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402 Payment Required, and why micropayments are doomed

116 pointsby artpiabout 5 years ago

30 comments

Animatsabout 5 years ago
Yes.<p>I&#x27;ve pointed out before that the enthusiasm for micropayments is from people who want to <i>collect</i> them, not those who want to <i>pay</i> them. Unlike credit cards, which, when introduced, were easy to sell to buyers but hard to sell to merchants, since the merchant pays fees.<p>Cryptocurrencies are not a magic bullet here. The technology for preventing double-spending is incredibly inefficient and slow. Transaction costs are high. Right now, a Bitcoin transaction costs at least US$5. It&#x27;s been as high as $20.
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phhabout 5 years ago
We already have micro-payments, and it&#x27;s called ads.<p>It is pretty transparent to the user, there is no per-transaction fixed cost (though the margin taken by Ad provider is pretty huge), and some people are living pretty nicely with it.<p>I agree with the various points this article makes, but it doesn&#x27;t mean micro-payments are a no go. Just make it as seamless as ads!<p>The article mentions subscription, but doesn&#x27;t mention the possibility of subscription-based micro-payments?<p>That&#x27;s what scroll.com, and I believe there solution has none of the issues mentioned in this article, even though it would still make sense as a 402 Payment Required! Of course you can&#x27;t generalize scroll.com everywhere, for many reasons. But I believe &#x2F;that&#x2F; idea is a start of making micro-payments a thing.
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cftabout 5 years ago
PayPal already has micropayments, 5c+5%<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.paypal.com&#x2F;us&#x2F;smarthelp&#x2F;article&#x2F;what-are-micropayments-faq664" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.paypal.com&#x2F;us&#x2F;smarthelp&#x2F;article&#x2F;what-are-micropa...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.paypal.com&#x2F;us&#x2F;webapps&#x2F;mpp&#x2F;merchant-fees#fixed-fees-micropayment" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.paypal.com&#x2F;us&#x2F;webapps&#x2F;mpp&#x2F;merchant-fees#fixed-fe...</a><p>Without this, my bootstrapped company that employed over 15 people would not have been possible.
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lazyjonesabout 5 years ago
Micropayments have already taken off. They&#x27;re extensively used in Steam (loot boxes, even c2c sales) and on Reddit. Implementations are simple and straightforward: pay someone who keeps your credit a larger amount and spend fractions of it with 1-2 clicks whenever you want. The confusion stems from the fact that people want to sell uninteresting stuff (and items of unknown quality, the &quot;cat in the sack&quot; as we say in German) on the Web and wrongly blame microtransactions.
Glyptodonabout 5 years ago
I&#x27;m not sold on the argument that US credit card swipe fees are a true floor, given that transaction fees fluctuate from country to country somewhat significantly, though I do agree there&#x27;s likely a &quot;single transaction floor.&quot;<p>That said, I&#x27;m not in agreement overall. I think there are likely many things that can be billed in &quot;sub-minimum-transaction-increments,&quot; it&#x27;s just that they only become worth charging when they exceed the floor. So I guess in my head most of it is tracking &quot;microdebt,&quot; and only sometimes is combining enough of the outstanding &quot;debt&quot; enough for it to be worth a payment.<p>It&#x27;s basically a permutation seen in every game with (much hated) in-game currency. Maybe there&#x27;s dirt cheap things to buy, but you still have to exchange to IGC at a $1:n floor.
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nottorpabout 5 years ago
Right, I know. A subscription is less than a Starbucks coffe. Old song.<p>Newsflash: perhaps I&#x27;d like to support more than a couple sites. Those coffees add up.<p>Also, I don&#x27;t do Starbucks coffee. It&#x27;s overpriced.
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xrdabout 5 years ago
This article assumes that things like transaction costs are fixed, and customer support is legally required.<p>If you removed those two assumptions, micropayments make sense.<p>Crypto currency actually can solve those problems elegantly. You can have low transaction costs. And, transactions can be anonymous and irreversible (depending on the currency).<p>Critics will rightly point out those promises are not always kept (ethereum gas prices, for example), but they are the goals. Lower transaction fees, I would assert, are not the goals of PayPal.<p>The problem is not technical. It&#x27;s that there isn&#x27;t mass adoption. If a well funded startup did a &quot;Fresno Drop&quot; they might be able to overcome that. That would be interesting and could be very effective.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;99percentinvisible.org&#x2F;episode&#x2F;the-fresno-drop&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;99percentinvisible.org&#x2F;episode&#x2F;the-fresno-drop&#x2F;</a><p>Full disclosure: I&#x27;m working on such a system and have a patent pending on the process.
