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Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

734 pointsby webdvaabout 5 years ago

71 comments

lsh123about 5 years ago
Disclaimer: I graduated from one of the top math high schools in Moscow in early 90s, I have MS in Math from Moscow State University, and a half finished PhD from the same place.<p>I think on average the difference between a high school student from Russia and US is negligible. Either country doesn’t really require much to finish school and many kids just do the tests without understanding what is going on. What separates Soviet Union (and now Russian) system is the practice of selecting kids with interest in mathematics &#x2F; physics into special classes or schools for gifted kids. This government program feeds the mathematics and physics departments in the universities and allows kids who go through this program to get a very early start in mathematics. This is very similar to government sponsored sports programs with talented kids getting help with summer camps, or even all year round training schools.
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c-smileabout 5 years ago
I was comparing my math books (from Soviet university, Physics and Applied Math) and my son&#x27;s from Canadian university (CS).<p>Huge difference to be honest. Canadian ones (same as in US I think) were more like belletristic texts written with the goal to give basics without too much thought needed by the reader.<p>In contrast you cannot approach Soviet text math book without serious thinking effort. You need to overcome some mental barrier to get into. If you cannot do that then this is not yours - choose something else.<p>I believe that is because of different motivations of high-school systems. University on the West gets its money directly from students so they motivated to attract and keep as many students as possible - so books are entry level to do not scare students. Barrier here is established from &quot;paying user&quot; side.<p>In USSR universities were getting money from state&#x2F;society as education was free so they must maintain those barriers so only those who went through were there. Barrier here is from &quot;service provider&quot; side.
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geomarkabout 5 years ago
Here is an interesting paper [1](PDF) by a Russian mathematician who has taught mathematics in Russia, USA and Brazil. He compares the &quot;very successful usage of word problems in Russia and contradictory, inefficient and often immature treatment of word problems in USA.&quot;<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;toomandre.com&#x2F;travel&#x2F;sweden05&#x2F;WP-SWEDEN-NEW.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;toomandre.com&#x2F;travel&#x2F;sweden05&#x2F;WP-SWEDEN-NEW.pdf</a>
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agumonkeyabout 5 years ago
I can only assume but culture makes things very different. I often said that French abstract algebra books stopped me from learning for 10 years (after many serious attempts). One book from Garreth Williams unlocked 80% of my issues. The shocking part was the approach. It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data. In French books it&#x27;s all theorems and concepts. Learning curve to make a Haskeller faint. And that book is not the only instance, Gilbert Strang lectures on youtube are also similar in style. It also correlates with the pragmatic engineering of US history (electricity comes to mind).
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starik36about 5 years ago
Personal experience. In USSR till 16, then 11th and 12th grade in US. Yes, the books and the curriculum were way harder in the Soviet Union, but it&#x27;s largely pointless.<p>In USSR, there were 2-3 kids in the entire class who actually vaguely understood the material and the other 28 were just copying their homework.<p>In a US high school, by contrast, you can choose to take whatever level of math you are able to grok (AP, College Prep, etc...)<p>Given the average results, I vastly prefer the US system. USSR system was a one size fits all that didn&#x27;t work well for the average pupil.
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PeterStuerabout 5 years ago
We had a very famous MIT professor on a 6 month sabbatical at our lab in the early 90&#x27;s. He remarked on the difference between US and our institution in Belgium being that here you can just assume undergrad students would be fluent in basic math subjects, whereas in the US (in this case MIT) you would have to explain even very basic math.<p>Now 3 decades later we are also at a US level as math has in general been completely de-emphasized at all levels of education.<p>As for textbooks, at the time EU ones were pretty clean, mostly definitions, axioms, proofs and conjectures, plots etc, layed out in simple black on white, whereas US textbooks were extremely wordy, full of colour and irrelevant photos blasting away at your senses.<p>Sadly this seems to be the style that commercially won, but I doubt very much it is beneficial to the student.
