They are showing so much respect and care for their customers that is almost unbelievable.<p>Kudos to their will to analyze and also document about a single problem so thoroughly.<p>I never bought a Bose product before, but reading this honestly makes me think about it...<p>If any company would cost a premium for being as careful as they are, I would definitely pay for it.
As a researcher in acoustics (another field though) this post illustrates beautifully the difficulties of the field: how each of us feels different about sound (psychoacoustics), how even minute mechanical details have a noticeable impact on acoustic performance...<p>FWIW I can confirm that this post shows great expertise in acoustic engineering, from the focus on the customer interviews/fieldwork (it is still very difficult to predict through synthetic tests in the lab how actual human will rate sounds) to the paired acoustic tests (we suck at comparing more than two sounds, we need pairing like in the ophthalmologist), the use of a critical listener, etc.
Why do the newer versions of these have to have freaking Alexa bundled with them. It's like a giant skid mark on an otherwise premium product. Bose does have the best noise cancelling functionality, but I'm simply never going to buy anything with Alexa, Cortana, or whatever Google's version of a voice assistant is paired to it. I deal with Siri crapware because Apple's incentives are slightly better aligned than these other advertising companies, but even that I hate and would get rid of in an instant if possible.
While this is great news for my QC 35's, the newer Bose 700's have me extremely worried for the future of their devices.<p>Anyone who puts non-tactile touch controls on _headphones_ shouldn't be allowed to design electronics interfaces ever again.<p>The QC35 had it right with physical controls.
My goodness. I've been following this issue, and avoiding upgrading my firmware, for about two years now. But this is so incredibly thorough and shows just how seriously they took these concerns, and validating, or invalidating them.<p>They really dug deep here, and I respect them all the more for it. I've had really good experiences with Bose products, even though they're priced at a slight premium. They're just VERY high quality.
SelfVoice is the problem.<p>> In several conversations with customers, there was some confusion about noise cancellation function during a phone call or other Bluetooth HFP connection.<p>Yeah, because having multiple bluetooth profiles, one of which has good cancellation and one of which doesn't due to SelfVoice is disastrous UX.<p>Anything that perturbs the bluetooth settings on sound-producing devices and switches the default connected endpoint is going to trigger a severe degradation of the headphones' noise cancellation and noise floor. There is no light, or button, or obvious cue to indicate that the device is in a special state. Fixing the problem requires understanding this weird, hidden behavior (strike one) and dealing with bluetooth settings (strike two) on a device that isn't the headphone (strike three).<p>I am very happy to hear that they are doing something about it, because Windows has recently started clearing my repeated efforts to disable the SelfVoice endpoint. Even though I understand the problem completely (which is always the biggest hurdle) dealing with it has recently become a severe enough hassle that I've been considering ditching the Bose on account of it.
Ah.. QC35 I and QC35 II, the headphones that won't turn off, but Bose refuses to make it right for the users:<p><a href="https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/QC-35-I-is-Turning-On-By-Itself/td-p/106140" rel="nofollow">https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/QC-35...</a><p>Note, the "solution" is buy new headphones if yours are our out of warranty.<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be</a>
Impressive report, however their customer support is terrible for such premium products. Have bought 3 sets of headphones over the last 6 years (2xQC25 and 1xQC35).<p>Each pair of headphones starts to have audio issues right after the 2 year mark, usually resulting in the total loss of audio in one ear, and their support channels will only advise you to buy a new pair.<p>Have switched to the competitor - Sony WH-1000XM3. So far so good.<p>But really disappointed by the quality and longevity of Bose's premium products.<p>Won't buy again, and for such a serious issue to take this much effort for Bose to allow firmware downgrades just confirms that for me.
