So I've now been WFH for 2 months and honestly I hate it. Work was already flexible enough such that if you wanted to WFH you could. By convention, people would most often WFH on Wednesdays. I liked this timing of people doing it at the same time.<p>But communication and collaboration is just much harder work remote and you can't change my mind. I'm sure you can work hard to make it almost as good but it's never going to be better (IMHO).<p>I of course miss the meals and snacks.<p>Many people who work at these companies live in big cities where they don't have huge amounts of space and it's not conducive to being productivity, particularly if you live with other people, if you can't get some form of separation.<p>Those of you who are claiming this will be some form of revolution I think are naive. I've found that advocates of WFH are mostly motivated by that's what they want to do more than anything else. I mean that's fine but it often leads to thinly-veiled, self-serving, biased arguments and proclamations of the benefits to everyone.<p>If you need an office anyway you don't really save anything by WFH unless you oversubscribe your work areas (eg hot-desking) and that has its own problems.<p>All-remote might work best. I've seen this claimed but have no direct experience with it. I do know that mixed WFH and in the office is nearly always detrimental to the remote people and the team as a whole (IME).<p>I just don't think a company with 50,000+ employees can operate this way indefinitely.
Is it going to be a thing on HN now where the top thread for every announcement of a company embracing Remote Work will be from someone complaining about not liking Work-From-Home and 50+ replies discussing about "WFH vs office" or discussing their own personal preferences? I am starting to be astonished by the amount of supposedly-intelligent people who are completely missing the forest for the trees.<p>What we are witnessing might be a historical shift as big as Nixon re-opening with China, and the top comment is really complaining about some missing perks? How about start thinking of how many people who live in these big tech centers only because of their jobs and how many will just leave these cities once it is become accepted practice to work at a Canadian company while you live in the Caribbean? Or maybe start thinking that people who used to complain about H1B workers bringing the salary down now having to face competition from some random guy in Romania who can code circles around you and can accept a job at one quarter of your salary? Or how about we discuss the opportunities for startups that will come from this?<p>Also, start thinking if you are a VC and soon you will actually have to leave Sand Hill because no one will be crazy enough to move there to sleep on someone else's dishwasher hoping to make it big.<p>Personally, every announcement from an established company that is moving to a Remote-First (or Digital by Default, call it whatever you like) mentality is <i>thrilling</i>. Is anyone from Shopify here reading HN? I was already planning to apply for them but this announcement made me even more interested.
Remote-first is the future. I'm not sure why anyone would be against it. No one is forcing you to work from home. From a compliance and operations perspective a remote-first company is effectively forced to do a lot of things many companies do not or will not undertake:<p>- Make meetings accessible to everyone<p>- Communicate more effectively and transparently internal to the organization (and even externally, for the adventurous types)<p>The main "downsides" of working from home (which is not necessarily remote-first) - not seeing your colleagues in person, life <-> work separation, etc. will be a new industry that will end up resolving itself. I've seen office space costs. It would be cheaper to fly literally every employee out once a quarter and throw a giant party than to maintain an office space sized for the same amount of people by an order of magnitude in a large, popular city (NYC office space is approximately ~$100/sqft/month - a desk sized for two monitors, a keyboard and writing space is about 2 x 4 minimum, so 8sqft, or $800/month just for a single person in a nice space)<p>In other words, being forced to do anything - whether that was working from home or from an office - is an oppressive activity. Remote-first simply gives back that freedom of choice. Companies can maintain more minimalist offices for those who insist, and coworking spaces will grow for those who don't like the office and want separation, and finally those who have the space in their homes can work from home.<p>I'd be curious to hear a good argument against all organizations that can be remote-first being remote-first.
I really hope this doesn't become a bigger trend. Shopify was a company I was seriously considering working at in the future, but this would probably disqualify them. Working from home once a week sounds great to me, but doing it full time would drive me insane. Virtual meetings are awful for me, and you miss out on so much of the discussion that happens outside of the meeting - I think most of the important discussions I have with people are informal, either walking to or from meetings or just sitting in the office and talking for a few minutes. Communicating over video is also a lot harder for me since you miss out on a lot of the nonverbal cues that come across a lot better (and with lower latency) in person.<p>Outside of just being harder to communicate virtually, I really need the change of scenery and social interaction that comes with an office. Sure you can get that by joining different social groups outside of work, but that requires lots of intentional effort, and I actually enjoy hanging out at work and going to lunch with my coworkers. And the office has lots of perks like snacks and meals which can't be easily replicated at home (I mean I don't mind cooking, but I get much better lunches at work than the sandwich I would make for myself). I can't think of a working situation much better than going to an office where I have all of the food I need, a properly set up workstation, and coworkers I am able to talk to in person and go to lunch/dinner/social activities with. To me that is far better than sitting in my home alone all day (and I don't even have kids, which would be a whole other set of distractions).