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MisterTeaabout 5 years ago
I have a feeling that TV&#x2F;media really did play a huge role in the decline of intellectualism in the western world. The USA loves its TV, hollywood and celebrities. It&#x27;s been reinforced throughout the culture and it makes a lot of people very very wealthy. The more time you spend watching tv the more money they make. Though here&#x27;s the crux for them, educated people think more and do more so they don&#x27;t make good customers. So fill the TV with anti intellectualism. Then toss it the political usefulness of a mindless medium and you have a dangerous conduit so to speak.<p>A friend grew up in a household where his mother forbade TV and video games. During this covid-19 lockdown, instead of mindlessly watching TV like everyone else appears to be doing, he built a deck and is rebuilding his garage among other projects. Every other friend I talk to is sitting around drunk, high or watching TV. Few do some projects but it&#x27;s mostly TV show chatter in the chat apps.<p>Personally I don&#x27;t hate TV and I have netflix. Though I only really watch it in spates and when it is on, I am on my laptop or doodling in my notebooks. It&#x27;s more for background noise than content. Though of course there are some times when I&#x27;m tired and just want to sit and watch an episode of a show.
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dirtnuggetabout 5 years ago
I had an exchange year during High School where I moved from Germany to Florida for a year and attended a public school. I hate to say this but to me the classes were laughably easy. While I was a 10th grader in Germany I could have easily graduated there.<p>I do however favour the US system of individual classes where you could advance in e.g. Mathematics but if you had trouble with language you could take a less-intensive course.<p>This doesn&#x27;t work in Germany. You either advance with all subjects at once or you don&#x27;t. One of the most stupid things that I have witnessed. In our 11th&#x2F;12th grade we would have a huge difference between grades. About 20% of people were getting straight A&#x27;s while over a third struggled to even pass. Barely anyone in the mid-range. Terrible system which makes it really really hard for teachers to teach a class.
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rdiddlyabout 5 years ago
I mean, could it be as simple as &quot;Learning math is more important to Russians than to Americans?&quot; And before you dismiss this as simplistic, consider everything that&#x27;s competing for attention with &quot;learning math.&quot; What things are Americans either preoccupied with or beset with, that Russians esp. Soviet Russians, weren&#x27;t? I&#x27;m thinking, the profit motive. Particularly as concerns textbook publishers. And parents who need to pay for healthcare and that oversized house. And textbook readers who wonder how the hell they&#x27;ll ever use this to find a job.
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inglorabout 5 years ago
We have lots of Soviet teachers in Israel, they always said &quot;it&#x27;s better to solve something in 15 ways than solve 15 things the same way&quot; and that resonated.<p>To be fair though, that approach is omnipresent in the math faculty in the Hebrew University - so it was not unique to the Soviet paradigm but it was interesting to see it in High School.<p>There is also a genuine sense of &quot;let&#x27;s try to do this!&quot; that&#x27;s very common in computer science but is more common in &quot;soviet&quot; math than &quot;regular Israeli&quot; math.<p>The most important distinction IMO was that these teachers were not _afraid_ of Math and could discuss higher level non-high-school concepts typically. Having a teacher that loves the subject is important.
totorovirusabout 5 years ago
In my high school year in international school(in germany) I&#x27;ve seen many students from diverse backgrounds. I could see balanced number of students taught from their own origin: US, asian or international school itself.<p>One thing I remember until now is that students from US kept using the phrase &#x27;plug-it-in&#x27; whenever they substitute values into quadratic formula. Overusing that term made me laugh about their attitude towards math because it felt as if they didn&#x27;t really care what&#x27;s inside that magic formula that pops the answer out.<p>It felt so &#x27;american&#x27; because I felt the same attitude when they treat computer programs:<p>&#x27;I don&#x27;t give a shit about what&#x27;s going on. Some smart asian kid will make me a magic machine that I just need to plug in the numbers and prints the answer, while I focus on making varsity football team next year.&#x27;<p>You can downvote me for my racism though. All excuse I can make is that they also laughed when I told them how their attitude towards math sounded like.
