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H5N1 (2013)

114 pointsby reese_johnabout 5 years ago

21 comments

_accoabout 5 years ago
The deadlier a virus is, the earlier it will trip alarm systems&#x2F;panic. And as we&#x27;ve all learned in the past few weeks, in outbreaks days matter.<p>The perfect virus is balanced: just deadly <i>enough</i>.<p>It&#x27;s possible SARS-CoV-2 hits the sweet spot.
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RobertoGabout 5 years ago
If you want to get really scared and don&#x27;t sleep tonight I suggest this presentation by John Sotos in 2019 Def Con:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=RIj0iJXTMug" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=RIj0iJXTMug</a><p>It&#x27;s really good.
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CapriciousCptlabout 5 years ago
One of Warren Buffett&#x27;s <i>primary</i> fears is weapons of mass destruction, I think since the 70s (as stated in his semi-autobiography, Snowball). During the cold-war, he put things like this (paraphrasing from memory): if there&#x27;s a 4% chance of nuclear war per annum, there&#x27;s a 70% chance of it happening over the next 30 years. If we reduce the annual chance to 2%, we reduce the 30-year chance to 45%.
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choegerabout 5 years ago
A virus that is extremely deadly, extremely contagious, and has an extremely long incubation period is quite unlikely, if not impossible. As far as I know this is a typical &quot;pick two&quot; triangle.
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Fnoordabout 5 years ago
&gt; We worry about terrorist attacks and necrotizing fasciitis, but not much about heart disease or car crashes. But in 2011, 17 US citizens worldwide died as a result of terrorism and approximately 150 from necrotizing fasciitis. There were nearly 600,000 deaths resulting from heart disease and over 32,000 from car crashes.<p>&gt; Based on current data, you are about 35,000 times more likely to die from heart disease than from a terrorist attack. So everyone smart says that we worry about terrorism way too much, and so far, they’ve been right.<p>Yes, thanks to our natural preference of exceptions, rarities, and oddities which the media fuels us with.<p>However this ignores any mitigation (and their costs) being done on these dangers. A proper risk analysis includes these.<p>&gt; But another possibility is that we engineer the perfect happiness drug, with no bad side effects, and no one wants to do anything but lay in bed and take this drug all day, sapping all ambition from the human race. There are a lot of other possibilities too, and it’s very hard to think of them because we don’t have much experience with what&#x27;s about to happen.<p>I&#x27;m not at all frightened by that because all drugs in past failed on that one. There is no up without a down.<p>On top of that, human beings want to be useful, they want to give their life purpose. Even if that involves pain. Laying all day in bed (or in quarantine) feels awful.
dangabout 5 years ago
Discussed at the time: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=6889204" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=6889204</a>
ttobbaybbobabout 5 years ago
“ But another possibility is that we engineer the perfect happiness drug, with no bad side effects, and no one wants to do anything but lay in bed and take this drug all day, sapping all ambition from the human race”<p>Someone has read Infinite Jest
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hatsunearuabout 5 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=VoqHJxf8hWQ" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=VoqHJxf8hWQ</a><p>I don&#x27;t think this is the talk I was looking for, but this covers all the points in the one I was thinking about. It&#x27;s kind of possible to get the DNA sequence of a lethal bacteria, and then pay some DNA synthesis company to make that DNA for you and package that into a living bacteria.<p>Obviously doing that will immediately trigger automated detection systems and the FBI will be scheduling a surprise birthday party for you.... but who knows how secure that system is.
leashlessabout 5 years ago
<a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;resiliencemaps.org" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;resiliencemaps.org</a> is a bunch of pandemic flu resources from the H5N1 days - planning specifically for a highly contagious mutation.<p>Gets into food security etc. It was intended as a toolkit for scenario planners and public health officials. See also guptaoption.com&#x2F;6.SPRS.php and mattereum.com&#x2F;CSR (coronavirus work.)
mirekrusinabout 5 years ago
This is, indeed, scary. Now we have global baseline. During pre-covid times self-isolating&#x2F;self-sufficient communities were crazy-labelled - maybe that&#x27;s going to change now. Maybe the world, as we know it (during our livetimes), will actually change in very noticable ways.<p>Pulling off global social distancing is the only short term, generic tool it seems, ie. next virus may not require ventilators to help at all so securing that is not a solution.<p>Long incubation period is really scary as it renders social distancing useless (too late to be effective); the only survivors are natural survivors (immune system finding it&#x27;s way to create antibodies) and isolated communities. Or Mars collonies, maybe.