From the comments I see the QC35 is not very durable pair of headphones. I would understand if the price tag would be under 100 euros, but the QC35's are quite expensive. And if they last only a couple of years, I wouldn't count that progress at all!<p>There are great headphone manufacturers, such as Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, Focal and Grado, who make excellent studio level headphones that can easily last for decades in use, delivering that beautiful sound and feeling comfortable in daily office use.<p>I think the biggest problem is having Bluetooth in your headphones, which then requires a battery that is not easily replaced, and requires software and technology that either has bugs or degrades in a faster manner. I'd suggest while sitting in front of your computer, to use a corded pair of quality headphones and keep using them for years to come. Less waste, less money spent, better sound.<p>I've had Beyerdynamic's dt-880 model since 2003. I could still use them in the office, but them being open I replaced them with the dt-1770 pro model to not annoy my colleagues that much. Brought the 880's home and now with the lockdowns I'm again using them daily while writing software. Just replace the ear pads every five years, clean the drivers with pressurized air and you're ready to go.
I bought QC 35's a year ago and wish I had sooner. They're very well designed, and reading this makes me respect Bose even more. This is why their brand name is still so trusted.
The degree of investigation is impressive and I commend Bose on this!<p>However, it does sound like they had a number of issues or regressions in prior versions of the firmware (eg. an update made some units connect to the wrong Bluetooth profile). I hope this demonstrates business reasons why it's important to get your product code right every release. Had they maintained a better reputation for competent product updates, it's unlikely user skepticism would have ballooned this into such a big deal.
"An important piece of feedback we’ve received from the community during this discussion is that you want the ability to downgrade the firmware on your Bose QC35 product. Today, we’re re-introducing the ability to downgrade firmware QC35 II to 4.3.6 and QC35 series 1 to 2.5.5 via the Bose BTU site for a limited time."<p>A limited time? Why? How limited?
> We are exploring options to allow you to modify how [self voice] works via the Bose Connect app<p>Yes, please! Shut that fucking thing OFF. The only time I use the cable is because it doesn't have this terrible feature.<p>Especially when I connect to something like an amateur radio there's zero reason to ruin the sound by mistaking listening to amateur radio as some sort of "call".
The founder, professor Bose, had quite an interesting career and background: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amar_Bose" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amar_Bose</a><p>> His father was an Indian freedom revolutionary[4] who, having been imprisoned for his political activities, fled Bengal in the 1920s in order to avoid further persecution by the British colonial police.<p>> In 2011, Bose donated a majority of the company's non-voting shares to MIT on the condition that the shares never be sold.
I have purchased five or six different pairs of Bose noise-cancelling headphones, but I will never buy another product from them again until they allow customers to revert firmware.<p>I updated the firmware on my QC35s a couple of years ago, and the ANC got worse. Like, maybe 6 decibels or so worse, with strange white noise. I wrote to them explaining the problem and asked how to revert firmware, and they said it wasn't permitted and instructed me to "turn the device off and on" or something like that as a way to pretend to address the issue and make me go away.<p>I have only owned two products whose manufacturers refused to solve the problem when a new release of software or firmware ruined the user experience. The first was my Google Nexus 6P that boot-looped itself to death upon startup after an Android upgrade, and the second was my pair of QC35s.<p>Since then, I don't trust Bose's updates and refuse to update any of my other devices made by them.
That's a fantastic way of showing a company is listening to customer feedback and acting upon it, even if there doesn't seem to be anything wrong.<p>Apple (and many other companies) could learn something from this transparency.
Before people start fawning over Bose's handling of this, don't forget they're just like every other data mining company:
<a href="https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-products/electronics/891794-bose-must-face-spying-headphones-class-action-lawsuit/" rel="nofollow">https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-pro...</a>
I was fortunate enough to get an expensed pair of QC 35 I's at a previous job. This was a little over 3 years ago now. Never had any of the described issues. Even now they feel and sound great. Battery life may be starting to degrade, which is disappointing since I don't believe there's a way to replace it myself, and Bose probably doesn't offer any service to do it either.
Wow, I am amazed at the level of care. I currently use a QC25, and did not update to 35 because I am not happy about the Siri/Google/Alexa integration. Still, I am definitely floored by the amount of care Bose provides on their product.<p>I guess my next set of headphones will still be from Bose.
I'm thinking about picking up the QC 35's series 2 or the Sony WH-1000MX3's. Any recommendations? Can either of those turn off the noise canceling tech? I'm not a big fan of noise canceling technologies, I'm just looking for a quality sounding wireless headset to pair with my iphone.