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tarun_anandabout 5 years ago
This is a question close to my heart.<p>I was a huge fan of Russian Math and Science books and I used them to study for an entrance exam to IIT (its more difficult to get into IIT than Harvard) and came out in top 100 in the country.<p>But, inspite of coming out at the top of the exam, I found Russian maths books very interesting and sometimes very difficult to master.<p>This coming from a country full of brilliant mathematicians. Russian math books are not only hardcore compared to US - they are hardcore compared to India also!!<p>One particular example is V. A. Krechmar.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.in&#x2F;Problem-Book-Algebra-V-Krechmar&#x2F;dp&#x2F;9351448320" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.in&#x2F;Problem-Book-Algebra-V-Krechmar&#x2F;dp&#x2F;935...</a><p>If you consider yourself good in maths, try solving the problems from this book!<p>There is simply no comparison of Soviet Math Books with the rest of the world. US is so far behind that this comparison is not apt. The closest is Indian Math books or books from Cambridge like S. L. Loney.
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wencabout 5 years ago
The linked article points to the fact that because the Soviets were resource-constrained, theory was more accessible than equipment which drove the education system to favor theoretical training.<p>I wonder if there&#x27;s a trade-off to this. On one hand you produce some really elite theoretical minds (Pontryagin, Lyapunov, Kolmogorov, etc.). But the counterfactual is that it excludes those with high IQ but are more practically-oriented as well as late-bloomers who didn&#x27;t take to math early but would have become reasonable applied mathematicians (I belong to this category). I guess we will never know.<p>To draw a parallel, one of the criticisms of the French system -- where mathematics is treated as the most important arbiter of intelligence (for grandes ecoles admissions) -- is that other aptitudes are almost seen as secondary. It optimizes too much for a very narrow aptitude -- which is great for producing Fields Medalists, but underoptimizes for talent elsewhere.<p>In my experience, while the American education system on the other hand is kind of a piece of cake from K-12, it somehow manages to catch up at the college level (more or less). At the graduate level, the differences in ability between a U.S. graduate student and a Soviet-system&#x2F;Eastern European educated one is largely diminished. And it does this without over-optimizing for any particular aptitude so deep expertise is developed over a broader field in the U.S.
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dzhiurgisabout 5 years ago
I&#x27;m from Lithuania.<p>My dad had present from our relatives in Canada - basketball shoes (eventually stolen) and a calculator. That calculator pulled a lot of favours over time, he was the only one in town to have one. Dad couldn&#x27;t believe you could just order anything from catalogue in 70s. Anything the world, you can buy. Such a unreal concept. He also got Beatles LP from somewhere (eventually confiscated from teachers).<p>It&#x27;s a good point the access to many basics weren&#x27;t there. I&#x27;ve finished high school in 2006, got my first PC in 1998. Very quickly I&#x27;ve learned to solve math problems using graphing calculator apps. Cheated my German classes by translating from German to English using Babelfish then to Lithuanian.<p>The only other time I ever had to do derivatives and integrals was math class at university... while studying for management degree!
radkapitalabout 5 years ago
This website contains contains links to lot of these textbooks - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mirtitles.org" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mirtitles.org</a>
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INTPenisabout 5 years ago
I&#x27;m a Swede who returned to their native Croatia in the late 90s and early 2000s and found that kids were learning maths on a much more advanced level than we were in Sweden.<p>I&#x27;ve throughout my life learned that this goes for most of eastern europe. I can&#x27;t explain why. If it&#x27;s a more demanding education or if they have some sort of genetic&#x2F;environmental predisposition for maths.<p>But the phenomenon has been pretty consistent in my experience with people from Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, Ukraine and the balkans.<p>One memory that stuck with me was how the village children would come back from their last day at school, beginning of summer, and show off their report cards.<p>Dozens of happy kids walking along a dirt road with their report cards in hand, ready to show them off to any adult that might give them a few Kuna or candy for the effort.<p>I was shocked, having been raised in Sweden.
downerendingabout 5 years ago
In a US college in the 80s, the math professors definitely seemed to be in awe of the Russians when it came to this stuff. And though I was in the US, early on I was in an utter hardware wasteland, and I do think that not having much hardware access improved my ability to just sit and think about things with pencil and paper.
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penetrarthurabout 5 years ago
I was taught in university by soviet professors and had to study soviet textbooks and from what I can tell, Soviet textbooks are extremely steep and unfriendly. There is not a single odd word and it even feels like they had to save the paper. Text is often describing schemes that are 5-10 pages before. It takes significantly more concentration to understand the whole thing. It feels like authors used to compete in the precision of information rather than making it more available for someone who is going to read it.<p>On the other hand, books from USA tend to be more friendly and will first explain the basic intuition and only then dig deeper if necessary.