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artursapekabout 5 years ago
I don&#x27;t think these fears of terrorism or flesh-eating bacteria are irrational.<p>The underlying thread here is about control. You can control your diet and lifestyle, and therefore your chances of dying from heart disease. You can&#x27;t control whether that guy with the backpack on the subway car is carrying a bomb.<p>It&#x27;s the same reason why people are way more afraid of flying than driving despite the statistics saying that driving kills way more people. If you or your spouse is behind the wheel, you feel more in control.<p>The whole point of fear is it focuses on unexpected enemies, like predators.
esturkabout 5 years ago
I think influential people tend to be scared of these rare events simply because those are the ones that actually can effect them. Based on the assumption that influential people tend to be wealth, they have the money to insulate themselves from small incidents but not big crisis. I do not believe Sam Altman has been poor before to truly understand that this pandemic is no different than most people living day to day because any accident can ruin them.
nojvekabout 5 years ago
The perfect deadly virus would have to be some sort of a time bomb virus. Everyone thinks it’s common flu and is spread to 90% of humans. Couple of years later it undergoes metamorphosis and turns into lethal suffocating or heart attacks. It would be almost impossible to control this.<p>Bio weapons are perhaps the nastiest of any weapon. Someone smart enough could make it in a lab and it could bring the entire globe to its knees.
Softcadburyabout 5 years ago
There&#x27;s an interesting story about h1n1 in France. At the time it appeared, the French government took it really seriously and spent 2 billions to buy masks and vaccines. Fortunately the virus didn&#x27;t spread, but the government&#x27;s reaction was highly criticized.<p>For the covid19, the reaction was too slow, hospitals now struggle to get masks and I&#x27;m convinced that&#x27;s because they didn&#x27;t want to reproduce the h1n1 over reaction...<p>On the opposite, you have the South Korea who was highly prepared with masks and protocols, apparently thanks to their experience with Mers virus.<p>Let&#x27;s hope that, thanks to covid19, a lot of countries will take strict measures, like South Korea before and that a virus like h5n1 won&#x27;t wipe half of the world.
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pelasacoabout 5 years ago
In another interview, the Scientist Ron Fouchier, said: &quot;that GOF experiments are the only way to learn crucial information on what makes a flu virus a pandemic candidate.&quot;, I would like to know if he was able to predict COVID-19 and how he is really using his gained knowledge on H5N1 to fight COVID-19?
jostmeyabout 5 years ago
We need a pandemic detection system, which is what I get out this blog post.
bionhowardabout 5 years ago
It wouldn’t be surprising for nCoV to evolve now since it has so many opportunities. For example, a strain which breaks the viral proofreading mechanism would dramatically increase the diversity of new strains. That would be bad because a more diverse Coronavirus would become a moving target for therapies, and thus, an endemic disease, exponentially more lethal than flu. Just imagine the economic impact if this became an annual event. We’d have to get much better at treatment and distancing<p>We designed a gene therapy for Covid19 but have yet to find a great manufacturing partner; if anyone knows someone who can do cGMP manufacturing of AAV, please let me know via email at bion at bitpharma dot com
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magicroot75about 5 years ago
This article is about bioterrorist threats. It still underplays the idea of a natural pandemic as being &quot;unlikely to occur in nature.&quot;
baqabout 5 years ago
So with the advent of CRISPR is the only thing stopping a particularly sociopathic entrepreneur from creating a virus+vaccine combo in a Deus Ex scenario... ethics of lab technicians doing gene splicing? What could possibly go wrong...?
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deepaksurtiabout 5 years ago
&gt;&gt; a virus that spreads extremely easily, has greater than 50% mortality, and has an incubation period of several weeks? ... without the world having time to prepare, could wipe out more than half the population in a matter of months.<p>I am not sure if Sam or anyone would have expected this to happen in the near future?
