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Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

367 pointsby angrygoatabout 5 years ago

36 comments

natmakaabout 5 years ago
AFAIK this is common practice in many armies, where each group obtains a predetermined amount (&#x27;dotation&#x27;) of goods (gas, ammo, clothes...) for a given period (often a year), uses whatever it needs, then an accounting process takes into account whatever wasn&#x27;t used in order to calculate the next dotation.<p>It seems consistent and efficient.<p>However it neglects human nature.<p>The soldiers want to avoid missing anything, they simply refuse to see their dotation reduced, therefore just before the end of the period they discreetly use (without any other reason) or destroy all unused goods.<p>Centralization and bureaucracy excel at breaking human will and things altogether.
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mehrdadnabout 5 years ago
Is &quot;thousands&quot; of gallons even <i>remotely</i> accurate?<p>The numbers I can find are that a 747 uses 1 gal&#x2F;second, so a <i>single</i> excess 5-hour flight is like 18,000 gallons. Even a ~45% efficiency reduction on that for more modern planes gives 10,000 gallons per excess flight. Multiply that by however many excess flights per airline per day and then by many airlines are doing this (I dunno, let&#x27;s say 5 flights for 5 airlines? though this feels generous) and suddenly you have like 250,000 gallons&#x2F;day being wasted <i>per day</i>. Multiplied by however many days they&#x27;re doing this (idk, 10? though that also sounds generous) that&#x27;s already like <i>2.5 million gallons every couple of weeks</i>.<p>Did they mean &quot;millions&quot;?
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dhdhhagvahwuabout 5 years ago
Somewhat related:<p>My father was a Navy pilot during the Cold War. He told me fuel budgets were based on the last period’s consumption. If their actual use was below what was considered their predicted amount, they would put planes on a schedule where they would take off fully loaded, fly to 30k (or whatever made sense) and dump all of their fuel into the atmosphere.<p>They would then land, empty, and repeat the process.<p>That was a shitload of avgas dropped into the atmosphere but hey, military bureaucracy...
partiallyproabout 5 years ago
The oddity I&#x27;ve personally had, is I had been planning a summer trip to Germany for the Euro 2020 tournament (assuming they don&#x27;t get cancelled.) However, I hadn&#x27;t bought plane tickets yet. Due to the virus, I figured I might get cheaper rates. The opposite has been true. The round trip went from ~$1200 up to ~$1800 in just a month or two. I&#x27;m still tracking flights, but so far I haven&#x27;t seen a good dip in pricing. I don&#x27;t know if airline pricing isn&#x27;t reacting to supply&#x2F;demand, or if there hasn&#x27;t been that big of a dip in US to Europe passenger traffic.
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dtechabout 5 years ago
This seems like a sensible rule that leads to unwanted behavior in this unforeseen case. Would make sense to grant a temporary exemption.
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sonofgodabout 5 years ago
I feel like there&#x27;s a short-term solution to this:<p>You can keep your slot and not fly the plane, as long as you pay some large percentage* of the cost of each ghost trip to the organisation that&#x27;d resell your slot. Your &#x27;flight&#x27; must be fully crewed.<p>That way the carbon isn&#x27;t emitted, (some) jobs are kept secure, and the airline recoups a little of the money they would have otherwise lost.
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chrononautabout 5 years ago
Is this article being slightly over-dramatic? I would&#x27;ve thought most of these planes carry a significant amount of cargo, which likely has increased since there are fewer passengers and more room, and there might also be more remote&#x2F;online purchasing as of recent.<p>Or is that not really a factor here?
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arbugeabout 5 years ago
The other thing to note is that an oil price crash is going on. It had started before the outbreak, was accelerated because of it, and accelerated further by the OPEC+ talks failing yesterday.<p>Cheaper aviation fuel will incentivize airlines to keep their planes in the sky.
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JoeAltmaierabout 5 years ago
Busses run empty at odd hours, because its necessary to have a regular schedule to keep customers? Not so crazy...its a fact of scheduled transportation.
emiliobumacharabout 5 years ago
Ironic. I had heard tales of the old Soviet Union about trains running empty to fill distance quotas. It was presented as the ultimate proof of how messed up their system was.
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mikhailfrancoabout 5 years ago
Airlines almost never make profits, because their revenue and main cost are strongly pro-cyclical:<p><pre><code> In the booms, they fly full, but with high fuel prices. In the recessions, they fly empty, but fuel is cheap. </code></pre> Covid-19 has devastated travel, but also dropped the oil price - still no profits.
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capkutayabout 5 years ago
Does anyone have any reliable information on the risks of flying right now? I took a couple flights this week, seemed to be status quo. People of all ages flying with no one practicing any special hygiene measures.
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skybrianabout 5 years ago