5reviveabout 5 years ago
speaking from personal experience, the math I learned up to grade 4 in the Soviet Union was enough to glide through all of American high school math. And I wasn&#x27;t in any way an advanced math student in the USSR. And I dont seem to recall any extensive, South Korean style homework.
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nafeyabout 5 years ago
This a gem of a line:<p>&quot;Coding up a simulation and having a computer torture it until it confessed the results you wanted certainly takes talent, but it is arguably a different kind of talent than thinking deeply about the problem itself.&quot;
rpiguyabout 5 years ago
The classic answer to this question is that &quot;math was cheap.&quot;<p>The Soviet Union was comparatively poor to the United States, so you create advantages where you can for the least investment. Math and national security are closely linked, aerodynamics, radio communication&#x2F;RADAR, encryptions, etc. investment in rigor payed them dividends.
nine_zerosabout 5 years ago
My wife’s 12 yr old niece lives in India. Every time I see her, she’s studying all day.<p>I happened to look at her math books. They had hundreds or thousands of word problems in one year’s cheap textbook. And she had solved ALL of them TWICE over within 8 months. It was unbelievable.<p>I haven’t seen anything quite like this in America.
econconabout 5 years ago
Well I went to IIT and our education system is more like Soviet Style education, heck we used the same books for competition prep.<p>I aced every class always stood first in my class till class 10th and after that my performance dropped till I realized that &quot;I am not supposed to care about understanding a concept in its entirety and solve problem based on only things I&#x27;ve learned however limiting it was&quot;. It was first unsettling to me because in earlier classes I always went into depth and tried building my understanding of a subject from ground up but in class 11th, there was no time for all that. I did what everyone does, I basically figured out how to solve problems based on pattern recognition, this literally required no understanding or even how things for together but remembering few rules and forumla and their order, and there you go - I cleared IIT just like that, no coaching or help required.<p>This literally killed all my love for subjects and it became a &quot;game&quot; to solve problems and acquire points. So I stopped bothering with deeper understanding all together and began having life as in hanging out with friends and girlfriend and only coming back to study when I am in mood to game the system again.<p>I never enjoyed this kind of labor, slow placed exploration made bigger impact on my mind and I&#x27;ve forgotten most of the things I learned in competition mode.<p>Thing is those students who feel like they can&#x27;t build concepts in air without solid roots, they are going to suffer in Soviet Style education.
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peter_d_shermanabout 5 years ago
Excerpt:<p>&quot;At the risk of oversimplifying, I noticed that because of the traditional scarcity of equipment, Russian students and scientists had to<p><i>think</i><p>rather than experiment, whether with computers or accelerators; it was often all that was available to them.&quot;
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seibeljabout 5 years ago
Soviet body builders only used free weights and a pull-up bar. You don’t need anything but that to get big muscles. Similarly, you don’t need anything except a chalk board to teach math and most other subjects.
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mygoabout 5 years ago
Is following along and learning &#x2F; practicing math directly from a textbook still the most effective way to learn math?<p>Now that we have devices in our pockets and on our desktops with more and more capabilities that have educational use cases such as interactivity and AR, how would a calculus lesson be made in 2020? Could we just go down the street, aim our devices at cars passing by, or cars speeding up from a stop sign, and see how speed, acceleration, and position relate to each other in real-time? Or aim it at a pool table, bounce a cue ball off another ball and see how vector summation can work in real life? Or input the weight of a cue ball, the type of surface (felt?) and then see how the applied force can be estimated based on how fast the cue ball moves when you hit it? Interactive bits like this as examples and practice mixed in with the text?
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qaqabout 5 years ago
It&#x27;s not just textbooks. The whole approach was different. You would be regularly called upon in class to do a problem on the blackboard. You would be graded on the spot publicly. There was no participation trophy type stuff. Teacher could easily make fun of you for not knowing something etc.
