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Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

328 pointsby sabas_geabout 5 years ago

47 comments

nrclarkabout 5 years ago
I&#x27;ve read a bunch of ESR&#x27;s writing, and I disagree with him on an awful lot of political and social issues. Chances are we wouldn&#x27;t get along very well.<p>Tone-policing, cancel culture, and identity politics are a real problem though, and it seems like they&#x27;re getting out of hand. This is happening everywhere though - it&#x27;s not unique to the open source world at all.<p>I don&#x27;t know what the right solution is.<p>ESR and RMS (who recently got removed from the FSF) helped create the open-source movement that we have today. And they both were instrumental popularizing the hacker counter-culture that dominated Linux during its rise to prominence.<p>Would I like them as people? Maybe. Probably not. I don&#x27;t know. It seems wrong to marginalize them and cast them aside though, even if they&#x27;re socially awkward or say the wrong thing sometimes.
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chxabout 5 years ago
&gt; They have already had an alarming degree of success at this through the institution of &quot;Codes of Conduct&quot; on many projects. This has led to the expulsion of productive contributors for un-PCness; it&#x27;s not just a problem in theory.<p>Talk to me.<p>Seriously, you can not talk about this topic without talking to me because you are talking about me anyways. (And no, ESR never reached out to me.)<p>I have been, by any measure, the most prolific code contributor to the Drupal project for many years, 2005-2012 at least, maybe a year or two more even.<p>I have been banned from the Drupal project for Code Of Conduct violations in 2016.<p>It shattered me. They have been <i>right to do so</i>.<p>Relevant blog posts:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@chx&#x2F;women-of-drupal-ive-failed-you-and-i-am-sorry-fa22f37801b5" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@chx&#x2F;women-of-drupal-ive-failed-you-and-i...</a> (I just updated this with an archive.org link to a post that is now absent from its original place.)<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@chx&#x2F;a-note-from-an-open-source-lead-developer-who-got-banned-from-his-community-due-to-code-of-conduct-22d8f066ab9e" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@chx&#x2F;a-note-from-an-open-source-lead-deve...</a> this specifically deals with meritocracy and this post is the most important: you need to understand it&#x27;s not about some abstract PC-ness it&#x27;s about driving people away. Do read <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.destroyallsoftware.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2018&#x2F;a-case-study-in-not-being-a-jerk-in-open-source" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.destroyallsoftware.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;2018&#x2F;a-case-study-in...</a> about how to formulate a message without this sort of language.<p>And now I am back with a much diminished role <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@chx&#x2F;here-we-go-again-not-quite-a9d52ad93200" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@chx&#x2F;here-we-go-again-not-quite-a9d52ad93...</a> and life is good again.
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sneakabout 5 years ago
I’m torn on this.<p>On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate in groups that permit that sort of thing. There’s a real problem afoot.<p>On the other hand, esr is a real jerk. Real jerks in f&#x2F;oss are also a real problem. f&#x2F;oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind.<p>I think the solution is to continue to repeat his warning message, but also to eject him and any other bullies like him. (Including those who bully with the extreme-PC victimization hammer.)<p>One can fight excessive-SJWing and remain kind and considerate to others whilst doing so.
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aeturnumabout 5 years ago
From the previous discussion, plorkyeran[1] found the email that they suspect got ESR banned:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.opensource.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;license-discuss_lists.opensource.org&#x2F;2020-February&#x2F;021328.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.opensource.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;license-discuss_lists....</a><p>I&#x27;m not familiar with the culture or standards of the OSI but I don&#x27;t think I&#x27;d wanna participate in a community where this kind of engagement is normal, so good for them I suppose?<p>Edit: replaced plorkyeran&#x27;s account link with their post. I also now notice others posted the link, but I saw plorkyeran&#x27;s post.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=22521608" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=22521608</a>
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motohagiographyabout 5 years ago
Making creators accountable to bureaucratic values using cynical techniques like whisper campaigns and deplatforming will destroy the culture and technologies it produced.<p>FOSS was started as a divergence from corporate bureaucratic software, and now political bureaucracy is coopting and subverting it.<p>An intolerant minority is poisoning the well of creativity in multiple disciplines by subverting the organizations that support it instead of producing the tools people want and use. It&#x27;s the same crowd that is causing campus problems. These people aren&#x27;t civil or &quot;nice,&quot; they&#x27;re nihilists who understand bureaucratic power and align with whatever meaningless words achieve their end.<p>It&#x27;s not just right&#x2F;left either, this particular flavor of bureaucracy affects progressivism, but it&#x27;s a wave of the same force that hollows out creative endeavors and turns them into hosts for bureaucratic governance.<p>The only way to defeat it is individual competence and peer recognition of the excellence of their work, which people who exploit bureaucracy are necessarily incapable.<p>Rant over, but this issue is crucial to everything from net neutrality, crypto policy and backdoors, and software freedom everywhere. It cannot be allowed to be shut down.
