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Small business rescue earned banks $10B in fees

490 pointsby gnrlbzikabout 5 years ago

26 comments

lordnachoabout 5 years ago
Gotta ask whether the banking system makes sense in its current form.<p>- Part of it is actually a utility. Payments, sending money from one place to another, making sure there&#x27;s an account at the other end of that number. Everyone needs this, yet being a huge international network there isn&#x27;t a whole lot that one bank offers that another cannot.<p>- Part of it is deciding who to lend money to. Makes sense for the bank to decide this with its own money.<p>- Part of it is regulatory. We don&#x27;t want money laundering. Have to ask whether this really ought to be up to law enforcement to do, or as it is now a massive burden on the banks, which also have bad incentives.<p>What if we had the central bank give everyone an account that was interoperable with the rest of the banking system? Then if you want to hand out money, you just do it. If you want to borrow money, find a lender.
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tempsyabout 5 years ago
The thing here is the bank isn’t taking any risk here. All the loans are guaranteed by the government. So banks are really just a middle man that is transferring money from the SBA to a small business’s bank account and taking on zero credit risk.<p>The government has the ability to send funds directly to people obviously...that’s how they are sending the stimulus checks and send tax refunds.<p>Banks are basically being compensated for doing paperwork.
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bcxabout 5 years ago
I&#x27;d like to see a version of this article and headline that figures out the effort required by the banks to administer a program like this.<p>Quick read looks like 2.8% off the top, for 0 risk (10&#x2F;349).<p>Total businesses receiving loans was 1.6M (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pymnts.com&#x2F;loans&#x2F;2020&#x2F;sba-lenders-approval-ppp-loans&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pymnts.com&#x2F;loans&#x2F;2020&#x2F;sba-lenders-approval-ppp-l...</a>)<p>Average money a bank made per loan was 10,000,000,000&#x2F;1,600,000 (assuming all banks made an equal distribution of loans)<p>Or $6250 per loan. Given that all loans ran out about 1 week after the program was started.<p>I imagine the person effort per loan was pretty variable, but that&#x27;s some pretty crazy capture by the banks.<p>(Banking sector employs almost 1.5M people), So even if every employee working at all banks, was allocated to work on one loan each for a week. (HINT THIS DIDN&#x27;T HAPPEN) the annualized salary for each of these people would have to be 6250*52, or 325K, which it&#x27;s not).<p>I guess my question, is how was the decision made to offer banks such a big kicker for administrating loans with nonzero, but practically 0 risk?<p>(of note, theoretically banks are going to need to do some serving of the loan over it&#x27;s lifetime, and deal with this loan forgiveness program, etc.. so if that&#x27;s the case and it&#x27;s more like 2-3 weeks of person work per loan, you still get some pretty big numbers, but they feel a bit more sane)
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brentmabout 5 years ago
Not a popular opinion but considering the effort involved, should they not have earned fees? Should they have donated their time and resources? I&#x27;m sure it took a monumental effort to pull it together with the lack of clarity being handed down and the volume of loans to process in a short period of time. If the government wanted to do for $0 fees they would have figured out how to do it themselves. If a private business has to do it then they should be paid. If we are complaining about this what about 3M and everyone else making tons of money off of PPE? Obviously it isn&#x27;t very palatable to hear about others making money off of this kind of thing but we need incentives for people to step up and help.
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eezurrabout 5 years ago
That&#x27;s about a 2% fee which doesn&#x27;t seem out of line with other transaction processing fees that are out there. That fee probably has built in insurance for fraud and other failures. And also the cost of the transaction. I bet that fee is the same fee as a year ago?
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antoncohenabout 5 years ago
Lawsuits claim banks prioritized loans to large businesses. JPMorgan disputes those allegations, claiming it processed loans fairly. By fairly it means it put all the small business loans in one large FIFO queue, and all the large business loans in a separate much shorter FIFO queue. Effectively prioritizing large business loans.
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1123581321about 5 years ago
We did our PPP loan for our agency through a small regional bank that bent over backwards to help local businesses understand the legislation and apply on time. The bank paid a bunch of salaries to be able to do this. It’s completely reasonable that they earned a small, disclosed-in-advance fee from our loan to pay for those operations.
