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Tolstoy’s Children’s Stories

162 pointsby smiljoabout 5 years ago

32 comments

goto11about 5 years ago
Important point many are missing: Folktales were not originally for children. They were told among adults after children had gone to sleep. But when folklorists (like the Grimm brothers) started collecting and publishing folk tales, it became a trend to publish sanitized edition for children.<p>Read something like the Arabian Nights tales in an uncensored version - these were clearly not intended for children anymore than 50 Shades of Grey are for children. The children&#x27;s editions are <i>heavily</i> sanitized.<p>I suspect their change into children literature was because of cultural changes - educated 19th century adults couldn&#x27;t take folktales serious anymore (except as anthropological studies) and found them childish. The same way that 19th century popular literature like Dumas and Verne became children&#x27;s books in the 20th century.<p>Walt Disney is often criticized in this context, but both Snow White and Cinderella are actually pretty faithful to the source material. Cinderella is just based on the Charles Perrault version of the story, not the Grimm version which contain a lot more maiming.
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ivanhoeabout 5 years ago
Those books shouldn&#x27;t be judged by today&#x27;s norms. They were not written for the children (nor parents... especially not parents) of today, but for children back then who lived in a completely different world.<p>For instance, in the version of Cinderella by Charles Perrault - the version that we all know - one of the evil stepsisters was advised by her mother to cut off her toes in order to fit the slipper. She almost fools the prince, but doves warn him about blood dripping from her foot. He then goes back again and tries the slipper on the other sister. She cut off part of her heel in order to get her foot in the slipper, and again the prince is fooled. While riding with her to the king&#x27;s castle, the doves alert him again about the blood on her foot.<p>How about that for a good night story?
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rosstexabout 5 years ago
<p><pre><code> Rock-a-bye baby, on the treetop. When the wind blows, the cradle will rock. When the bough breaks, the cradle will fall. And down will come Baby, cradle and all. </code></pre> or<p><pre><code> It’s raining, it’s pouring, The old man’s snoring. He went to bed And he bumped his head And he couldn’t get up in the morning. </code></pre> Tell me these ain&#x27;t dark.
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RcouF1uZ4gsCabout 5 years ago
There have been lots of comments about how dark children’a books were. But, back then, children’s lives were pretty dark. With the high infant and childhood mortality, a good proportion of children had lost a brother or sister. Given maternal mortality, many children had probably lost a mother in childbirth. Given the nature of farmwork and the primitive nature of medicine, many children probably had a father, uncle, etc who was killed or main in an accident. And that is before you consider the frequent wars in which soldiers roamed across the land raping, pillaging, and killing. Death would have been all around children.
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ginkoabout 5 years ago
This seems to be pretty much par for the course for 19th century children&#x27;s books. Compare them to the original versions of H.C. Andersen&#x27;s fairy tales or Hoffmann&#x27;s Struwwelpeter[1].<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Struwwelpeter" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Struwwelpeter</a>
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dan-robertsonabout 5 years ago
In case you skimmed the article after the first few paragraphs, note that the point is not that the stories are sad or grim but that they are only sad or grim. There is no moral or hate that leads to things happening. The characters just lives who’ve are sad.<p>I also read the article as lighthearted and humorous and so assumed some things may have been exaggerated it embellished slightly for effect.
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galaxyLogicabout 5 years ago
Check out the Mioomins, good for children and adults alike.<p>The series starts with books that are allegories for World War II like &quot;The Moomins and the Great Flood&quot; and &quot;Comet in Moominland&quot;. Good reading in these pandemic times not gory but all about seriousnes of the world we live in and how small humans and families can cope with that.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Moomins" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Moomins</a>
crazygringoabout 5 years ago
&gt; <i>Tolstoy’s tales are unusual in that they lack the depth of relationships — and even hatred — that the old folk tales have. There are no stories of wicked stepparents or lurking dangers in the woods. Instead, there is a kind of dead-end romanticism: bad thing happens; a person is sad; end of story. There isn’t even that much to talk to your children about: trees are nice, don’t cut them down so much? People are not all that happy?</i><p>Wow. The author seems to be missing the morals <i>entirely</i>. Just from browsing their story descriptions, the lessons seem to be about, respectively:<p>- The overwhelming power of grief, which you may wind up suffering when you choose to love<p>- Don&#x27;t be tricked by people trying to get you to enjoy yourself in a dangerous situation<p>- The feeling that makes you uncomfortable destroying beauty is a kind of conscience, so listen to it, for there is an intrinsic connection between beauty and life<p>- Happiness is misunderstood by nearly all -- it doesn&#x27;t come from material possessions, it comes from within<p>- People are supported by those around them, not diminished, so don&#x27;t treat those who surround you as unimportant or take them for granted<p>- If you tame an animal, you&#x27;re responsible for their well-being. You can&#x27;t &quot;go back&quot; or shirk your responsibilities, so think twice before you take on a personal commitment or you may generate suffering you never intended<p>Writers for the LA Review of Books are generally... supposed to be literary and really good at finding meaning in texts, heck even way more meaning than the author sometimes intended.<p>This author seems to be being deliberately obtuse about these stories. I&#x27;m not sure why. But these stories seem incredibly stimulating food-for-thought to talk with your children about.
