;re one of the faithful, and you assume that paying tithing is indeed a good way of building a faith community, can&#x27;t they come up with ways of using the money that are more in line with Christ&#x27;s teachings than buying up 2% of Florida? And I wholeheartedly agree. There are. And, of course, owning large tracts of real estate and a mall in downtown Salt Lake City and your own private securities investment firm don&#x27;t make a lot of sense if nobody in the leadership is living like a sheik. So why not spend all of (or at least a lot more of) that cash on charitable works? Why not just go in and rebuild Haiti, or cure cancer, or something?<p>And I honestly don&#x27;t know. I go back to the leadership&#x27;s business background and their recollection of the church nearly going bankrupt, and I can sort of see it... but then I read the Sermon on the Mount, and I can&#x27;t again. I have to chalk it up to a lack of imagination, combined with a loss of pastoral care instincts in the church leadership.<p>For what it&#x27;s worth, I think it will change... eventually. The time constant of change in the LDS church is something like 20 years, so don&#x27;t expect it to happen tomorrow.<p>Finally, for those of you who have left the church and felt like it tried to take your dignity when you left, I&#x27;m sorry. My wife left, and that wasn&#x27;t our experience. Your experience with the church is almost completely due to the culture and local leadership in your local congregation, and in a lot of cases that can be quite good, but it can also be fairly toxic if you&#x27;re unlucky. I&#x27;ve experienced both, but more of the former. Of course, my experiences don&#x27;t help you if yours are different. I hope you find your peace.
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wincyover 5 years ago
So I’m officially a Mormon but am not a tithing member or active at all. I’ve asked some of my Mormon friends about this and their response is basically “well of course they are, how else would they build Zion in the city of Independence, Missouri?”. They’ve said that’s where the latter days will be spent a long time ago, and they’re preparing to make that a reality “when the time comes”.<p>They have a form of socialism called the law of consecration that Mormon society will live under (I believe they might have lived like that in Salt Lake while initially settling there). My seminary teacher, the sweetest woman you’ve ever met, got VERY upset and yelled at me when I said that it sounded like Communism. It still sounds a lot like Communism, though.<p>It’s truly amazing that they have 15 years worth of tithing for their members saved up. I have concerns though, when my friends family lives in a house where their youngest kid got lead exposure, and they’re barely getting by, tithing their 10%, but the Mormon church is amassing such wealth yet my friend’s family of five is on food stamps. Something feels off there.
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mattigamesover 5 years ago
From a business perspective a religion is one of the best things you can start, it&#x27;s free of taxes on most countries, it autoscales after convincing the first few people because it&#x27;s now their (unpaid) job to convince even more; the demand is always there because most people have a biological innate fear of death&#x2F;non-existence and just like with movies people crave a &quot;happy ending&quot;, call it paradise, heaven or else; the best part is that the children of your believers are bound to be converted to your religion so there will be no lack of money donators on the long term, and is pretty easy to teach believers to denounce anyone that tries to convince them of leaving your religion as intolerant.
metabagelover 5 years ago
I guess it’s really the First National Bank of Latter Day Saints.
rachellogan5over 5 years ago
The specific dealings of the church aside, there are some seriously concerning philosophies coming out of all this. I wrote up a little something because I&#x27;m uncomfortable with the things I&#x27;m hearing members say.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;apathofmyown.com&#x2F;saving-for-a-rainy-day-prosperity-and-the-gospel&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;apathofmyown.com&#x2F;saving-for-a-rainy-day-prosperity-a...</a>
mistrial9over 5 years ago
Is this a deep, publicity lead to attacking the tax status of the LDS in the USA, as political retribution to Sen Romney ?
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irrationalover 5 years ago
Here is a related article from Forbes.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbes.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;peterjreilly&#x2F;2020&#x2F;12&#x2F;30&#x2F;mormons-and-the-tax-law&#x2F;#7c04e4351d2c" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbes.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;peterjreilly&#x2F;2020&#x2F;12&#x2F;30&#x2F;mormons...</a>
mymythisisthisover 5 years ago
Churches shouldn&#x27;t be allowed to amass money. It screws up the economy and politics.
lr4444lrover 5 years ago
How much does the Roman Catholic Church have, especially when you appraise the artwork?
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NiekvdMaasover 5 years ago
Mirror: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;sy1Ay" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;sy1Ay</a>
neonateover 5 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.md&#x2F;sy1Ay" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.md&#x2F;sy1Ay</a>
elkosover 5 years ago
<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;sy1Ay" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;sy1Ay</a>
mythrwyover 5 years ago
Churches should go back to being churches. No reason a religious organization needs a 100 billion warchest.<p>What they are planning to eventually do with it? Buy off my local pol? Buy Utah and secede? Never mind the advantageous tax treatment enjoyed. This disturbs me.
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thecrumbover 5 years ago
Now I understand those &quot;Thank you Jesus&quot; signs.
gigatexalover 5 years ago
How is this on HN? And on the front page no less?
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ytersover 5 years ago
I&#x27;m Catholic, and I wonder whether it might be a good test of the divinity of the institution just to give away all the wealth accrued over the centuries. If it is God ordained, then it should survive in the same setting as it was founded, i.e. without any material goods. If not, then why bother with it?
cultusover 5 years ago
I cannot fathom why churches are automatically tax exempt. Regular nonprofits have to jump through all kinds of hoops to prevent these kind of shenanigans. We are supposed to have a secular government. How is it that we single out this one class of institution for special treatment?
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foobarbecueover 5 years ago
Any way around the paywall?
blacklionover 5 years ago
I&#x27;ve found why anybody outside the church should care:<p>«If the whistleblower’s claim is successful, that person could receive up to 30% of the proceeds collected by the IRS.»<p>Meh.
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jqueryover 5 years ago
So the Mormon Church has created an endowment instead of corruptly spending the tithes on trifles and graft for their leaders, in preparation to help their members when needed and continue their operations in times of scarcity. I see this as a very smart thing, not nefarious. Not any more “scandalous” or hidden than the Harvard endowment.<p>Mormons are well aware the Church uses its tithes to invest. Much of this thread’s comments are little more than ignorant and bigoted attacks on Mormons and Christians.
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dropit_sphereover 5 years ago
Honestly you guys, we really don&#x27;t care about the money, take it and fund another Uber or something if you can find a loophole that lets you do it, we live and breathe this stuff.
xrdover 5 years ago
A prior discussion of Clay Christianson mentioned how he wouldn&#x27;t play basketball on Sunday because it was the first small step that leads to larger steps (of sinning). This is a massive amount of money.<p>I&#x27;m struggling to understand if this money was gathered under the tax exempt status of churches in the US. And if this isn&#x27;t a bigger sin than playing basketball on Sunday, if you believe in sinning.<p>Remember, downvotes are just like playing basketball on Sunday...
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