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volakabout 5 years ago
Banks make somewhere around 450 billion in revenue each year. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.statista.com&#x2F;forecasts&#x2F;409713&#x2F;banking-revenue-in-the-us" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.statista.com&#x2F;forecasts&#x2F;409713&#x2F;banking-revenue-in...</a><p>This program made them 1&#x2F;3 of 1 month&#x27;s normal revenue
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solarhomaabout 5 years ago
No surprise here. Yes, these programs will help out small businesses. But, the rich need their cut first.<p>Hopefully investigative journalists will be able to find the corruption&#x2F;fraud in a few years.
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hateMyIdeasabout 5 years ago
The money ran out before our company could get 1k.<p>Another example how the 10% is taxed to pay for the 0.1%.
erikigabout 5 years ago
Some quick numbers:<p>- 10bn in Fees<p>- 4975 Lenders<p>- $2m per Lender<p>I think this number doesn&#x27;t seem unreasonable given the fact that the banks themselves are businesses - they have employees, training, technology, risks etc.
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jhwang5about 5 years ago
Bank charging 2% on this flow is criminal, in the sense that interest rates are nearly negative, so 2% is practically 10, 100X the rates banks can earn otherwise. It&#x27;s basically free money shoveled into banks, a massive boon.
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_iyigabout 5 years ago
Wish I lived in a world where $10 billion in graft got someone arrested. Jailed, if I’m recklessly ambitious.
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A4ET8a8uTh0about 5 years ago
I will admit that I am mildly aggravated by the roll out of CARES act for several different reasons. This is just a topping on the cake really. Yesterday, my wife told me that her doctor&#x27;s office is furloughing 7 people ( not her, but I am sure next move will include her too ) so I do get a little sour when I find out that companies with built-in access to financing ( publicly traded companies ) got approximately surprisingly high chunk of those funds(1). Needless to say, I am not unbiased, because of this.<p>It is however a little aggravating and a little reminiscent of 2008, where well connected get rescued, where the rest is left to fend for themselves. That is a recipe for pitchforks.<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.marketwatch.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;here-are-the-public-companies-that-got-coronavirus-aid-meant-for-small-businesses-2020-04-22?mod=home-page" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.marketwatch.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;here-are-the-public-compan...</a>
lonelappdeabout 5 years ago
The headline misses the point. The total means nothing out of context.<p>What&#x27;s the fee per loan?<p>&gt;Loans worth less than $350,000 brought in 5% in fees while loans worth anywhere from $2 million to $10 million brought in 1% in fees.<p>I&#x27;ve read that the average loan is $50K, so that&#x27;s $2500 per loan, which seems high, And 1% of a $1millio loan is ridiculous, as it&#x27;s not subsidizing the smaller loans, AND these loans are scaled to #employees, so the size of the loan is proportional to the #people benefited and so the fees should be per loan (cost based), not per $ lent.
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chris_vaabout 5 years ago
Maybe this is an unpopular opinion amidst the pitchforks, but do we not have better things to worry about at the moment?<p>The system is inefficient and unfair, great lets put it on the list of things to fix, but a ~3% fee is not world ending (unlike some other things) and seems like a low priority.
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mihaalyabout 5 years ago
I hope they will start some ad campaign soon with pretty words about how sensitive they are for the troubles of the society and how much they support all the efforts in these troubled times! Not controversial making profit on emergency measures, not at all! :&#x2F;
kqvamxurcaggabout 5 years ago
Larger customers will have relationship managers at the bank who guide them through the process step by step. Their customers likely even have their cell phone number so communication is good and low friction. With the support of accountants and lawyers who will have all information available to hand, I&#x27;m sure the application was a breeze.<p>The current crisis has been a real eye opener. Our entire government and economic system is bailing out corporations and preserving the wealth of asset owners at the expense of taxpayers and society. This should be a perfect opportunity for smaller companies to step in and win business from corporates who have engaged in monopolistic practices for years and engaged in excess risk taking. But that isn&#x27;t being allowed to happen because corporates are judged as too big to fail. I find this whole system intolerable.<p>It feels like we need to add more restrictions against corporates. Restrict their ability grow via M&amp;A, restrict executive compensation to a multiple of median income and stop them growing too large. I say this as a capitalist.
ksj2114about 5 years ago
This fee doesn&#x27;t seem that unreasonable, but I do think best solution is for businesses &#x2F; people to have deposit accounts at the fed
brenden2about 5 years ago
We live in a world where there are huge rewards for anyone with the right connections. Banks provide very little value, they are basically a glorified SQL database at this point. They&#x27;re not taking any risk, they&#x27;re not really creating any economic value, and yet the rewards they receive are enormous.<p>Watching all this going on makes me feel so disillusioned, and I don&#x27;t want to participate in society anymore.