Audio "issues" are incredibly subjective. The placebo effect is so strong with audio, which has led to an entire industry of snake oil and hyper subjective audio comments (like many seen in the replies here). Unless you blind A/B test, it is very hard to discern audio differences unless you have been professionally trained. Your ears and perception are most likely lying to you, especially with something as subtle as noice cancellation. I definitely sympathize with Bose here, it is hard to convince people with science when it comes to audio, unfortunately.
For what its worth my QC35 right headset stopped working just a month past the 12 month warranty and I had no luck getting the issue redressed.<p>That's a rather early failure for ~350$ of hardware.
Assuming that the report isn't subtly misrepresenting the situation in some way, that's a fantastic job. It adds to my confidence in the hardware/firmware quality of their product.<p>I do however have lingering concerns about their spyware [0]. Does anyone know if that's been addressed?<p>[0] <a href="https://fortune.com/2017/04/19/bose-headphones-privacy/" rel="nofollow">https://fortune.com/2017/04/19/bose-headphones-privacy/</a>
For what it's worth, several of Bose's customers are continuing to refuse to believe this report's conclusion (in several instances, in an aggressively rude/accusatory way).<p><a href="https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-QC-35-Firmware-4-5-2-Noise-Cancellation-Investigation/td-p/285741" rel="nofollow">https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-...</a>
I have a QC 35, and I have experienced some of the degrading of sound isolation. After some research I discovered than the pads account for much of it, and they degrade rather quickly, but not faster than any other headphone and I have very expensive headphones. My Sennheiser 650 is >400 usd and is on his third pair of pads.<p>The QC35 is so great that I developed ear problems for using them too much. So be careful with that.
Full disclosure: My primary set is Sennheiser HD600, which I use a lot and love. Excellent sound objectively and subjectively. Worth every cent, despite being available since 1997. They benefit a lot from a headphone amp but still do a decent job without. They are made to last, and should an accident ever break a piece, all parts are replaceable individually without the need for tools. I've had them for several years and they're as good as new.<p>I have tested QC35 before, on a loan from a coworker. The FR is very good, but the distortion is horrendous. Measurements made on the set confirm by reviewers do confirm my impressions were spot on. Apparently the reason the FR is good is because they have a builtin DSP doing EQ.<p>When I heard the price, for such bad sounding headphones, I thought about them as a scam. Later, I learned they don't just distort a lot, but are also not made to last. Brand loyalty is high, and the money BOSE spends in marketing plays no small role on this. BOSE devices are expensive and those who buy them get associate the price with quality. When they break, they just buy BOSE again.
Has anyone personally encountered this problem? Do you believe in this report? Do you think something is missing?<p>For me, I quite like Bose products because their bluetooth pairing and connectivity seem to be significantly better than what I can get from cheaper brands like Taotronics, etc. I have always found products to be well built, even for full-plastic devices that are subject to more wear and tear than they deserve.
And what about their planned obsolescence strategy like the right ear simultaneously[0] stop working on everybody's QC25s with no replacement or repair option?<p>[0]: <a href="https://community.bose.com/t5/In-Ear-Headphones/Right-ear-stopped-working-QC25/td-p/37207" rel="nofollow">https://community.bose.com/t5/In-Ear-Headphones/Right-ear-st...</a>
There was a time where I likely spent more time on an airplane than some pilots. For years, I used their older QC3 all day long.. traveling and working. At some point, well past any warranty, they started to make a popping sound. They essentially just swapped it out for free.<p>I picked up a pair of the A20 aviation headsets, just before they announced the Bluetooth update. (I also fly, but when I do they are the bug smashers, not the commercial ones) They turned around and cross shipped a new module for my headset free of charge.<p>I did end up replacing the older QC3's with one of the QC35 wireless headsets. Nothing but positive things to say about their kit. For the most part, it has been used hard and worked flawlessly. When I have had an issue - they took really good care of me. Would reccomend.<p>(With the QC35, I've really not needed to do anything with them. They just connected to my Linux box and Andriod tables OOTB.)