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pcj-githubabout 5 years ago
I side with ESR, this is silly.<p>What I think the moderators should have done in this circumstance is <i>actually moderate</i>. In cases like this where things are getting heated and you&#x27;re obviously in an un-usual circumstance, schedule a <i>real conversation</i> to diffuse the situation. Slack, Zoom, Hangouts, phone call, whatever. Anything where tone and emotion can be effectively communicated.<p>Can you do this always? No. Should you do it when you&#x27;re founding member is at risk of being banned from the mailing list? Obviously, yes.<p>This is what happens when people rely too much on email.
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btillyabout 5 years ago
I am conflicted. I generally despise SJWs and identity politics, but this couldn&#x27;t have happened to a nicer person.<p>Data point. Read <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.catb.org&#x2F;esr&#x2F;writings&#x2F;sextips&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.catb.org&#x2F;esr&#x2F;writings&#x2F;sextips&#x2F;</a>.<p>Data point. It took ESR less than 15 minutes from meeting my ex in late 1999 to make an undesired pass at her. (He knew she was married to me, and was turned down.)<p>Data point. I was at a PerlMongers meeting in 2003. And happened to remark that, &quot;Someone needs to tell ESR that he&#x27;s not God&#x27;s gift to women.&quot; After the laughter died down, a woman at the table gave an account of his making an unwanted pass at her. This opened a floodgate as every woman at the table had her own similar story in turn.<p>There are many more such data points. But clearly ESR&#x27;s behavior has been a problem for a long time.<p>However I am still deeply concerned that he establishes a convenient precedent that will be applied to other, much less problematic, people.
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rvzabout 5 years ago
Once again, another person has been arrested and unfortunately cancelled by those who disagree with him over wrong-think. The OSI isn&#x27;t really doing anyone favours over banning people like ESR because they have an opposing view over changing the organisation&#x27;s policy, they just make the whole argument a one-sided echo-chamber which isn&#x27;t healthy for any org if one is concerned about some changes like ESR was.<p>The cancel-culture attitude over people who you disagree with is so dangerous to any organisation. It&#x27;s like it has become a crime on the internet these days. If someone was to say an opposing opinion with evidence towards a PC crowd, they will be locked up in the dungeon, charged with high treason and banished forever.
Uhhrrrabout 5 years ago
The enthusiasm for shaming in this mail from the thread makes my stomach turn. They seem to be either blissfully unaware or malevolently aware that it would lead to more marginalization, not less: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.opensource.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;license-discuss_lists.opensource.org&#x2F;2020-February&#x2F;021285.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.opensource.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;license-discuss_lists...</a><p>&quot;This special exception makes clear who the community considers a bad actor and initially imposes greater obligations on them than anyone else. [....] As in the Persona non Grata Preamble, this special exception serves as a clear statement on the community&#x27;s view on who is welcome in their community. Additionally, if the bad actor wants to redistribute, they have to distribute the license shaming them.&quot;
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woofie11about 5 years ago
I wanted to address one error in this article: &quot;Richard Stallman being compelled to resign from the Free Software Foundation.&quot;<p>RMS was not compelled to resign from the FSF.<p>RMS decided to resign since he felt it was for the good of the organization, and he could no longer be effective there.<p>While there was a lot of external pressure, there was zero pressure from within. It was RMS trying to do the right thing.<p>My major concern about the sequence of events there were external appearances. It seems that problem materialized.
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voldacarabout 5 years ago
&gt; It&#x27;s less bad that people sometimes got their feelings hurt than it is to institutionalize a means by which dissenting opinions are crushed under the rubric of “not nice”.<p>This is eloquently put. The &quot;fetishization of niceness&quot; he talks about is such a strange trend to watch. It started in universities but it&#x27;s like it wants to eat all of society and social interactions
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paweladamczukabout 5 years ago
It makes me sad that people are so sensitive that reading a message like the one ESR wrote drives them away from participating in projects and communities that otherwise would interest them. At least this seems to be the narrative of the &quot;PC supporters&quot; here.<p>The world is full of assholes. I think it&#x27;s better to get used to it than to shelter yourself, try to make every space safe or withdraw from interacting with other people.<p>I know I&#x27;m biased though. I am pretty thick-skinned so it&#x27;s hard to see it from the other perspective.