darkersideabout 5 years ago
&gt; But frequently those stories are redeemed by a depth which feels archetypal: when Rapunzel’s prince falls from her tower and blinds himself in the rose bushes below, his blindness appears to have a meaning — it’s not just gratuitous bloodshed.<p>If I doubted my dismissal of this article, I felt vindicated by this line. Is the author really so blind as to believe that popular fairy tale endings are archetypal for any reason beyond the fact that they became popular? They were just as nasty and surprising back then, and it&#x27;s only repeated listenings and social acceptance that has made them appear to be any more child-appropriate than a screaming, dying tree.<p>FWIW, I generally believe kids are way more resilient to any of these things than we think they are. Like the poplar tree, in trying to protect them, we lead them to their own downfall.
riazrizviabout 5 years ago
I think classic folk tales were more macabre, but since consumers today are not interested in them so much it&#x27;s somewhat lost to us. We have Grimm&#x27;s Fairy Stories, but as the author points out, in most modern editions they edit out the darker ones. We have this Tolstoy collection because he is a famous author and people are interested in his stories. And guess what, they are super dark. Is that because Tolstoy was dark? No, it&#x27;s because the traditional stories of the time were much darker. Here&#x27;s an example of a Yiddish Folktale:<p><i>Moyshele and Sheyndele</i><p>Once upon a time there was a poor woodcutter who had a wife and two small children, a boy and a girl. The boy was called Moyshele, the girl Sheyndele. The woodcutter’s wife died and he married a second wife who was a very wicked woman and a cruel stepmother to the children. One day the woodcutter left the house to chop wood in the forest, and the stepmother got ready to go to market to do the Sabbath shopping. Before she left, she gave the children some food, putting Moyshele’s in a pot and Sheyndele’s on a plate. She said, “Moyshele, if you break the pot I’ll chop off your head, So you’d better not.” She told Sheyndele, “Sheyndele, Sheyndele, just you wait, I’ll chop off your legs if you break this plate.” Then she slammed the door and went to market. The children were afraid to eat lest they break something, but the rooster suddenly flew up on the table and knocked over the pot. It fell to the ground and broke into teeny-tiny pieces. Moyshele, seeing them, was terrified and began to cry. Sheyndele comforted him, saying, “Hush, Moyshele.Don’t cry.” And she took the shards of the pot and pushed them into a corner of the room. When the stepmother came home, she couldn’t find the pot. “Where is the pot?” she asked Moyshele. “The rooster broke it,” he said. The stepmother was very angry, but she pretended that nothing was the matter. Later she said to Moyshele, “Come with me and I’ll wash your hair.” So Moyshele went with her. She took him into another room and cut off his head, after which she cooked it for supper. When the woodcutter came back from the forest he said, “Where is Moyshele?” “I don’t know,” said the stepmother. Then they sat down at the table and ate the soup and the meat. Sheyndele, unaware of what she was eating, sucked the marrow from the bones and threw them out the window. A little mound of earth covered the bones and when the glad summer came again, a new Moyshele grew up out of it. Moyshele stood there on his little mound until, seeing a tailor pass by, he called, “Tailor, tailor, make me a pair of trousers and I’ll sing you a song:<p><pre><code> Murdered by my mother, Eaten by my father, and Sheyndele, when they were done, Sucked the marrow from my bones And threw them out the window.” </code></pre> The tailor, hearing the song, pitied him and made him a pair of trousers. Moyshele put them on, and then a shoemaker went by. Moyshele called, “Shoemaker, shoemaker, make me a pair of boots and I’ll sing you a song:<p><pre><code> Murdered by my mother, Eaten by my father, and Sheyndele, when they were done, Sucked the marrow from my bones And threw them out the window.” </code></pre> The shoemaker, hearing the song, pitied him and made him a pair of boots. Moyshele put them on, and then a hatmaker went by. Moyshele called, “Hatmaker, hatmaker, make me a hat and I’ll sing you a song:<p><pre><code> Murdered by my mother, Eaten by my father, and Sheyndele, when they were done, Sucked the marrow from my bones And threw them out the window. </code></pre> The hatmaker, hearing the song, pitied him and made him a hat. And Moyshele put it on and ran off to school.<p><pre><code> One log there, One log gone. As for my tale— My tale is done. </code></pre> - Weinreich, Beatrice. Yiddish Folktales<p>&gt; I’m all for showing your kids reality, and bringing them to the hospital or the wake or the funeral. But Tolstoy’s tales read more like an undigested rage at the world, unfortunately misdirected at children.<p>Yeah no. What&#x27;s the point of such a teaching story as the one above? Perhaps it&#x27;s a story to teach resilience; <i>Even if the world treats you so badly, that it sort of chews you up and spits you out, you can still make your way, though perhaps it might just be by telling your sad story and playing on people&#x27;s sympathies</i>.