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gnrlbzikabout 5 years ago
When I moved to Canada in 98 from Belarus, I had minimal language knowledge. I was also half way through school year. After my testing was done I was put in to next grade.<p>Even though I was not the best student in my home country, prolly mediocre at best. With some subjects being better than others, still it was surprising to me.<p>By next school year I also felt that science classes were way behind what I was used to, and even though I could only read and barely understood instructions, I still was able to do very well in all of my stem classes despite lack of language knowledge. Honestly it was kind of annoying that I had to do things that I already have done in previous grades.<p>As I have started getting better with English and started paying less attention in class and less to my homework, eventually I fell somewhat behind.
rurbanabout 5 years ago
Easy answer: Russia&#x27;s education was for engineers, US for snowflakes.<p>Also it extents to CS. It&#x27;s 10x easier to find competent Russian programmers than in the US. They are dominating the various math contests or chess for decades.
Tade0about 5 years ago
My friend went to one of the best high schools in my country (Poland), where students would, on their own accord, practice using old Soviet math textbooks.<p>I got my hands on one of them where the task stated was usually something short, like: &quot;доказать тождество&quot;, followed by a set of rather insane(at least for a highschooler) equations.<p>That bit about a dearth of equipment is true in most eastern block countries by the way. Case in point: the other day I asked my younger cousin, who&#x27;s currently doing his master&#x27;s, if they still use those multimeters with nixie tube displays like I did ten years ago.<p>They do.
amoorthyabout 5 years ago
My son started in the Russian School of Math - a pretty popular after-school program in many US cities. What is fascinating is the core theory that algebra can be grasped by children as young as 6. And there seems to be some truth to this given my son&#x27;s experience.<p>One random shout-out: I think if more of us learned math from folks like 3 Blue 1 Brown we would love it enough to explore it more. I don&#x27;t know if I&#x27;m smart enough to have become a master mathematician but I find myself falling in love with math with every video he puts out.
gandalfgeekabout 5 years ago
It&#x27;s not just math. Physics too. People from India who went through engineering entrance exams like JEE will have fond (or horrific) memories of &quot;Problems in General Physics&quot; by Irodov (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.org&#x2F;details&#x2F;IrodovProblemsInGeneralPhysics&#x2F;mode&#x2F;2up" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.org&#x2F;details&#x2F;IrodovProblemsInGeneralPhysics&#x2F;m...</a>). Every problem in there was something to wrestle with.
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usgroupabout 5 years ago
I feel lots of people have made the point that over time the emphasis on maths has been reduced such that education would be more useful to more people. I.e structuring the maths syllabus such that it would select for the maths super stars does a poor job of giving the run of the mill student much value from their maths education.<p>I do grad level maths every day but I’ve never stopped being a reluctant mathematician. Sometimes the maths of the problem is insightful and interesting but most of the time what I’m doing is battling to express&#x2F;validate an intuition in a formal language.<p>I think that emphasis on maths as a language for the exact representation of your thoughts is maybe what the modern curriculum is up to, as opposed to the emphasis of maths as the language of your thoughts. Just the same way that you might write code to express designs; I think it’d be weird to think in code although certainly some (maybe even the best) do think about software in something closer to code than box diagrams.
nickikabout 5 years ago
What all of this shows is that education and economy are really not very related. This book makes the case:<p>&gt; The Case against Education: Why the Education System Is a Waste of Time and Money<p>What happens is that companies just hire people who have proven that they are not dumb enough to drop out of school and just did what they had to to move on with their lives.<p>In the end the Western countries are richer, not because the students are great, but because they have great opportunity and learn what they need to, so they can get that opportunity.<p>The Soviet Union really was great at showing this, lots of super smart people, good schools, lots of government investment in high tech, more effective intellectual property theft then China now, cheap natural resources, cheap oil and so on. Jet they couldn&#x27;t really make a competitive economy.<p>Teach people the basics as efficiently as possible, show them where they can learn more if they want to, give them some resources to do so if they want to and let them find their way in a market economy.