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BitwiseFoolabout 5 years ago
As someone whose parents run a small business, I&#x27;ve found out that the average person doesn&#x27;t realize how complicated it actually is for businesses to get payments from customers. All of the overhead in payment processing happens because meticulous records need to be kept for transaction to happen (Account Balances, Payer&#x2F;Payee IDs, AML&#x2F;KYC requirements). All of this needs to be logged and audited in case of invesitigation or a charge reversal.<p>With cash you don&#x27;t have that problem - the transaction is physcial and immediate. But I doubt any micropayment system will get approval to transact money without anti-money laundering laws and transaction reversibility.
nolantaitabout 5 years ago
This article focuses on micropayments for consumers for something like movies or news subscriptions. But what about micropayments for something like micro work. Platforms like Amazon Mechanical Turk, Fiver, etc all build their own minimum wallet systems (must have $5 or more to cash out). I feel like the ability to pay small amounts to do work in parallel would be huge but remains fractured and clunky until this micropayments future matures
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arcticbullabout 5 years ago
Payers don&#x27;t want micropayments. They don&#x27;t want them because each time you spend, you have to make a decision. This leads to decision fatigue. Nobody wants to make a million individual tiny purchasing decisions.<p>This is why Netflix is so successful, but Apple&#x27;s pay-by-the-episode model is far less engaging, even though I wager for most people it&#x27;d be much cheaper.
rjmunroabout 5 years ago
&gt; ... every Credit Card processor charges a roughly similar rate for processing payments ... 2.9% + 30c of the fixed cost.<p>In Europe, this is not the case. The EU introduced a cap of 0.2% of the transaction value for consumer debit cards, and 0.3% for credit cards for the amount that banks can charge each other. So as a retailer, you can get 1.6% or better rates here, with no 30c minimum. People use credit cards every day to get bus tickets worth around $1-2 - that would be like 25% of revenue if there was a fixed 30c amount or similar.
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uberneoabout 5 years ago
Simple example of MicroPayments using Bitcoin Lightning Network - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;micropaylink&#x2F;status&#x2F;1231255048509952002?s=20" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;micropaylink&#x2F;status&#x2F;1231255048509952002?...</a>
sneakabout 5 years ago
Micropayments won’t take off because a service to send or collect them is illegal in the US without carding every user and $1mm-per-state legal and licensing fees to be a money transmitter.<p>This was to be my next company, and it was effectively banned.<p>We have all of the tech to anonymously demand a real-time irreversible penny payment for a pageload, a download, or an API call. Pervasive, suspicionless financial surveillance demands of the government have made the resulting businesses mostly impossible.
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seph-reedabout 5 years ago
I really enjoy the BAT system in Brave. It&#x27;s often broken, or the person I want to donate to doesn&#x27;t take BAT tips. It&#x27;s also hard to convert USD into BAT. But I keep on wanting to use it, and assume that eventually they&#x27;ll figure it out.
8bitsruleabout 5 years ago
When the &#x27;micropayment&#x27; idea first came around decades ago, I got the impression that it would let us voluntarily send a little change to individuals who&#x27;d posted something that was &#x27;worth&#x27; looking at&#x2F;hearing <i>to us</i>.<p>Had that option ever arisen, I&#x27;d have &#x27;sent&#x27; x cents <i>directly</i> to the account of hundreds of creators. Because it was simple and person-to-person. Now and then, I&#x27;d have &#x27;sent&#x27; x dollars to -someone- who&#x27;d created something of extraordinary value ... <i>to me</i>.<p>In my view, the rewards collected by brokers are usually not deserved, and the rewards for streamers highway robbery. A &#x27;facilitator&#x27; at cost+ (limited) is a different ballgame.<p>The idea - simple, direct, voluntary, user-chosen &#x27;rewards&#x27; P2P - never became a reality. I regret that. A cent, a nickel, a dime - anyone could play - from 100,000 people in a year (or even longer-tail) amounts to a very tangible reward, and valuable feedback. I don&#x27;t need anyone telling me what something is worth <i>to me</i>; the creator does.