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superimpositionabout 5 years ago
Here&#x27;s free collection of Tolstoy&#x27;s Fables for Children<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;publicdomainreview.org&#x2F;collection&#x2F;leo-tolstoys-fables-for-children-1904" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;publicdomainreview.org&#x2F;collection&#x2F;leo-tolstoys-fable...</a>
pmontraabout 5 years ago
&gt; The publicists of the most recent edition issued by Simon &amp; Schuster, who seemingly did not read it, write of this book, “children will be able to take away important lessons, as well as laugh at silly mishaps and characters, from this timeless collection.”<p>This is possible but unfortunately the author of the article decided not to answer his children:<p>&gt; “Daddy,” my stunned four-year-old son asked, “why did the lion die?”<p>&gt; “Daddy Daddy,” my daughter asked, still wondering about the now-dead lion’s lifestyle, “why did the people feed the lion puppies?”<p>Instead he &quot;took the book away and hid it from&quot; them. Not good parenting IHMO. Don&#x27;t read from that book again, OK, but find an answer to those questions.
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kenabout 5 years ago
&gt; I’m all for showing your kids reality<p>I really don&#x27;t think that&#x27;s why children&#x27;s stories used to be macabre. Nobody ever claimed these were accurate representations of reality.
wwwwewwwwabout 5 years ago
I&#x27;m not sure why people compare these stories to folktales. These are not folktales, they are short stories Tolstoy wrote for his school for peasant children, where he also taught.<p>They are not meant to be read at bedtimeto small children, but thoughtful reading material for kids of all ages who are learning to read. The kids who are old enough to read the stories would be old enough to appreciate the (often very sad) stories.
utopkaraabout 5 years ago
A lot of the children&#x27;s stories I heard growing up included violence of sorts. Not saying it was necessarily good, but it is very common, hence perhaps is either harmless or maybe beneficial in a convoluted way. fwiw, the stories kept me from wandering into abandoned old houses, tall thick bushes, or too far away from home; we were pretty much on our own when I was a kid.
billfruitabout 5 years ago
Not directly related, but many Soviet era children&#x27;s stories, by Sergei Mikalkhov, et al are very good and brilliantly illustrated.
hy56about 5 years ago
&gt; <i>If you do this, be sure to read something lighter afterward, like perhaps Anna Karenina’s suicide scene, or a biography of Sylvia Plath</i><p>Nobody, including the author, seems to have mentioned the cultural aspect in all this. Allow me:<p>Q: What is the difference between a Russian optimist and a Russian pessimist?<p>A: A Russian pessmist thinks that things can&#x27;t get any worse. A Russian optimist thinks they not only can, but will.
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downerendingabout 5 years ago
I&#x27;m still vaguely haunted by <i>Never Tease a Weasel</i>. Seen through children&#x27;s eyes, probably a lot of books targeting them are rather creepy.
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Igelauabout 5 years ago
I&#x27;ll have to check it out. I&#x27;ve always liked the unsanitized endings. The wolf fell upon Red and ate her -- the end. The wolf fell down the chimney and into the stew, and the smartest pig ate him... probably along with a few pieces of his brothers.<p>There&#x27;s one in the Grimm Brothers called &quot;The Knapsack, the Hat, and the Horn&quot; that&#x27;s an incredibly bleak fable about power and corruption.