Jugurthaabout 5 years ago
I stand by my answer[0] to that question.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qr.ae&#x2F;pNrgmY" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;qr.ae&#x2F;pNrgmY</a>
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tracker1about 5 years ago
For that matter, look at say a 4th or 5th grade English textbook from the U.S. pre-1970 compared to even High School book today.
hintymadabout 5 years ago
Economic reasons aside, I think Soviet educators also believe that rigorous and challenging training will realize the greatest potential of students. The top students are self-driven and usually get the best resources anyway. It is the majority middle that need most rigorous and challenging training to realize their full potential. Unfortunately, US educators in K-12 decided to move in the opposite direction. David Klein&#x27;s writing told appalling and sad stories of how National Council of Teachers of Mathematics (NTCM) won over the course of last 100 years: - A quarter century of US &#x27;math wars&#x27; and political partisanship - A Brief History of American K-12 Mathematics Education in the 20th Century<p>By the way, US&#x27;s upper-level college course and post-graduate textbooks are hardcore too. If you don&#x27;t believe me, go check out the Graduate Texts in Mathematics.
foucabout 5 years ago
My dad took the advanced courses for physics, math, organic chem in first year University of Toronto in 1970. I&#x27;ve seen his textbooks and they were on the same level of this. Much more advanced than what I saw in the 90s&#x2F;00s. More focus on reasoning from first principles, less focus on easily approachable material.<p>Basically I&#x27;m saying that baby boomers had more advanced textbooks in their university period compared to what their kids got in the 90s&#x2F;00s. But also less people went to university back then, it was more rigorously academic back then.
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hliyanabout 5 years ago
&gt; <i>because of the traditional scarcity of equipment, Russian students and scientists had to think rather than experiment</i><p>This heavily resonated with me. Early in my career (late 90&#x27;s - early 00&#x27;s), I had to develop the skill of <i>dry running</i> (basically running a given block of code with given inputs in my head and predicting the outcomes) because of scarcity.<p>I was in a domain where I had to build 100,000+ lines of C++ into a single executable, manually deploy to a remote Solaris machine and wait for up to 5 minutes for system re-initialization before I could run a simple test.<p>Needless to say, we learned to predict what our code does as we wrote it. The idea of unit tests re-running automatically as you write new code in the IDE would have been dismissed as an unattainable heaven (or maybe even considered downright <i>satanic</i>).
eli555about 5 years ago
I had a student from the Soviet Union in my class. He said they had no funding for all the nice things we had in chemistry class. But that the difference was that he had never seen so many people unwilling to learn anything, as he had noted of American students.
rurbanabout 5 years ago
Easy answer: Russia&#x27;s education was for engineers, US for snowflakes.<p>Also it extents to CS. It&#x27;s 10x easier to find competent Russian programmers than in the US. They are dominating the various math contents or chess for decades.
rq1about 5 years ago
I still have my father’s MIR books and they seemed to me really practical and pragmatic.<p>Especially the Smirnov (iirc) ones about differential calculus, where he introduces it with a physics quantification problem.<p>You could then imagine objects moving around... etc.<p>Later on he introduces the formal definitions... informally (like “we discussed this and that, let’s call this concept &lt;concept&gt; and if you think about it if &lt;assumption&gt; then &lt;theorem&gt;“). It’s like a piece of literature or a correspondance.<p>Compared to that, Bourbakis feel like being lost in a desert without anything to drink nor eat but dry biscuits.
OJFordabout 5 years ago
All the answers (and discussion here) seems to take the title question as fact. My initial reaction was - and I should say at this point I&#x27;m neither from nor live in either country, and have no national pride or whatever to be wounded by who has the harder-core textbooks - are they actually? Or do they just cover <i>different</i> material, that the US curriculum happens to get to later?<p>It&#x27;s a pity Quora doesn&#x27;t have a question &#x27;body&#x27;, like StackExchange does for example, such that the asker could&#x27;ve given an example.
rb808about 5 years ago
The real question should be is why are US textbooks so hard when most people never need HS math after finishing school, and lack so many other skills that are never taught.
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meritocracy66about 5 years ago
Because Soviet math textbooks target a different audience: those kids who really enjoy math and derive pleasure in a bit of complexity (think Sheldon Cooper from BBT). You can call them elitist. Nobody cares about the other kids.<p>US textbooks, on the other hand, are targeted towards more general audience--the average student. That doesn&#x27;t make them bad, just different.
