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What is the engineering hiring bar?

145 pointsby leenyabout 5 years ago

25 comments

gregdoesitabout 5 years ago
The article could be a_lot_ more concise. Here’s what I got out of it as the takeaway:<p>&gt; And that helps us understand why Recursive Cactus spends so much time practicing. He’s training himself partially because his current company isn’t developing his skills.<p>Exactly. Recursive Calculus wants a better job, (a lot) higher pay, a better environment. So he spends time prepping for this.<p>And companies who can offer all of this, and get a lot of interest already, they are selective, minimising false positives in the hiring process. They expect working code in the coding challenge, a good attitude and some other skills like demonstrating decent systems design. Recursive Calculus also preps so much as his interview process to his current place was different and he _really_ wants to nail these interviews, get a bunch of offers and get into a bidding war before saying bye to his current workplace he’d love to leave for something better.<p>There wasn’t really any actionable thing in this article that I found, or applicable advice. The end.
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Ididntdothisabout 5 years ago
I had a conversation with a fellow engineer and we pretty much concluded that our current company would not hire us with our current resumes if we had to go through the interviewing process. And we are generally viewed as some of the higher performers. I bet the same is true for a lot of other companies.
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carapaceabout 5 years ago
This is so silly. Here&#x27;s teh secret: your programming ability is set <i>genetically</i> by how much <i>Yeti blood</i> you have in your ancestry. Yeti half-breeds recognize each other (often unconsciously) by smell. That&#x27;s why some people can get programming jobs hella easily while others just can&#x27;t even after strenuous training. Check your feet. If your second toe isn&#x27;t longer than your big toe you&#x27;re screwed. Give it up. You might as well go get an MBA or something.
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sxpabout 5 years ago
The section in that article about &#x27;Defining “Intelligence”&#x27; is similar to a previous discussion on HN about whether a FAANG interview is just &quot;an IQ test which is disguised as a relevant skills test for legal reasons&quot;. [1] This article does a good job of supporting that claim. Theoretically, both IQ tests &amp; FAANG interviews test for whatever &quot;innate intelligence&quot;, but in practice, both of them can be gamed by grinding brainteasers &amp; leetcode respectively.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=22705057" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=22705057</a>
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thaniriabout 5 years ago
I applied to a new grad production engineering job at Facebook recently.<p>I probably did about 80 leetcode puzzles, let&#x27;s just assume that is 1 hour per puzzle. So 80 hours of leetcode puzzles.<p>In addition, 10 hours were spent reviewing my networking trivia (focused on layer 2&#x2F;3&#x2F;4 and HTTP).<p>The PE recruiter at the company also provided a study guide packet. I elected to sink about 10-20 hours into studying the Linux troubleshooting and finding some common questions off of Glassdoor to understand the type of things they will be asking.<p>Finally I tried to review some system design stuff (but as a juniour in this industry didn&#x27;t really know how) Just followed some study guides from the system-design-primer on Github. Probably 5 hours dedicated to this.<p>Let&#x27;s just round it to about 100 hours of prep in about a month and a half. While juggling a full time job as a devops engineer.<p>Afterwards I was rejected :)<p>Ultimately I wasn&#x27;t surprised I was rejected. I was under the impression that I needed to pass all 7 of the interviews in order to get an offer (2 phone screens, 5 on site.) I know for sure I failed the system design interview question HARD. Like irredeemably hard. Regardless of my performances in my other interviews, I know I definitely did a good job in my network and OS interviews but it doesn&#x27;t matter.<p>I do wish that companies would provide a feedback system. I would love to know where they thought I was weak so that I can improve upon that later. But there is nothing beyond &quot;we decided to pursue other candidates.&quot;<p>Here&#x27;s the crazy thing, though. It isn&#x27;t even a question in my mind that I should try again if another FAANG recruiter reaches out to me. I will sink another 200 hours if necessary to pass their interviews because of what it represents to achieve getting hired at such a firm. There&#x27;s prestige, salary, and quality of life that just can&#x27;t be matched by any other tech companies.