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tmalyabout 5 years ago
This is all on Congress. They wrote this law that created these incentives for the banks.
carapaceabout 5 years ago
Seems unnecessarily divisive at a time when we need to pull together.
ackbar03about 5 years ago
Why am I not surprised
drawkboxabout 5 years ago
Anytime needed stimulus goes through banks, don&#x27;t be surprised if it never makes it out of said bank or to the intended locations as they are self-preservation first as expected.<p>Banks should help the river and get access to the flow, they shouldn&#x27;t be a dam that holds back the flow, filtering only for their customers or large companies masquerading as &quot;small business&quot;.<p>Had policy sent the money directly to companies from the SBA&#x2F;IRS, customers then would choose the banks to service that guaranteed government grant&#x2F;loan essentially. Much like the FAFSA system for student loans, you get your amount, then a servicer handles the actual loan but there is literally no risk to them as it is guaranteed.<p>Why we sent guaranteed money to be held up in banks and did information and credit checks, on already known information from the IRS, well we know why, to pilfer it.<p>Had they ran it a better way, using the actual market, directly to businesses&#x2F;individuals, that is lots of money out there for banks to go get and the market knows it is out there as well. Markets like knowing hundreds of billions and trillions are out there to go get. Make them earn the fees if they must.<p>Instead, it was a direct transfer from the Fed and treasury to QE that was pilfered by the usual suspects: hedge funds, market makers, foreign funds, oligarchs, wealth&#x2F;value extraction ops, naked short selling, short and distort and more. The SBA money was pilfered by banks and large companies. The &#x27;stimulus&#x27; for the economy, routed around the entire actual economy, never reaching individuals or true small business.<p>Companies that received SBA funding many are listed on the public markets. I doubt most people would call &quot;small business&quot; companies that have IPOed and been on the market for years. These companies have other access to funds, they just wanted the 1% loans and took from hundreds and thousands of small businesses that supply them, subscribe to their services, buy their software, consume their products, feed them and other services.<p>Examples of companies that got SBA PPP and other [1]:<p>- Drive Shack Inc. (DS) $5,276,742 - Golf company like TopGolf... wow. That would have funded many, many small businesses.<p>- New Age Beverages Corp. (NBEV) $6,868,400 - Revenues 250~ million...<p>Isn&#x27;t it safe to say if you have a stock ticker and one of 3812~ companies on the public markets that you aren&#x27;t &quot;small business&quot;?<p>How to fix it...<p>We need a micro small business emergency stimulus.<p>- Less than 50 employees across ALL locations, less than 2-3 million revenues and sole proprietors.<p>- There can be no gaps to allow this to go to the already serviced.<p>- Include sole proprietors and really small companies (&lt; 10 employees) with priority that matches their numbers in the market.<p>The current &quot;small business&quot; designation is really small to medium to large businesses. However, sole proprietors are 73% of all small business.<p>America is mostly small businesses.<p>SBA&#x2F;Chamber of Commerce has 30.2 million for companies under 500 people. [2]<p>Lots are sole proprietors or very small companies with &lt; 5 people.<p>22 million of the small businesses in the United States are individually operated, meaning that they have no other employees other than the owner.<p>99.9% of businesses in the United States are small businesses, owing to the rather large threshold of 500 employees, or fewer.<p>Small business is the engine of America.<p>Small businesses comprise what share of the U.S. economy?<p>Small businesses make up [3]:<p>- 99.7 percent of U.S. employer firms,<p>- 64 percent of net new private-sector jobs,<p>- 49.2 percent of private-sector employment,<p>- 42.9 percent of private-sector payroll,<p>- 46 percent of private-sector output,<p>- 43 percent of high-tech employment,<p>- 98 percent of firms exporting goods,<p>- 33 percent of exporting value.<p>It is time to help the lower&#x2F;middle, sole-proprietors and small business or America as we know it is much much different after this.<p>About 8 trillion in &#x27;stimulus&#x27; and QE, at a cost of 20k to every citizen, for that individuals got $1200 many haven&#x27;t got yet and small businesses finding out how small of fish they a really are.