ConanRusabout 5 years ago
Actually, as Russian i know that most of classic Russian literature (before revolution of 1917) is highly depressing. I was attending a school while USSR was still alive, and even with relatively small number of classic russian books passed thru Soviet censorship, it was always like this: sad and depressing. Tolstoy, Nekrasov, Dostoevsky, Chekhov - no difference.
skylarchunkabout 5 years ago
For children or for adults, the fatalist style of Tolstoy is what lends him the unmistakable charm. A part of our being, I think, will always desire to be liberated from the norm of not discussing pity or death without any moral undertone. Life and violence can be sad and violent, Tolstoy reminds us.
recursivedoubtsabout 5 years ago
The Gigantic Turnip is an delightful children&#x27;s book. I wore that thing to the spine with my kids:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Gigantic-Turnip-Aleksei-Tolstoy&#x2F;dp&#x2F;1905236581" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;Gigantic-Turnip-Aleksei-Tolstoy&#x2F;dp&#x2F;19...</a>
lihaciudanielabout 5 years ago
&gt;Anna Karenina’s suicide scene spoilers on side note, isn&#x27;t Tolstoy famous for being a Schopenhaeur influenced writers why did he had 13 children? He is a great writer nontheless
smiljoabout 5 years ago
Did we break their site? :(<p>Edit: seems to be back up with everything in order.
ytersabout 5 years ago
&quot;Ring around the rosy&quot; is about the plague.<p>&quot;12 days of Christmas&quot; and other tales and sings have hidden Christian symbolism due to persecution.
ertianabout 5 years ago
I don&#x27;t really agree with the author at all. His examples all seem like meaningful stories.<p>The lion in the zoo? He lives off other animals, but when he stops to get to know one he becomes so attached he can&#x27;t live without it. Could be a simple message about animal cruelty (IIRC, Tolstoy was vegetarian?). Could be a parable about aristocrats &amp; peasants, or capitalists and workers.<p>Escape of the Dancing Bear? The bear was recaptured because he fell into old habits. Be careful not to do the same.<p>Death of the Cherry Tree? Could just be a message that all things are living, stop and consider the damage you&#x27;re causing. The blasé attitude of the woodcutter is shocking: people can get used to anything. Possibly an analogy for war or other cruelty which we casually accept.<p>The King and the Shirt: money doesn&#x27;t buy happiness. It&#x27;s not sad, the poor man is legitimately happy. Possessions and worldly ties can bring unhappiness. And it&#x27;s ironic and thought-provoking, for kids.<p>The Old Poplar: obvious lessons about family ties. Don&#x27;t send grandpa to a home. And a neat lesson on systems: the obvious, common sense approach backfired because things were more complex and interdependent than they looked at first sight.<p>The Little Bird: some things are meant to be wild. Some things, when done, can&#x27;t be undone.<p>I honestly kinda like these stories. Not sure I&#x27;d read them to my 4-year-old, though.
neonateabout 5 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.md&#x2F;yBlli" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.md&#x2F;yBlli</a>
wallstprogabout 5 years ago
I much preferred the original title of the post -- why change it?
quothaabout 5 years ago
Those stories sound awesome, my kids would love them!
ytersabout 5 years ago
The author knows old kids tales are violent, but there is a meaning to thr tragedy. Tolstoy&#x27;s stories are just meaninglessly violent and tragic.
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1f60cabout 5 years ago
Is the site down?
rectangabout 5 years ago
&gt; * Tolstoy wrote them; they couldn’t be that bad. Now I sincerely wish I had never touched them.*<p>The reviewer is Disney&#x27;s useful idiot. Gotta stay away from Tolstoy — it&#x27;s not just disturbing, it&#x27;s actually dangerous!<p>Only Bowdlerized and Disneyfied happy happy joy joy for your kids!<p>And if you aren&#x27;t perpetually happy all your life, it&#x27;s not not that the universe is indifferent to human suffering, it&#x27;s that there&#x27;s something wrong with <i>you</i>.<p>&gt; <i>There isn’t even that much to talk to your children about: trees are nice, don’t cut them down so much? People are not all that happy?</i><p>Yeah. Maybe &quot;People are not all that happy&quot; would be a good thing for kids to learn.
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