People are going to change their tune once the paycuts start coming. There is no reason to pay SF money to someone living in the Midwest. $80k a year is comfortable most places. I hope remote first people like the suburbs and country because there is no reason to live in the city with no office.<p>The real truth though is most people are far less productive remote because it requires proactive communication and self discipline that just don’t appear because now you are working remotely.<p>This is to virtue signal and get out of expensive real estate in Civic Center SF in Twitter’s case. That area is a zombie apocalypse.<p>If you are fully remote then anyone in the world can do your job. Supply goes up prices go down. I bet execs will get paid the same though.
I am curious about the sustainability of work from home for truly team-based work.<p>I get to develop features independently, so if I am given the spec, I have no need to speak to anyone for the rest of the day except for a couple messages with QA. For me, it is great.<p>But I am essentially a microservice with defined inputs and outputs. For the people who actually work in teams (rather than me who is part of a team but works independently), this seems to be a miserable experience.<p>Anecdotally, while productivity seems to remain at a high level, a lot of that seems to be enabled by employees working more hours and being always available.
I'm glad a few companies are being dragged kicking and screaming into the XXIst century. I have had to turn down attractive job offers because they wanted me to relocate to do a job that can be done just as effectively -- more effectively even -- remotely.<p>I spent 7 years working purely remotely with a globally-distributed all-remote team for a mostly remote company. I'm not impressed by armchair arguments of "it won't work" because I've done it and it works great. Nor am I impressed by the argument of "I don't like it so no one should do it" because I don't like commuting or working in a rigid office regime so my counter is "I don't like it so no one should do it" right back.<p>Also, I spent a year working in the building beside Shopify's head office and the 1-to-3 hour commute (each way) and downtown parking fees would be a big incentive for me to choose remote work if I was an employee there. So good on them.
Consider the domino effect of these decisions. With WFH culture rising:
(Disclosure, I'm 100% in favour of WFH and been doing it for past ~5 years)<p>- Commute time is reduced to seconds/minutes<p>- Driving or taking public transportation plummets<p>- Fuel consumption is vastly reduced, taking care of Pollution as well<p>- Rush hour peaks flattens. might still have traffic, but it won't be because of volume of cars. like from accidents or road work<p>- Cook/eat at home vs. going out for lunch solo or with colleagues<p>- Work from home or sometimes go to nearby cafe, the rise of nearby desk options<p>- Dressing up for work, replaced with pijamas! Who needs a suit or any formal wear?<p>- Suburban expansion, city planning project have to be completely revised.<p>- Location becomes irrelevant, housing/rent costs will displace huge amount of families<p>- Office space occupancy plummets and thus impacting commercial real estate. Might see a plan for retrofitting office buildings into residential properties which will increase the inventory of homes and reduction of housing costs in major cities<p>- Group meetings and gathering going digital, will also prevent spread of viruses and general sickness, impacting health care industry and pharmaceuticals<p>- and so many other direct or indirect dominos I haven't mentioned or considered...<p>= Conclusion: Savings are huge for both employees and employers but other in-direct industries will have to reinvent or disappear.
Square flew under the radar compared to Twitter coverage but it too is on the same policy as Twitter given Jack is CEO of both. Noteworthy because it has a similar number of employees, an even larger market cap, and HQ'ed in the same location.
If I had a really nice detached home with a wife & children then working from home permanently would be the dream.<p>I don't. I live in a flat and live by myself. The only physical people I talk to are cashiers or delivery drivers.<p>If your life is further on than others or you have a nightmare capital commute then I can see WFH being the way forward. But personally I like to go to the office for social interactions and the banter that happens within. Just going to the shop for lunch with a colleague makes my day. That burger that you all decide to go for in the pub around the corner and have a cheeky pint alongside, even better!<p>This permanent WFH is already making me feel separated and even lonelier than normal.
Another one. This is a big-and-getting-bigger deal.<p>I'm keeping track of announcements here: <a href="https://airtable.com/shrC1mvKjwntaqocO/tbl73UY1jDmReLge7" rel="nofollow">https://airtable.com/shrC1mvKjwntaqocO/tbl73UY1jDmReLge7</a>
The biggest positive to companies going all digital especially at Spotify's scale is the cost savings.<p>The problem with companies that have started in Urban centers is that many of their employees don't have the "extra" bedroom in their house to be able to accommodate for this new work from home scenario.<p>This is especially true in NYC. Where apartments are usually significantly smaller than anywhere else. And if both adults in the house hold are working from home, often times one of them ends up in a closet taking zoom calls.