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shiadoabout 5 years ago
The open source community might want to think long and hard about ceding control to groups of people that proudly list their mental illnesses in their twitter bios (like actually, they really fucking do this). I predict a serious split in open source culture once people realize they have been played by narcissists seeking power.
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esjeonabout 5 years ago
TBH, cancellers, who pull this kind of &quot;cancel&quot; drama, are no better than their cancellees. They are actually worse, because they are turning a personal drama into an organizational drama, rather abruptly. Not to mention that this process mostly involves ad-hominem, cherry-picking, and non-public decisions. I mean, these people create a bigger political mess while trying to &quot;clean&quot; a tiny <i>irrelevant</i> mess. Lame. Unproductive.
JohnFenabout 5 years ago
That&#x27;s distressing, but unsurprising. I&#x27;ve been watching the OSS community engaging in slow-motion self-destruction for a while now. This sort of thing is right in line with that.
ringzeroabout 5 years ago
You know, this really sucks for me personally. Not the ban, but the sorts of things Eric appears to stand for. I read The Cathedral and the Bazaar when I was 13, and it was probably my gateway into advocating for open source. Somewhere around that age, I ended up speaking on a panel, among other OSS advocates, that successfully sold one of the local school divisions on OSS (we also helped them integrate it, on-site :). To be honest, I don’t quite remember the book or quite what I thought of it, but I know it had a profound influence on me at the time.<p>Then I see Eric write this:<p>&gt; Usually (and in this case) accompanied by a lot of bafflegab about “inclusion” and “diversity” so thay anyone who isn&#x27;t a fan of the new, censorious rules can be cast as some sort of bigot.<p>:&#x2F; Eric, we can have it both ways. I hammer it home into the engineers I’ve lead that code is the ultimate source of truth. I‘ll guide them from, for example, “do we need a mutex here” through to object code to generated assembly through to an intel reference manual, because I want to demonstrate that as engineers, we are in full control of our creations. The engineers I work with all challenge each other, and ask difficult questions, and put ideas through difficult tests. Because we’re mature adults, we can do so with language more advanced than “this is shit” (an open source favorite). It’s real easy. How about, “what happens when &lt;state concern&gt;” or “have you considered &lt;alternate approach&gt;”.<p>In fact, by soliciting <i>more</i> feedback and criticism, you are being <i>more</i> inclusive - as long as the conversations play out in a constructive way! Yes, it can be hard to teach that, but that’s why we pay people managers and technical leads to do a job.<p>Honestly, though, what sucks most of all is when you see that people who were so influential to you early in life would apparently look down on the person you are, just because you would ask to be respected in return.
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pipeworkabout 5 years ago
Or we could stop using the things made by people we cancel instead of getting rid of the people. Cancel culture is about not seeing faces anymore, not getting better or improving anything.<p>It&#x27;s ridiculous to stand atop the work of the people you bury and call yourself holy for it.
silverreadsabout 5 years ago
Anyone unaffiliated with a large commercial organization is being systematically rooted out and destroyed in the free software community. I&#x27;m honestly ashamed to be a part of this community right now. ESR has done SO MUCH for us, but doesn&#x27;t align with a position some wishy washy corporate PR departments have OK&#x27;d, so he&#x27;s OUT. There is no &quot;be nice&quot; rule in life, and doubly so for corporate America. This is disgraceful bigotry in action.
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speakingcodeabout 5 years ago
How is this reply from Josh Berkus NOT doing exactly what he accuses ESR of doing?? A directed attack on a person&#x27;s character riddled with accusations and assumptions about their motive but entirely void of response to any of the points or topics the person brought up, and a dismissive, alienating assertion that the person makes no contribution or adds any value, and their absence will not be felt?<p>Seems like an attempt to intimidate an opponent and win an argument by making the opponent afraid (or banned) to participate<p>&gt;&gt;&gt; ESR&#x27;s “sharp language” is not an attempt to persuade. It is an attempt to intimidate opponents; to “win” an argument by making others afraid to participate. Indeed, even today OSI mailing list composition is entirely folks with enough privilege to be resistant to personal attacks. That&#x27;s a sad, terrible thing. It&#x27;s not “free speech” when it&#x27;s an attempt to shout others down so that they have no voice. It&#x27;s something else entirely. Further, not one of ESR&#x27;s points is original or even original to this list. In his absence, not one of the ideas he so “colorfully” expressed will be lost. In the meantime, we&#x27;re missing the input of so many people who will not participate in OSI because of our tolerance for wholly uncivilized behavior like his posts.