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nimbiusabout 5 years ago
this is fine, so long as you&#x27;re looking to get hired by a megacorp (fine,faang.) but for most people theres a point of diminishing returns. Do you want to spend six months to a year out of your life drilling for a $10k raise working for a company that works you like a rented mule anyhow, or do you settle with your present quality of life and conclude 70k is enough to do whatever you wanted to reasonably do anyway.<p>Then theres the variable of google et. al. and their random eleven-round interviews. Are you patient enough to sit through questions like &quot;how many kegs of beer on a schoolbus&quot; and &quot;how to build a datacenter on the moon&quot; from some grinning techbro only to be told youre re-invited to another round of interviews?<p>Finally, age. You can cram and cram but if youre over 50 your chances of building that moon datacenter are better than getting hired.
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ng12about 5 years ago
I can usually spot the candidates who are leetcode junkies. This is why I direct our interviews to be as pragmatic as possible. Most of our question bank comes from actual code one of our devs had to implement.<p>I&#x27;m fairly confident that if you&#x27;ve studied hard enough to solve these problems easier the studying just paid off by making you a better developer.
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overgardabout 5 years ago
I feel like giving people a decent coding project is, at the moment anyway, the best approach. If I&#x27;m interviewing someone I really just want to see these things: what their code is like, what their final result looks like (if there&#x27;s room for creativity -and there should be), how they got there (revision history). And then in the interview portion I just want to get a sense of their personality and their decision making process on the project. It&#x27;s not perfect but it gives a sense of if they can finish a likely task, and if they would be easy or hard to work with.<p>Btw, none of that involves puzzles or trying to guess their IQ. If your company is like google in 1998 maybe you care about that, but chances are you need someone to build something relatively straightforward, not invent PageRank. Honestly having a super genius on board might be bad if you&#x27;re not solving a truly hard problem - they might get bored and check out.<p>It&#x27;s a valid complaint that these projects can take time, but job searching is pretty time consuming anyway, and joining the wrong company or hiring the wrong person is way more so.
Scea91about 5 years ago
So I got contacted by Facebook London about 2 weeks ago. The job description sounded quite interesting, but when the recruiter described the interview process and actually sent me a deck with resources for preparation for coding interview he lost me.<p>The reason is that I am absolutely satisfied with my current job and decided that I don&#x27;t want to bother at this time with preparation for an interview. Maybe I would pass it without prep, but I would not feel comfortable showing up without putting any time in.<p>I get a feeling that process as this somehow does not select for top performers that are already working on exciting stuff.
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jarielabout 5 years ago
The solution: dump (popular) algorithms!<p>All whiteboard problems should be fairly novel and &#x27;not possible to practice&#x27; or else you are testing their preparation, not their ability.<p>(Admittedly, preparation is a measure of something, and &#x27;conquering all algorithms&#x27; is a measure of something.)<p>But neither are the measure you&#x27;re looking for.<p>And &#x27;General IQ&#x27; is not only it either.<p>The ability to decipher problems, understand requirements, grasp tradeoffs, translate that into reasonably clean code, keep possibly complex systems in your head, work with others and maintain a positive disposition.<p>Finally, the elephant in the room is &#x27;perceived confidence&#x27;. It took me 30 years at least to be able to understand how well a problem was communicated, and how good the solution actually is.<p>Someone who is confident, who &#x27;looks the part&#x27;, who can communicate the issue clearly ... may still have a mediocre problem.<p>The weird, lacking in self-awareness, a shy-but-blunt nerd who may be totally unsure of themselves, sweaty palms ... may possibly have just as great as a solution.<p>We are hard-wired to see &#x27;patterns&#x27; and our intuition misguides is significantly on this issue.<p>It&#x27;s a lot of hard work to try to ignore &#x27;the bad parts&#x27; of one&#x27;s own intuition while keeping the &#x27;good parts&#x27;.<p>One of the solutions to this literally is data. Instead of &#x27;feeling&#x27; how they did, a checklist of things might help us structure in our minds how truly well something was accomplished.<p>And of course, we can&#x27;t ignore the fact that communicating matters, it just matters differently in different contexts.
xenihnabout 5 years ago
The spread is insane. I have interviewed at one FAANG three times within the same year (this one does not have cooldowns). On-site DS&amp;A question difficulty capped at two-sum with no twist for the most recent one (extremely easy if you have seen it before, still doable for most people if they haven&#x27;t), binary tree LCA (impossible within 30 minutes if you haven&#x27;t studied binary trees, moderate if you have but have never attempted&#x2F;seen LCA, easy if you have) for the first one, and a keypad DP problem (hard for anyone who hasn&#x27;t practiced DP imo) for the middle one.<p>There are people who are extremely good at DS&amp;A interviews and can reliably pass almost any loop at any FAANG company that sticks to conventions. But I think most people don&#x27;t fall into that group, and it generally comes down to luck and not getting a single question that stumps you.