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cryptonectorabout 5 years ago
&gt; For whatever reason, we seem to be wired to overweight the risk of the dramatic, scary, but very unlikely and underweight the risk of the mundane, familiar, and probable.<p>Two things. One, we do not sufficiently emphasize pandemics&#x2F;epidemics -- this is partly because these things have been fairly rare and rarely very bad, and we have a way of focusing on what we&#x27;re able to be aware of. As a result we get very upset when rare, very noticeable events happen, but we don&#x27;t take notice of the risk of their happening when... they&#x27;re not happening.<p>Second, we do very much care about <i>intent</i>. Nobody doubts that if Al-Qaeda had been able to steal and use nuclear weapons, they would have -- their intent was evil, and that meant they needed to be taken care of. As long terrorists can only kill a few, we can ignore them, but given their intent is to kill many, we can&#x27;t ignore them entirely. Regarding car crashes and other accidents, the rates of fatalities per-mile traveled and such have been going down, and can be expected to go down further as technology progresses -- and we do invest in improving technology to make our roads and cars safer.<p>Fatalities from terrorism and fatalities from traffic accidents are simply not comparable -- they&#x27;re apples and oranges. Accident fatalities won&#x27;t spike, but terrorism fatalities are liable to spike intolerably at any moment. The difference is intent: no one intends to make traffic accidents occur, but there are people who intend to kill many other people. Perhaps in the long run both obey statistical distributions, just different ones, but for the human psyche, intent counts.<p>Perhaps we shouldn&#x27;t care about intent. Or perhaps we should focus on limiting the capabilities of those with evil intent -- but this is not much different than saying we must continue to put effort into hunting terrorists.<p>Anyone making the traffic accident vs. terrorism comparison needs to acknowledge the intent distinction if they are to be taken seriously. They almost never do though.<p>&gt; Also in 2011, some researchers figured out how to reengineer H5N1—avian influenza virus—to make it much scarier by causing five mutations at the same time that all together made the virus both easy to spread and quite lethal. These five mutations could all occur in nature, but it’d be unlikely in the same copy of the virus. I have no doubt that the media overstated the danger, but it’s still worth thinking about.<p>Is it possible to overstate the danger of engineered pathogens? All that&#x27;s needed for that to lead to catastrophe, besides engineering, is <i>intent</i>, or accidental release. Naturally occurring pathogens are acts of god. Engineered pathogens are not -- their use against populations certainly isn&#x27;t, even if resulting from lab accidents.<p>If an engineered pathogen could kill millions, and all that&#x27;s missing is intent, then engineered pathogens are as problematic as nuclear weapons. More problematic than nuclear weapons, in fact, because the technology needed to engineer pathogens is harder to control, easier to come by &#x2F; develop, etc. The only mitigation is the -admittedly massive- risk to the user of having the pathogen hit them too.<p>Pathogen engineering comes with a number of advantages to developing and using them, and just one disadvantage:<p>- adv.: cheap, difficult to control against proliferation - adv.: plausible deniability, allowing anonymous use - disadv.: can boomerang on the user<p>The disadvantage is the strongest reason to believe that covid-19 wasn&#x27;t both, engineered <i>and</i> released with intent. And if it was, it has boomeranged.<p>That one disadvantage can be negated with time by also developing vaccines and treatments ahead of use. But that wouldn&#x27;t work for a state actor, as that would erase plausible deniability and thus invite counter-attacks if used. Fortunately, developing vaccines and treatments gets costly enough to put it beyond a terrorist group&#x27;s means, but then, a suicidal terrorist might use it anyways.<p>But even if bioweapons are unlikely to be used with intent, doesn&#x27;t mean that they aren&#x27;t worth worrying about. Lab accidents are a possibility, thus something to worry about.<p>Going back to the first point above, there really are many threats to worry about, and we can&#x27;t all worry equally about all of them. This is why we have a national security apparatus: so we can focus sufficient resources on each threat. Even if the national security apparatus here, in the U.S., had done everything right as to pandemics, they would have to have been doing it for many years.<p>One thing we can count on is the national security apparatus taking pandemics much more seriously going forwards, though that will be at the risk of preparing to fight yesterday&#x27;s war, ignoring the risk that tomorrow&#x27;s threat may look much different. If that happens, it will be because humans have a hard time planning against the unknown or the unlikely.<p>Before 9&#x2F;11 there were people who thought that passenger airplane attacks were a threat, but those were not taken seriously. We see this over and over. I wouldn&#x27;t bet on anyone being particularly readier for the next big problem than we were in this case, in the case of Katrina, in the case of 9&#x2F;11, in 1918, in 1941, etc.