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mmm_grayonsabout 5 years ago
There are a few people pushing micropayments as a means to support independent content creators etc., but most are pushing them because it&#x27;s well-known that people will spend more if you charge them small amounts many times. See the 99c app plus 99c more for each small thing model. That&#x27;s the reason why I don&#x27;t like them: because they&#x27;re bad for me as a consumer.
asciimikeabout 5 years ago
Not entirely related since this is less of a peer-to-peer and more of a &quot;how do we solve things like paying for website views&quot;, but I really liked Rivest&#x27;s approach for &quot;Electronic Lottery Tickets as Micropayments&quot;[1], as it keeps the amount transacted high enough to avoid transaction costs being a material amount, while also meaning that customers aren&#x27;t charged that much for any individual transaction.<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;people.csail.mit.edu&#x2F;rivest&#x2F;pubs&#x2F;Riv97b.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;people.csail.mit.edu&#x2F;rivest&#x2F;pubs&#x2F;Riv97b.pdf</a>
unexaminedlifeabout 5 years ago
I think there are certain &quot;properties&quot; that will need to exist in a truly sustainable micro-payment system. One of which was discussed, but only to expose why the author doesn&#x27;t think micro-payments will work.<p>I think the system will need to allow a user to allocate a flat monthly total they&#x27;re willing to spend on micro-payments. Then, as the user accumulates more and more people they want to pay, the total gets split evenly (or at a designated ratio) across all.<p>Sort of like the saying &quot;give what you can, take what you need&quot;.<p>I think there are several opportunities here:<p>1) I think government needs to be involved so they can create a new &quot;designation&quot; so we can provide rules this new designation follows. Most obvious of which would be taxes.<p>2) I think as the world becomes more and more connected, there will be a real need for tooling to allow users to manage the 10&#x27;s or 100&#x27;s of thousands of people they&#x27;re paying with micropayments.<p>3) Probably would be good for standards to exist, so interconnected, de-centralized systems can keep &quot;subscribers &#x2F; payers&quot; up-to-date with the latest from all applicable platforms, with all of the people they&#x27;re currently paying.<p>Tons more, but not sure anyone will read this so won&#x27;t go into too much detail...
k__about 5 years ago
Probably a right assumption.<p>As long as you can&#x27;t do payments well under $1 things are doomed.<p>Just look at camming sites.<p>You buy 100tokens for 10€ and can &quot;tip&quot; people ¢10 if you like.<p>This works pretty well, and I think people would be happy to pay like ¢10-¢50 en masse for all kind of stuff if it was possible.
jpindarabout 5 years ago
Micropayments work fine in the Open Simulator community. Gloebits are the most popular kind.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gloebit.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gloebit.com&#x2F;</a>
PaulDavisThe1stabout 5 years ago
The blurb at the end of this article about the &quot;gravity of rates&quot; is seriously unglobal in its scope.<p>What can be considered a &quot;high&quot; rate in Bangladesh is going to be very different from Norway or Switzerland.<p>If you&#x27;re doing business globally, the question of an appropriate &quot;rate&quot; or &quot;price&quot; is vexing, and isn&#x27;t solved with glib western-industrial myopia in which you limit yourself the world&#x27;s 0.001%. Unless of course that is precisely what you want.
mD5pPxMcS6fVWKEalmost 5 years ago
I am actually using one such micropayment system. This is the recaptcha solver that solves every recaptcha I encounter on any web page, and I pay 3 cents for that service. I refill my account with $5 once every few months. No decision is involved, in many cases I overpay, but no complains here, still worth it. So if a mechanism exists that allows to automate the decision &quot;pay or not to pay&quot;, even if the mechanism is not perfect, it could work.
m0lluskabout 5 years ago
Starbucks can make a huge business selling coffees for a few bucks, but it is completely impossible for anyone to do that with articles on the Internet. Sure, Mac. Sure.
maehwasuabout 5 years ago
Theoretical articles like this (&quot;proving&quot; that X won&#x27;t work) are almost always doomed to be wrong, because you can&#x27;t enumerate all possible ways that something COULD work, but won&#x27;t.<p>A shorter way to say that is that something can fail thousands of times, but only has to succeed once. If the right technical, social and business factors come together, you get working micropayments.
satvikpendemabout 5 years ago
I would hate to have microtransactions on the web, could you imagine paying to see every webpage? It doesn&#x27;t even have to be a large amount, just the psychology of free versus paid is quite powerful to compel the user to not use as much for fear of overspending. I can see it being useful for small transactions such as services but not in the general web.