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dmoyabout 5 years ago
My hiring bar (for coding) has gotten easier the more I interview (as the interviewer). I don&#x27;t ask any kind of super tricky algo questions, because the signal you get from those tends to be closer to &quot;is the candidate familiar with this specific area of algorithms&quot; than anything else. I don&#x27;t ask any questions that take a really good candidate more than 20-30 minutes to solve, because then I can&#x27;t scale the question down. You can always scale a question up.<p>I used to ask questions that were fairly close to what you find on leetcode now, but the signal isn&#x27;t great anymore. It used to be good at identifying candidates who can quickly figure out the right tools to solve a given problem, but now it ends up identifying candidates who spent a lot of time on leetcode.<p>Now I mostly ask questions that involve<p>* transforming some data using a less than stellar API (using a REALLY simple transformation)<p>* holding a bit of state to accomplish the above transformation<p>* throwing a few edge case wrenches at the candidate<p>And the last part is technically baked into the question - a candidate who can fully grok the state could determine all of the edge cases on their own. But even if they don&#x27;t I&#x27;ll explain them and see how the candidate handles. &#x27;cus in the real world we have unit tests, and I don&#x27;t expect TC to really figure out all the edge cases in 30 minutes. A couple of them, sure. And they better be able to handle them once pointed out.<p>Candidate forgets that a java collection can have null because you can&#x27;t have a List of primitives? That literally doesn&#x27;t go into my feedback at all (and depending on how recently I&#x27;ve written java, I might have forgotten myself). Candidate writes a function that doesn&#x27;t compile because there&#x27;s no return statement? I&#x27;ll point it out, maybe make a note, but don&#x27;t really hold it against them because we write code in IDEs. Candidate spends 10 minutes trying to figure out how to force a single variable to do the job of three different variables, despite increasingly desperate hints to just store more local data? Yea that might go poorly in feedback.<p>But yes, I expect a candidate to be able to write 10 lines of code to answer a data transformation in 30-45 minutes. And yes, when either they figure out or I point out a couple of edge cases, I expect that 10 lines to not morph into a congealed mass of horror that cause their original solution to break.
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DeathArrowabout 5 years ago
I don&#x27;t get it why people try very hard to get a job at FAANGs. Could it be because they would feel like they would become part of an elite, could it be because that once they have a FAANG company in their resume, they won&#x27;t have to pass lengthy and stressful interviewing processes anymore and won&#x27;t have to job hunt.<p>But there are many other software engineering jobs with at least as interesting problems to solve, at least as good payment, at least as good job security while being less stressful.<p>For me, hunting specifically a job at FAANG doesn&#x27;t pay off.<p>I&#x27;d accept any job that meets my criteria of what I have to do, payment and stress level.
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dudulabout 5 years ago
I don&#x27;t have a study to back it up, just my empirical observations over the past 12 years, but I&#x27;m kind of convinced that hiring engineers almost randomly (let&#x27;s say they can speak clearly and write a fizzbuzz) would have almost the same outcome as designing and implementing these complicated and convoluted hiring processes.<p>I have yet to work with the mythical &quot;really really bad engineer that completely screw up your project and does it in such a stealthy way that you don&#x27;t even fire them before it&#x27;s too late&quot;.
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deeblering4about 5 years ago
&gt; 7:00pm – 7:30pm Hang out with wife<p>Sorry, you lost me immediately. As a married person this is not a realistic typical schedule if you wish to stay married.
frozenlettuceabout 5 years ago
Recently I had two different online testes where a good chunk of the questions were about Javascript generators - a feature that is very hard to see in the wild. Thankfully I&#x27;m already employed, but this was not the case I would lose a good amount of time studying this subject in depth (only to not use it later)
jupedabout 5 years ago
The conceit that it&#x27;s a &quot;bar&quot; of any kind is what allows it to continue.