Koshkinabout 5 years ago
Most American grad level math textbooks are as hardcore as it gets; undergrad, not so much, especially compared to such introductory texts as, say, <i>Beginner&#x27;s Course in Topology: Geometric Chapters</i> by Rokhlin et al. which, I’d say, is extreme in its hard-coreness. (A popular text by Munkres, by comparison, is a children’s book.)
aks_tldrabout 5 years ago
Ah mir publications, One of my favorite book during school was elementary mathematics by them. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Elementary-Mathematics-G-Dorofeev&#x2F;dp&#x2F;8123908423" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Elementary-Mathematics-G-Dorofeev&#x2F;dp&#x2F;...</a>
grabballabout 5 years ago
I&#x27;m the only one who hates quora.com?
readwindabout 5 years ago
What a mountain of USSR and eastern-europe people there are in this thread; so refreshing; this is great.
LatteLazyabout 5 years ago
I don&#x27;t know about the Soviets, but American books always seem to take longer to say less than other countries texts. I think it&#x27;s a volume thing: Americans see 400 pages and think it must be twice the product of a 200 page alternative...
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lymeeducatorabout 5 years ago
Curious, with 2 smaller grade school children in the Midwest, that I am now &quot;home schooling&quot; during the pandemic, I find the teachers spend minimal time on math and I have to supplement them...a lot.
nuberoabout 5 years ago
Funny… My father worked in Protvino in the early 70s for a CERN Project…
8589934591about 5 years ago
Anyone have any links for recommended textbooks? It&#x27;d be nice to have a sort of roadmap for a self learner. Especially recommended soviet textbooks.
rawoke083600about 5 years ago
First thing that comes to mind when reading this headline the &quot;Ivan Drakov Meme&quot; with &quot;If he fails, he fails&quot; :D
Koshkinabout 5 years ago
It may be just that Russian style of teaching is more conservative and preserved the way teaching was done in the 1800s.
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jonnypottyabout 5 years ago
Queue a load of people extrapolating their own personal experiences into generalisations covering the entire country
cafardabout 5 years ago
A neighbor in Washington, DC, sent her son for tutoring at the so-named Russian School of Mathematics here.
simplegeekabout 5 years ago
Who are some of the famous Russian authors for high school maths?<p>Sorry about going on a tangent but looking for good books for my kid.<p>Thanks!
Havocabout 5 years ago
The teachers too. We had one that could work out trig stuff in her head to a fair amount of decimals.
oarabbus_about 5 years ago
How do Soviet high school math&#x2F;physics texts compare to those of China, and India?
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moscow_mathabout 5 years ago
Would someone mind providing texts that particularly exemplify the Soviet style?
stjohnswartsabout 5 years ago
I still think the US&#x2F;The West model won this battle.
Hard_Spaceabout 5 years ago
I moved to Romania three years ago, and was surprised to find the same kind of specialist&#x2F;vocational high school paths have been in use a long time in this country. Once you hit teen years you might find yourself, if you worked hard enough, in one of the more prestigious specialized high school institutions for one of many subjects, such as architecture, medicine, physics or the arts.<p>It seemed to me a huge pressure to put on such young shoulders, to commit to a career path so early, but that&#x27;s the aptitude-based system that dominated under communism. Since the schools are so prestigious, much of that system still remains.