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jedbergabout 5 years ago
I&#x27;m sort of shocked this isn&#x27;t already solved. Mozilla, Google, Microsoft, and Apple could cement themselves as the &quot;only viable browsers&quot; by solving this. Here is how I see it:<p>- Form a consortium (just like the competing banks did in the 50s to create Visa).<p>- Google, Apple, and Microsoft already have expertise in collecting payments and running services, which they can lend to the consortium.<p>- Each member creates a UI in their own browser for micropayments that is backed by the consortium.<p>- The UI has the ability to add funds (processed by the consortium) and set budgets and have little check boxes for &quot;ask me every time&quot; or &quot;automatically pay if below 1 cent&quot; or &quot;allow up to $5 &#x2F; mo on this web page&quot; or lots of other budget options so that you don&#x27;t have to think about it every time.<p>- When you go to a page, they can throw up a request for payment (which if you&#x27;ve already made a budget decision you don&#x27;t even see as a user), you send a token, they pass the token to the consortium who moves the money from your account to theirs.<p>- The consortium pays out to web pages when they have earned more than $10 (just like Adwords!) and generates a 1099 or equivalent. They take a piece of pie at this point.<p>And now if you want an ad free experience, or want to use a site that requires micropayments, you must use one of those browsers. And the site owners can offer both. Send back a payment request, if it fails, show ads.<p>Heck, even if Google didn&#x27;t want in, Apple, Mozilla, and Microsoft could pull it off without them (they still have about 38% of the market).<p>You can secure it using standard crypto. The browser generates a private&#x2F;public key pair. The website generates a keypair. Both sends the public key to the consortium. When you make a payment, you generate a message that says &quot;I pay foo.com 1 cent&quot; and then sign it. Foo.com takes the message, wraps it up and says, &quot;I want 1 cent&quot; and signs it. The consortium verifies the signatures, makes sure the amounts add up, and then sends back an &quot;OK&quot; response if the user has the funds available.<p>They key here is that if those four agree on a UI and agree to a central payment processor, they have enough pull that website owners will want to use the service. Especially if there are no per transaction fees.<p>This also solves the onboarding problem for website owners. It pushes it to the consortium. Who can push it right into their parent companies. Google could automatically tie payment to your Google account, and so could Apple and Microsoft. It would be part of the UI.<p>In fact it would be a good workaround for Google in the new &quot;do not track me&quot; world.<p>People block ads because they are annoying, and trackers because they get no perceived benefit.<p>But payments provide benefit to the user, so they would be more willing to make the payment, thus providing tracking data. And for Google it would help cut Facebook out of the tracking because then they could encourage blocking tracking while accepting payments!
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betimslabout 5 years ago
Hah, &quot;doomed&quot;. Micro payments are just getting started mate ;)
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godotabout 5 years ago
I was a cofounder of a micropayments paywall &#x2F; subscription startup that operated for about 3.5 years, several years ago. (We shut down due to lack of growth and running out of money)<p>We mostly tried to sell to news&#x2F;magazines publishers. The points that the article author brought up are all good points; but what we kept seeing was that it wasn&#x27;t the consumers who were unwilling to pay, it was the publishers who were unwilling to try a new model. Whenever a site with quality content integrated with us, the percentage of visitors who paid was more decent than you&#x27;d imagine. What we couldn&#x27;t do was convincing a sizable national-level publisher to use us. We had various niche content sites and some local region newspapers integrate with us and they actually saw a pretty good payers to visitors ratio. Some niche content sites even made pretty good revenue using our paywall product.
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yoavaabout 5 years ago
Really enjoyed reading this one. A fresh perspective, at least for me
clarkmoodyabout 5 years ago
The LSAT protocol[0] implements the HTTP 402 code with payment performed over the Lightning Network, which has minescule fees and instant settlement.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lsat.tech&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lsat.tech&#x2F;</a>