classics2about 5 years ago
Not every contribution, even if useful, is worth the price the contributor demands.<p>The way to stop this is to just disregard the contributions of those who’s asking price is everyone else’s slavish obedience to their standards of conduct.
erulabsabout 5 years ago
When I was 16 or so I made my very first patch to the KDE project. It was really awful code - and I was told to kill myself due to its quality. There are absolutely bullies in FOSS - but I swapped to Gnome and called it a day. I was pretty upset, but a few months later Postfix accepted a patch so I spent 3 years as a mail administrator. My issue here is the lack of transparency - just tell us why he was banned. His essay on social politics seems non-Germaine - it wasn’t aimed at anyone. If he directly insulted harassed or threatened a contributor - absolutely kick him out - but just copy paste the text! It’s a fairly low bar to hit for those given the authority to ban someone from their own creation.
vitorbaptistaaabout 5 years ago
He writes about the reasons behind his expulsion on a post named &quot;The right to be rude&quot; [1] on his blog. This was written before he was banned.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;esr.ibiblio.org&#x2F;?p=8609" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;esr.ibiblio.org&#x2F;?p=8609</a>
milletteabout 5 years ago
Only 2 months after Perens left <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=21958105" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=21958105</a>
phaemonabout 5 years ago
So, does <i>anyone</i> know what exactly he was banned for?
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jshevekabout 5 years ago
Many people seem to believe that name calling in the form of &quot;toxic loonytoon&quot; was key to this decision.<p>Toxic people exist. We must be able to discuss our opinion that someone is toxic.<p>&quot;Loonytoon&quot; is indeed a gratuitous insult, but a very mild one. Silly, even.<p>It doesn&#x27;t make sense to me that OSI would react so strongly and dramatically to such a mild insult. I suspect there is another element to this which no one is discussing.
zenlotabout 5 years ago
&gt; Eric S Raymond: The fetishization of ‘nice’ behavior, where ‘nice’ ends up defined as being any behavior some self-appointed censor doesn&#x27;t like. Usually (and in this case) accompanied by a lot of bafflegab about “inclusion” and “diversity” so thay anyone who isn&#x27;t a fan of the new, censorious rules can be cast as some sort of bigot.<p>Pretty much represents HN community too.
moominabout 5 years ago
If you want to understand ESR, you should read this that he wrote back in 1995: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.catb.org&#x2F;~esr&#x2F;writings&#x2F;dancing.html" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.catb.org&#x2F;~esr&#x2F;writings&#x2F;dancing.html</a>
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aidenn0about 5 years ago
I do wish that the author had pushed back on ESR&#x27;s claim that removing CoC is the correct solution, particularly given the author&#x27;s claim that nothing he found in ESRs posts to the list came even close to violating the CoC.
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jshevekabout 5 years ago
ESR discusses this on his blog:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;esr.ibiblio.org&#x2F;?p=8609" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;esr.ibiblio.org&#x2F;?p=8609</a>
luordabout 5 years ago
It&#x27;s pretty pathetic that Chestek wasn&#x27;t able (or allowed) to even mention <i>who</i> was the &quot;subscriber&quot; that was banned in that email.<p>Mind you, I disagree with Raymond on quite a few things, but he&#x27;s clearly far worthier of being read (at least on OSS matters) than these Chestek and Berkus persons.
6510about 5 years ago
I thought about it and its actually funny!<p>Founding shit like this took a special kind of dinosaur, the kind who criticizes everything. The self critique being the most important kind. In an ideal world you can never have enough of that. Sadly for other people, if you have a lot of it, it is hard not to project it outwards as well. It takes a great struggle to not subject others to the same standard one holds himself to. It can be done... until codez of conduct are coined then such person just explodes - which is funny. Fuzzy little creatures then make a home in the hard shell they leave behind.
vearwhershuhabout 5 years ago
&quot;The worse, the better.&quot; -Nikolay Chernyshevsky
m0zgabout 5 years ago
And that&#x27;s why political activist infestations should be dealt with quickly and forcefully, before they get a chance to fester and take over the host.<p>ESR: &quot;The effect – the intended effect – is to diminish the prestige and autonomy of people who do the work – write the code – in favor of self-appointed tone-policers. In the process, the freedom to speak necessary truths even when the manner in which they are expressed is unpleasant is being gradually strangled.&quot;<p>Which is what happened in the end.