<p>The banks helped the big fish, but the big fish need the small fish to survive.<p>Money trickles up and down and all around, but money only trickles where other money is found.<p>This market is broken for lower&#x2F;middle and people or small business. It is gangbusters for wealth and value extraction ops. How long can this go on?<p>The stimulus for individuals, families and small business is vaporware, time for some vaporwave as we fade away into the ether.<p>Good luck wealth and big business with no one to skim from and no small business to use as research and development or suppliers.<p>Maybe it needs to be framed in the way that it is an additional bailout for their own companies and interests. Most of that money makes it back into banks, larger companies, wealth, top end etc. If consumers have purchasing power and small companies buy up their services, supply them, and are where they make their money broadly, maybe their self-interest will align with the actual market.<p>Our policies already downplay the importance of wages, consumer base purchasing power and just keep piling on the backs of a finite resource. How long do can the wealth extraction keep happening before there is none left and stagnation takes over in a big way? Rich people and large companies can only buy so much, the long tail of small businesses and consumer purchasing power is America, it is under attack.<p>Real wages and purchasing power have barely budged in 40 years [4].<p>Worker share of GDP being on a long dwindle down [5] and velocity of money is off a cliff [6], that is why we are so stagnant.<p>Richest 1% of Americans Close to Surpassing Wealth of Middle Class [7]<p>Money trickles up and down and all around, but money only trickles where other money is found.<p>If there isn&#x27;t purchasing power or demand, that is hard to create. Why are we widdling it down day by day, year by year, decade by decade?<p>What happens when The Giving Tree is a stump?<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;these-are-the-public-companies-that-got-small-business-loans-11587493742" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;these-are-the-public-companies-...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.chamberofcommerce.org&#x2F;small-business-statistics&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.chamberofcommerce.org&#x2F;small-business-statistics&#x2F;</a><p>[3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sba.gov&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;FAQ_Sept_2012.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.sba.gov&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;FAQ_Sept_2012.pdf</a> Source: U.S. Census Bureau, SUSB, CPS; International Trade Administration; Bureau of Labor Statistics, BED; Advocacy-funded research, Small Business GDP: Update 2002- 2010, www.sba.gov&#x2F;advocacy&#x2F;7540&#x2F;42371.<p>[4] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pewresearch.org&#x2F;fact-tank&#x2F;2018&#x2F;08&#x2F;07&#x2F;for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pewresearch.org&#x2F;fact-tank&#x2F;2018&#x2F;08&#x2F;07&#x2F;for-most-us...</a><p>[5] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fred.stlouisfed.org&#x2F;series&#x2F;W270RE1A156NBEA" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fred.stlouisfed.org&#x2F;series&#x2F;W270RE1A156NBEA</a><p>[6] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fred.stlouisfed.org&#x2F;series&#x2F;M2V" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;fred.stlouisfed.org&#x2F;series&#x2F;M2V</a><p>[7] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2019-11-09&#x2F;one-percenters-close-to-surpassing-wealth-of-u-s-middle-class" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2019-11-09&#x2F;one-perce...</a>
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exabrialabout 5 years ago
Side Note: NPR&#x27;s journalism of late has been refreshingly non-political.<p>Every article on CNN right now for me is a click bait headline with some weird mention of Trump like it&#x27;s some sort of requirement to get it to go to press.
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ss7proabout 5 years ago
Problem with the banks (and many other huger corporations in US ie: airlines) is that during prosperity all the profits are going to narrow set of people (board and investors) but during the crisis there&#x27;s always bailout using taxpayers money to save them. It essentially means that profits stay with the wealthy while losses are being spread across the poor. This is no longer capitalism but communism where they ruling party (boards and investors) are getting richer without the risk.
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