It seems like this could be fixed with a bit of economics?<p>One idea would be to have airlines pay reservation fees for unused slots, where the cost is slightly lower than flying planes in that slot.<p>I also wonder how the waste compares with Bitcoin?
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smkellatabout 5 years ago
As a halfway answer to this, I ask if specific plane types are required on these routes. If not then swap out current craft for smaller vehicles so that your pilots can maintain proficiency time while still moving cargo and the reduced number of passengers. Flying isn’t like riding a bike and pilots can’t sit in simulators ground-side indefinitely. You won’t be swapping in a Dash 8 for an A380 in every case but smaller Embraer jets in lieu of the Airbus heavies could help keep the training&#x2F;proficiency side going.
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mc32about 5 years ago
They could solve this easily by having the airports “freeze” the current quotas till things achieve some equilibrium... else this is unnecessarily wasteful.
otterleyabout 5 years ago
Source post: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thetimes.co.uk&#x2F;edition&#x2F;news&#x2F;airlines-are-flying-empty-planes-to-keep-slots-during-the-coronavirus-crisis-c8w33vzqg" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thetimes.co.uk&#x2F;edition&#x2F;news&#x2F;airlines-are-flying-...</a>
sub7about 5 years ago
Who gives a fuck about some wasted gas? If the economic freeze lasts long enough, the service sector gets decimated.<p>People will be laid off and the secondary effects of this virus will be almost as bad as the life toll.
phkahlerabout 5 years ago
Tangential question: is there a significant reduction in flights over the US? Is it my imagination or are we having more blue skies like the days after 9&#x2F;11?
blondie9xabout 5 years ago
Honestly, how can we ever beat climate change if this is the norm.
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dborehamabout 5 years ago
I&#x27;ve been on three flights (domestic US) in the past week. Pretty much normal load factor as far as I could tell.
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keanzuabout 5 years ago
<i>Under Europe&#x27;s rules, airlines operating out of the continent must continue to run 80% of their allocated slots or risk losing them to a competitor.</i><p>Risk losing their slots to a competitor? No airline is making money right now and none can afford to take over new slots to operate more flights. Your slots are completely safe - there are no buyers.
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BooneJSabout 5 years ago
Is this an excellent chance to rack up some safe miles with free upgrades to first class?
tedunangstabout 5 years ago
But no mention of which airlines or routes? What percentage of flights to Europe are empty?
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mettamageabout 5 years ago
So this is one of the reasons why startups can be competitive. I didn&#x27;t know. Now I do. I find it a very compelling reason.
sudoazaabout 5 years ago
Who needs all that pesky oxygen anyway
mathattackabout 5 years ago
The airlines that are stockpiling capacity at our expense will come hat in hand for a bailout at our expense.
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atulmadhugiriabout 5 years ago
they should do this with the 737 MAX for a while before they let passengers on them
mrandishabout 5 years ago
Well, on the positive side, at least all the 737 Max planes being grounded isn&#x27;t a factor anymore... &#x2F;s
hrdwdmrblabout 5 years ago
A non-original idea is to create a market for landing slots.
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yumrajabout 5 years ago
If planes are really empty, why can they not just pay the airport fees since I believe that is all the airports care about.<p>Or, perhaps take off, and separately land, a smaller plane such as a Cessna.
qwerty456127about 5 years ago
Why empty? Why not let actual people travel for free&#x2F;cheap? I believe there is enough people who don&#x27;t care about the virus but don&#x27;t have spare money to travel far away.
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jsjddbbwjabout 5 years ago
They are paying for the fuel. So?
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everyoneabout 5 years ago
Covid 19 is a good opportunity for extremely sensible change. Lets all stop needlessly flying, lets all work from home (if your just doing an office job anyway), lets use local products and not stuff from half way across the world.
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trickstraabout 5 years ago
So just because of some greedy business contracts the most fuel-inefficient mode of transport is running all the less efficiently. Think about it next time the airline shows you an offer to &quot;Fly green&quot; or &quot;offset your carbon footprint&quot;.
pengaruabout 5 years ago
&quot;asking for the rules to be suspended during the outbreak to prevent further environmental and economic damage&quot;<p>It&#x27;s not like having those planes full of people results in less environmental damage.
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jl2718about 5 years ago
I’ve been waiting for airlines to give up on scheduling altogether and move to JIT routing. Maintaining schedules seems fragile, and I think demand would increase dramatically if customers didn’t have to plan ahead. This will definitely happen when the industry gets disrupted by cheap autonomous and electric mini-planes, but it seems that schedules are so broken already that the biggest thing keeping up the facade are FAA rules (e.g. massively unnecessary runway intervals).
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