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contingenciesabout 5 years ago
<i>I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.</i> - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, on Voltaire&#x27;s principles
jasoneckertabout 5 years ago
This is a well-written article on many levels.<p>Unfortunately, my respect for OSI has bottomed out after reading it.
planetzeroabout 5 years ago
How ironic: A person railing against cancel culture gets cancelled by cancel culture.<p>Simply disagreeing with politically charged topics gets you a boot from many open source projects.<p>Many people that claim to want tolerance, actually want nothing less than exuberance for their own causes and have no problem painting people they disagree with as non-human, so they can harass, get them fired from their jobs or positions (canceling), and then finally silence.<p>This comes right out of the &#x27;rules for radicals&#x27; playbook.<p>If you can&#x27;t respect my freedom of speech, why should I protect yours?
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seilrseabout 5 years ago
I&#x27;m just going to leave this here. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.linux-magazine.com&#x2F;Online&#x2F;Blogs&#x2F;Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog&#x2F;The-Decline-and-Fall-of-Eric-S.-Raymond" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.linux-magazine.com&#x2F;Online&#x2F;Blogs&#x2F;Off-the-Beat-Bru...</a><p>More sources: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rationalwiki.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Eric_S._Raymond" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;rationalwiki.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Eric_S._Raymond</a>
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kazinatorabout 5 years ago
What&#x27;s going on in FOSS these days is that the world of large, multi-national corporations, as well as governments, has become dependent on FOSS for critical infrastructure.<p>These players want volunteers to do free work for them, but otherwise to be in control.<p>They can&#x27;t have some scruffy old ultra-libertarians who speak their mind running the projects; they want weaklings and pushovers.<p>To be in control means being able to inject dubious changes into code that are against the interests of the public. Crypto Backdoors, DRM, vendor-specific crap, subversions of open standards, you name it.
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itamarstabout 5 years ago
I found one of the emails (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.opensource.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;license-discuss_lists.opensource.org&#x2F;2020-February&#x2F;021328.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lists.opensource.org&#x2F;pipermail&#x2F;license-discuss_lists...</a>, at the bottom)<p>I would ban someone for that. &quot;Toxic loonytoon&quot; is not a productive way to have a discussion.<p>(Originally quoted it here but getting formatting right here is terrible).
josteinkabout 5 years ago
Does someone have a list of common, non-OSI approved software licenses for FOSS software?<p>I might want to relicense some projects I have...
armatavabout 5 years ago
Eventually darwinism will win out.<p>If the correct way is to censor certain opinions, then naturally organizations that tend to do that will outcompete organizations that don’t.<p>And if not, then not.
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davidgerardabout 5 years ago
The correct axis to consider this question along is &quot;hostile work environment&quot;.<p>Because coding is a job, and open source coding is a job these days. And you are expected to behave in a somewhat professional manner.<p>ESR&#x27;s email in any reasonable workplace would lead to a disciplinary hearing. It was a bad email that should not have been sent.
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LargoLasskhyfvabout 5 years ago
Let them have it. All. Wait until they fall. Because bikeshedding Gerrit is not fit for merit. Bitrotten incest is their best. Fork in silent stealth, away from the screaming masses. Enjoy the silence, and clear air. No obnoxious gases anymore, just code and score. While THEY have nothing to show, except screaming fits. Dumb shits!
Jareabout 5 years ago
&quot;I haven&#x27;t been here for 20 years but I&#x27;ve come to fix all your problems. I will not be nice while I do that.&quot;<p>In what possible world do you expect such a story to end any other way, regardless of the forum and people involved?
tarkin2about 5 years ago
He’s obviously a great when it comes to his contributions over the years. And he may have a point in his criticisms. But he doesn’t seem in a healthy state of mind. He seems paranoid - “make no mistake we are under attack” - angry - “loonytoon”, “ratfucking” - and the victim of a cultural attack - “journalistically-protected class“. The linked article on here about homosexual priests seems to suggest it’s been a theme for a while.
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rodgerdabout 5 years ago
Given that the free software world struggles to resolve the relatively simple moral conundrum of whether or not licenses should require people to share, adding another layer of moral and ethical concerns on top - around the idea of trying to define good and bad uses for software - is a heck of an ambitious problem; as such there&#x27;s a lot of good arguments for and against a candidate who wants the OSI to pick up that work.<p>It&#x27;s unfortunately that the esr clown show has derailed that with the ravings of a man who, quite to the contrary of one of his sayings, doesn&#x27;t contribute much code and won&#x27;t shut up; and the rather than introducing any cogent or interesting thoughts on the topic, has simply sprayed abuse around like an out-of-control honeywagon. The OSI will be a great deal better off for his absence.
cpachabout 5 years ago
Oh, lots of ESR fanboys here today! Can someone of you please explain exactly what it is that makes ESR a great hacker&#x2F;programmer?
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