Apple's AirPods Pro have a similar issue where a firmware update nerfed the noise-cancelling[1]. Apple stopped pushing the update, but I'm been stuck with this bad firmware for nearly four months now.<p>The firmware updates are installed silently in the background while AirPods are charging, so I didn't have any choice in the matter.<p>FWIW - I agree with installing updates automatically silently in the background because it solves a ton of issues for both developers and 99% of users. But the developers must thoroughly test the performance in real-world prior to pushing updates to users <i>AND</i> offer a way to downgrade.<p>1. <a href="https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/18/airpods-pro-noise-cancellation-update/" rel="nofollow">https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/18/airpods-pro-noise-cancellatio...</a>
Their soundsports on the other hand are just bad at connecting to a bluetooth device and staying in sync at >1.5m distance.<p>I've tried it with 4 different phones now, and they just cut out every time.<p>Bose has been kind enough to exchange several pairs at no cost and hassle, but its not a problem with one of them, its all of them
Maybe I’m unlucky, but even keeping my QC25s in the case when not wearing them, I had two fail due to internal hardware issues just past warranty. Support was a joke. I’d have felt like a fool the next time so I switched to Sony’s line, zero issues in the last 4 years and I’ve traveled twice as much.
I noticed other threads complained about lack of CHANGELOG for firmware updates.<p>I don't know what they have that they think is so secret, that thry can't tell us what bugs were fixed.<p>As an engineer I dislike this lack of transparency.<p>On the other hand these headphones mostly just work, apart from a few annoyance with reconnect time, etc.
Now THAT is how you do a root cause analysis. I don't own a pair of these headphones, but I'm sending this out to my coworkers as an example of thorough work. Very very well done!<p>Ironically... also looking at purchasing their product
Bose have had a few bad software updates historically. My sound bar lost its bass in an early update which they eventually resolved, also they made some promises about airplay 2 which never happened on some devices. Privacy policy + devices phoning home is questionable.<p>QC35’s are a major seller for them so it’s good to see the effort going in to investigating the issue. Hopefully the effort gone in to investigating carries through to better software in general so it’s easy for them to verify what’s changed and also better release procedures again so they can reduce the post release debugging they had to do here.
This is fascinating.<p>Seems almost a little overkill, but if their reputation is at stake then you want to make sure.<p>Now I just wish there were a similar investigation into the AirPods Pro update -- some people swearing it massively impaired the noise reduction, other people saying there's no difference and some tiny subset of people are always going to be imagining things (or taking a different train or working in a new office, like this article).<p>At least the idea of being able to downgrade firmware ought to put people's minds at ease... but I can also see why technically that might be annoying to implement.
This is amazing! It's really nice to see how much Bose cares. Contrast that with Apple for instance: they are both selling products on which they emphasize quality and craftsmanship at above market prices. Yet Apple never ever acknowledges QA issues until a few years after the product is out, and does all it can to pretend everything is fine. Really impressed by Bose. I would seriously consider purchasing their headphones if active noise cancellation didn't make me feel like my nose is all congested and didn't give me a headache.
I love my QC35 headphones except one thing- the bluetooth range is very small, like 20 feet? AirPods go much farther from my phone/laptop without breaking up. If I just cup my hands over the outside of the right headphone, the signal cuts out. Or if I hold my phone in my left hand while walking, it cuts out some times. Sounds great as long as my phone is close enough though.
There's a potential systemic bias involved in this that the report does not consider (unsurprisingly). What if the particular firmware caused hearing damage that now causes these users to think the noise-cancelling performance has deteriorated? I have no reason to think this is the case, but wow, what a confounder to have to deal with!
"our full engineering analysis determined that the degradation in all cases was the result of hardware related issues with earcushions, aftermarket parts, or mechanical integrity"<p>Specifically, damage caused by the customer from use or misuse, or buying inadequate replacement parts from 3rd party manufacturers.
I had to replace the ear cushion 6 month ago, and I couldn't find Bose's original replacement parts. I noticed the ANR perfs dropped a little bit after the replacement - something similar to what they described in the article.<p>Is Bose selling original ear cushions somewhere ?
I have a pair of QC 35s which I can only use low/no NC on due to vertigo issues with "high" mode. Looks like Bose has done an extremely impressive job of fleshing out the problem. Well done.
So is the general consensus that we can safely update now?<p>Honestly I'm not great at noticing sound quality differences, unless there's a huge difference. But this one seemed to affect so many people I stayed away.