faanginginthereabout 5 years ago
After 9 years at the same company, I left my job at the beginning of January 2020 to dedicate myself to leetcoding and interview practicing in the hope of getting hired at a FAANG, more specifically Google.<p>I really started dedicating all my time to interviewing January 1st.<p>It is now March 31st and I am now abandoning the idea of getting hired at a FAANG, or any larger-sized startup and will target early startups with lower entry bar.<p>Yesterday I had my “virtual on-site” interview with Google and it went poorly.<p>The 1st interview was behavioral and I think it went fine, but I’m not sure the interviewer was thrilled.<p>The 2nd interview was horrible. First, the interviewer had a bad internet connection which made it hard to understand her (I asked her to turn off her video to help, which she did), 2nd she jumped immediately to the problem without introducing herself or anything which made it feel like she was in a rush, 3rd she simply started reciting her problem statement, which was hard to make sense of because of her bad internet connection. I asked her if we could write it down in the shared google doc, so she proceeded to copy&#x2F;paste a blob of text that seemed to be taken from the _middle of a problem statement_. It had no context and no actual instruction like “write a function that will calculate x and y”. My NDA unfortunately prevents me from sharing the actual thing. Because of this, I did not know what I was supposed to do. I asked her multiple times “so, should I write a function to do this and this?” and she kept reciting the ambiguous problem statement over and over in an impatient and dismissive manner. I felt completely out of place. Then when I finally started making a little bit of progress on guessing what she actually wanted me to do, I started hearing background noise of someone chopping vegetables, and moving things around: extremely distracting. I would ask her specific questions and from her lag in answering and her short 2 words answers I just know she wasn’t paying attention. It took all the strength in me to not tell her how disrespectful it felt to be interviewing with someone that clearly did not want to be here and wasn’t paying attention. At the end of the interview I thanked her a lot, smiled big and swallowed my pride.<p>I left for our 1 hour break and took a walk to reset my emotions and tell myself that the interview could still go well and that I still had my chances.<p>The 3rd interview went well. The interviewer had a good connection, a good mic, was understandable, introduced himself and even said “before we start, I want to remind you that if one of your interviews went bad, don’t sweat it, it’s all fine. We’re here to have a conversation. I’m not looking for a right or wrong answer, I just want to see your thought process”. It took him literally 2 minutes to set me up for success. He then proceeded to give me a problem statement, with some context around it, and we started proceeding to _have a real conversation_. I wrote code that, according to my interviewer, compiled correctly and was close to the actual code it was based off of. I left this interview feeling good<p>4th interview went bad. Interviewer was 10 minutes late and had a bad connection, but aside from that introduced himself correctly, gave me a clear problem statement and although did not talked much at all during the interview, he did give me a few hints here and there. The reason I failed is that I couldn’t solve a simple algorithm and started panicking internally. All on me. I left the interview hoping the next one would go better.<p>5th (and last) interview went meh. It was a system design interview. I was hoping to be having a conversation with the interviewer but he just was speaking much at all.<p>I hung up and cried a little. It’s really hard emotionally to accept this.<p>Before my Google interviewed I got rejected by AirBnB, Twitter told me they don’t think a senior role is adequate and will see if they have “mid-level” roles (which is totally fine, but I’m left wondering if that’s not just a way of rejecting my candidacy), and I cancelled Facebook because what Airbnb taught me is that I’m just not ready. That’s not a lot of interviews you’ll tell me, but I spent _months_ preparing.<p>Because I know my algorithm and problem solving skills are lesser, I spent hours studying on leetcode, reading an operating systems book, reviewed “cracking the coding interview”, reviewed “introduction to algorithms”, re-read some chapters of “TCP&#x2F;IP illustrated”, spent hours watching system design videos, hours watching algorithm videos. I spent $5000 on an interviewing&#x2F;algorithm bootcamp.<p>I know that I am not a bad engineer. I started programming at 10 years old (I’m 33), taught myself VB, C and C++ (though I haven’t coded in these for many years now). Computers have been my life’s passion. I designed my former’s company infrastructure and made it scalable and resilient. I was a major influencer in my team and my coworkers trusted me. I know I’m a good system administrator; I might be less good a developer but I know how to code well; I know how to influence my coworker into following best practices, reading&#x2F;writing documentation, being security conscious; I stay informed on the latest trends, I try new technologies, learn new languages, not even out of necessity but because that’s what I love.<p>But none of this seems to be enough.<p>And maybe it really isn’t for a company like Google. And maybe I wouldn’t be successful at Google if they hired me.<p>What I know is that these past 3 months have left me with little confidence about my skills and just wondering if I’m cut out for this. I’m trying hard to not feel defeated, but damn, that hiring bar in FAANG interviews can really make you feel like crap.