Tweet content:<p><i>As of today, Shopify is a digital by default company. We will keep our offices closed until 2021 so that we can rework them for this new reality. And after that, most will permanently work remotely. Office centricity is over.</i><p>— Tobi Lutke, Shopify CEO
People have commented the impact of this shift on SF/NYC etc, but based on this announcement the impact on smaller tech hubs will be even more devastating. Why would you now open a office in a smaller tech hub when you can hire someone from anywhere ? The impact of this in Canada can be huge
How does corporate security handle permanent work-from-home? It seems that there would be vastly more risks added.<p>E.g. When Joe Employee walks into the office, we know it is him and what he does and where he works. At home, Joe Employee might have a friend who looks over his shoulder at the project launch document he is completing, at the financials that are being submitted to the CFO.
Related: September 25, 2019 | <a href="https://torontolife.com/city/inside-shopifys-new-nine-floor-office-with-plenty-of-craft-beer-and-a-rooftop-terrace/" rel="nofollow">https://torontolife.com/city/inside-shopifys-new-nine-floor-...</a><p>> Canada’s tech darling Shopify—the online platform used to sell everything online, from wallpaper to roasted almonds—has just moved into their new King Portland Centre digs. The quickly growing company (they currently have 700 employees in Toronto and have committed to doubling that number by 2022) has taken over the top nine floors of this 15-storey, Hariri Pontarini–designed tower. Shopify will be keeping their Spadina and Wellington office and plan to add a third location at the Well once that development is complete. This new office at 620 King Street West will house around 450 “Shopifolk,” which is what the company calls its employees.
Seems like permanent remote-optional is rapidly becoming the competitive equilibrium in tech.<p>As tooling improves, there is some point at which gains from expanded recruiting pool + real estate savings outweigh coordination/culture costs of remote. Beyond this it will be irrational to force physical presences (for many roles, at least) and there'll be no going back.
It's not just real-estate to consider. You need security guards, facility/maintenance personnel. Utility costs, including raised flooring for your in-house networking/data center. Phones for each desks, office furniture. You need Becky down in Accounting to be the person ordering the office furniture for new hires. Sally in IT keeps the VoIP phones working in-office. Bob in Networking runs cables between floors so Marketing can have better WiFi and uses top of the line Cisco WiFi repeaters. Sam in the Maintenance department assembles those sweet mesh chairs that Becky orders and also makes sure the vending machines and break room is stocked full of snacks. Karen, the contracts vendor just signed a new long-term agreement with a local ISP for full gigabit fiber connectivity to the office.<p>In reality, it's probably 3x savings on top of just real-estate.
Looks like Facebook is announcing the same:<p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/zuck/posts/10111935689155051" rel="nofollow">https://www.facebook.com/zuck/posts/10111935689155051</a>
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/zuck/videos/10111936118050541/" rel="nofollow">https://www.facebook.com/zuck/videos/10111936118050541/</a>
This feels very much like a shock response, not a choice. I would expect in 5 years a rediscovery of a more office centric culture<i>:<p>“Informal whiteboarding saves me so many meetings!” “It’s great to get to know your coworkers as people!” “Relationships with colleagues actually matter!”<p></i>(Though i can’t see going back to pre covid office centricity)
To add some counterpoints to the WFH criticism here, my team's also been working from home for the last two months and I'd honestly prefer to never go back to the office.<p>I have a unique situation since I can't hear well, and everyone being on WFH has been a huge benefit for me: since everyone's got their own microphone/camera/etc, they come through clearly enough that my captioning app can actually understand them well - typically I get captioning as live CART through a crap conference room phone. Being able to hook my captioning app on my phone up to my laptop's audio out and jump on a Teams call with just a few minutes' notice has also been a huge benefit in easily being able to collaborate with my team and talk through problems.<p>I'd worked from home before, but never in this kind of remote-first/remote-only scenario, and now that I've gotten a taste of it I kind of never want to go back. I understand that other people are more extroverted than I am, and can hear normally, and it's not an ideal situation for them - but it's been pretty awesome for me.
> Office centricity is over.<p>I hope this mindset carries over to other companies who are committing to allow employees to stay home. There's more to remote working than staying at home. The whole culture of the company has to embrace it.
What is the long term downward pressure on salary and compensation with all these companies going full remote? It’s true many companies are paying SV salaries for remote work, but how long will this last when the labor pool opens up?
So Twitter, Square, Coinbase, and now Shopify. I wonder how many other companies will allow this and what this shift will lead to. I imagine this will lead to an exodus out of the Bay Area and possibly to places like Tahoe, Santa Cruz, Marin, and a corresponding shift in real estate prices. No real advantage to living in a tiny apartment in a city if you can't go to concerts, bars, restaurants, and now can WFH where ever you want.<p>My question is how companies will handle cost of living differences and if salaries will be adjusted based on locations? Or can I take my California salary to Seattle and pay no income taxes?