DeathArrowabout 5 years ago
I grew up in a former eastern block country.<p>There are many reasons for this:<p>In USSR and other communist countries, there was a pressure towards having more scientists, engineers and highly trained specialists. To achieve this, they had to foster excellence.<p>US educational system is optimized for inclusion, diversity and money making. This means technical and scientific subjects are watered down so nobody is left behind. USSR and eastern block educational systems were built to cater to the most gifted students and produce scientific excellence. That is also true for some parts of Europe today, China, India and South Korea and maybe some other asian countries.<p>There was also a lack of distractions so it was easier for the kids in schools and students in universities to concentrate on learning.<p>In general, kids were expected to do a lot of homework each day and during vacations - I remember doing tens of math exercises each day and hundreds in vacation.<p>There were special classes in high school for more talented kids - where they got to do more math, physics, chemistry than their peers. Those classes had the best teachers.<p>Best kids at math or other sciences had supplementary training, they stayed after hours and learned more advanced concepts often with University teachers.<p>The school books in secondary schools and high schools weren&#x27;t authored by educators but by best scientist in their fields. Learning programs were unique and developed also by the best in their fields, not by educators.<p>Teachers followed very rigorous training in universities, so they were actually skilled in the field they taught.<p>Everything builds over notions taught in previous years. There&#x27;s no shortcut, no constant remembering of elementary notions.<p>Everything was taught with proofs, in a logical manner. There was no &quot;magic&quot;. No teacher said &quot;this thing works this way, you have to trust me on this&quot;. Instead, all things were proofed and the students had to learn all the &quot;whys&quot; along with the &quot;hows&quot;. If you were a high school student and forgot one more advanced integration or derivation formula, there&#x27;s no problem in deducting it from more basic theory.<p>One could enroll in a technical Faculty at University only after a series of very difficult exams. Sometimes you had to fight with 30 - 40 others for a place.<p>Once students reached higher education, the mediocre were weed out, leaving University teacher concetrating on teaching most advanced concepts to the kind of people whou could grasp them and were interested.<p>Since any kind of education was free, and in many cases state provided free food and housing and many scholarship for many university students and some high school students, the state wanted to otimized their returns. That meant getting the most highly trained specialists they could for the resources they used in education.<p>Students were also motivated to learn, because a job as a scientist or engineer was deemed a much better career than working long shifts in cold factories.<p>To conclude: the communist regime had to compete with the West somehow, and in that competition they had to make learning a very competitive space.<p>US educational system lives from the money payd by students, or by funding based on the number of students, so on one hand it has to attract more and more students so it earns more money. US educational system is more and more impacted by ideology, and scientific education is more and more watered down, even at the best universities.[1]<p>For now, that impact on education is solved by bringing lots of people educated elsewhere. It will probably work this way as long as US has better standard of living. I think it is not a safe bet to rely in the long term, and since standard of living will constantly improve in other countries, US has to better its scientific and technical education, not worsen it.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.city-journal.org&#x2F;html&#x2F;how-identity-politics-harming-sciences-15826.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.city-journal.org&#x2F;html&#x2F;how-identity-politics-harm...</a>
steve76about 5 years ago
The answer points to ingenuity due to a lack of resources which is susceptible to obsolescence.<p>School in the USA does a lot more than just educate, for instance child protection services and employment. The USA also takes everyone, specifically the violent and malicious, due to compassion.<p>The USA suffered: - multiple World Wars - a fifty year Cold War that was just as bad - multiple nuclear standoffs - horrific terrorism - black market drug smuggling, probably the gravest problem today - repeated invasions - a Civil War which involved foreign intervention - attempts at colonial occupation - originally being made as a death camp and penal colony
mnw21camabout 5 years ago
&quot;Please enable Javascript and refresh the page to continue&quot;<p>I don&#x27;t want to &quot;continue&quot;, I would just like to read the article.
virmundiabout 5 years ago
America did this too. There was the New Math trend in the 50-60s which feels like common core. Here&#x27;s a comedy song about it from that era.<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;UIKGV2cTgqA" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;UIKGV2cTgqA</a>
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ytersabout 5 years ago
I think it comes down to communism. According to Marx&#x27;s book &quot;The Machine&quot; the end game of communism is essentially an omnibenevolent AI. Marx thought eventually all forms of labor would be mechanised into a colossal machine that would run the world. Thus, the whole point of education is to train the geniuses in math, science, and technology in order to bring about this machine god. That&#x27;s, in my opinion, why there is such a huge emphasis on those subjects in the Soviet system. All the other subjects are full of questions and speculation, and in general seem useless from that perspective once you believe you&#x27;ve reduced the aspirations of the humanities&#x27; longing for justice and truth to an engineering problem to solve.
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tapatioabout 5 years ago
In Soviet Russia, you teach textbook.
LaserToyabout 5 years ago
Because Spartaaaaa.<p>But honestly, I always thought it is because whoever wrote them didn’t care to make them easier as they were not competing for the student.<p>But yep, they are total hardcore.
readhnabout 5 years ago
...and all those hardcore math books still couldnt help avoid a society that is now run by a bunch of thugs and &quot;thieves in law&quot;.
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