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drewcooabout 5 years ago
Actual professional engineers don&#x27;t have strange, gamified interviews to guess someone&#x27;s skill level.<p>Is all of this modelling the problem of the hiring bar or training to beat it really solving the right problem? Do any of the solutions to this constructed problem actually work reliably or are they just elevator close buttons, frobs that may not really function but provide a sense of control?
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bdcravensabout 5 years ago
The best kind of practice is the kind you get paid for. Freelance work (if your current contract permits it) always has opportunities to stretch your legs. Also, I think <i>most</i> companies would prefer breadth of skills over someone who knows the answer to a gee whiz algorithm. Put a different way, companies prefer someone who is valuable over someone who is &quot;smart&quot;.
solidistabout 5 years ago
The word &quot;experience&quot; only appears twice in the 26-minute read.
christiansakaiabout 5 years ago
Holy cow, is Recursive Cactus me? Lol I can totally relate. And I believe a lot of people on cscareerquestions subreddit and people at Leetcode forum can relate. 100%? Accurate.<p>Also, just to give a context of the hiring bar these days. The FAANG companies coding question is no longer on Easy even on phone interview. Expect at minimum 2 Medium difficulty questions in a phone interview that need to be able to be solved in optimal space time complexity in under 45 mins (or more precisely, under 20 mins each because if the first question is not solvable under 20 mins then they will skip that and you already failed).<p>So for those FAANG engineers that were able to get in early, whether by acquihire, by diversity hire, by luck, by normal hire. Stay there as long as you can especially in today’s times. Because once you quit you’ll experience a rude awakening for getting right back in, unless those companies waive you in because you’ve been in before.<p>And yea, I’m talking for both fresh graduates as well. There are instances where a fresh graduate get 4 out of 5 hard leetcode questions in an onsite. Yea, its that crazy.<p>I&#x27;m strictly speaking from personal experience and by reading subreddit cscareerquestions and Leetcode forum on people&#x27;s experiences.<p>So at this point, a lot of people (including me) already solved hundreds of Leetcode questions, and still got rejected. So this is now a luck of the draw game, apply to those companies every year (because once you get rejected then you are not allowed to apply within a year), one day you will get your lucky strike.<p>One way to maximize your luck if you really want to get in, assuming that you are not lucky, not part of diversity hire, not part of acquihire: - internship - contract work<p>Damn I have to EDIT so many times lol. But due to this Leetcode style training that a lot of us are going through, we literally have less time to learn anything else, for example, learning new libraries, new frameworks. I personally think learning new frameworks or libraries are kinda dumb because it is easy to pick up on the job anyway, but nevertheless when you want to look for a job you need these on your resume. Say you only know REST but now companies want gRPC and Protobuf then you gotta learn those on the side. Assuming that you are a normal working person with hobbies, families, responsibilities, activities on the side you need to pick your choices carefully.<p>So this has an interesting result. The more you prepare for FAANG and doing Leetcode style questions, the less time you prepare for mid-tier companies and the lesser the chance you will get a better offer from them. So you have to go ALL IN one way, can&#x27;t go half ass one way or the other.
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presidentabout 5 years ago
I have always thought maybe there should be a path for people who are terrible at coding interviews but are confident in their abilities? Perhaps maybe a pass on the interview but then you work provisionally for little to no pay at first until after a discretionary period where they can decide whether they want to keep you or not.
tomgpabout 5 years ago
&gt; 4:00pm – 7:00pm Dinner with wife &amp; friends<p>Do people really eat dinner at this time on the weekend? What about on weekdays; you have 30 mins to &#x27;hang out with wife&#x27; then it&#x27;s meditation and algorithm practice till bed time? A little depressing.
introvert0about 5 years ago
Apologies in advance for being harsh, but are you a member in order of your state association of engineers, did you pass the FE exam?, was your school accredited to grant engineering diplomas?<p>If the answer is not, please do not call yourself engineer
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