As a college student just entering the job market, this trend will be an absolute nightmare if it continues to its natural terminus (all tech companies permanently and primarily WFH).<p>My current internship has been WFH for the past ~2 months and it has drastically reduced how much I actually enjoy my job. Talking with my coworkers and the office atmosphere in general was a large part of why I enjoyed my job, and that has been reduced to a daily standup over Zoom and a handful of strictly work-related Slack messages when necessary. I understand there are some people who simply like to clock in and clock out but for people like me for whom the office is a large source of regular socialization, working from home is incredibly lonely.<p>It seems as though a large amount of people pushing for WFH situations are more senior engineers, especially those with children or other concerns at home. For a moment, just put yourself in the shoes of a junior engineer or fresh grad who is new to the job or the industry in general and remember your first day on your first job. Probably the only thing that relieved some of the stress or anxiety was a friendly coworker, or the ability to grab a mentor to answer questions sitting just a few feet away. WFH, no matter the technology, cannot create a substitute for this.
Remote-first is the future. I'm not sure why anyone would be against it. No one is forcing you to work from home. From a compliance and operations perspective a remote-first company is effectively forced to do a lot of things many companies do not or will not undertake:<p>- Make meetings accessible to everyone<p>- Communicate more effectively and transparently internal to the organization (and even externally, for the adventurous types)<p>The main "downsides" of working from home (which is not necessarily remote-first) - not seeing your colleagues in person, life <-> work separation, etc. will be a new industry that will end up resolving itself. I've seen office space costs. It would be cheaper to fly literally every employee out once a quarter and throw a giant party than to maintain an office space sized for the same amount of people by an order of magnitude in a large, popular city (NYC office space is approximately ~$100/sqft/month - a desk sized for two monitors, a keyboard and writing space is about 2 x 4 minimum, so 8sqft, or $800/month just for a single person in a nice space)<p>In other words, being <i>forced</i> to do anything - whether that was working from home or from an office - is an oppressive activity. Remote-first simply gives back that freedom of choice. Companies can maintain more minimalist offices for those who insist, and coworking spaces will grow for those who don't like the office and want separation, and finally those who have the space in their homes can work from home.<p>I'd be curious to hear a good argument against all organizations that <i>can be</i> remote-first being remote-first.
I find this strange as they've just recently opened brand new fancy offices in Toronto. As I've visited these offices, you could see through the glass windows of meeting rooms, people brainstorming in groups on whiteboards and presumably working together on solving interesting problems. I'm not sure if working from home is conducive to this type of group problem solving/brainstorming sessions.
What's surprising isn't that a company like Shopify is going remote-first.<p>It's that it was ever <i>not</i> remote-first in the first place.<p>The now-passing era of startups and big tech companies centering their workforce around physical offices will be looked back on as one of the most strange and illogical aspects of early 21st-century business!
WFH makes a lot of sense when you have a team of people that are used to meeting in person and are on the same time zone.<p>Daily stand-up meetings? Easy.<p>Weekly team and one-on-one meetings? Easy.<p>Knowing when your coworkers are working? Easy.<p>My team is mostly remote, diverse location, diverse ages/demographics. Getting everyone on Slack was hard enough. Having people report when they are actually contactable is impossible. And now that Slack removed presence from their API I have to rely on every more metrics to measure my team.<p>I should be using many metrics all along? No that's stupid, the reason I have employees is so I can build relationships with good people. If everything was metrics and work whenever you want that's called programming, not managing.
I really enjoy working from home however I have realized that I have become increasingly unhappy with the communication on my team. Getting answers to simple yes/no questions takes hours. Someone will ask me a question, I'll reply within a few seconds asking for clarification and then radio silence for the next 90 minutes. Personally, I also feel that I'm learning less in some areas.<p>This is not a commentary on WFH in general but I think most people who endorse 100% remote work do the type of work where they get their assignment and then go sit in the corner and bang it out with headphones on and not the type of work that requires active communication and collaboration.
Most going this direction are, rightly, treading WFM as people treated travel reductions. Few are saying you never work face to face for any reason ever... but it shouldn’t be the default without any reason. For better or worse the days of just turning up at an office everyday by default are likely over in many places.<p>Same with travel. Default should be a Zoom (or similar) but if an in person meeting or workshop is warranted then do it and just be prepared to justify the travel cost. Offices are very expensive so rightfully so companies are re-evaluating how much commercial real estate they truly need to execute their mission successfully.
I know a lot of people like working from home, and I like the option, but I'm personally more of a fan of being in the office. I feel more productive and I like having the ability to talk to my coworkers.<p>I've seen a lot of people saying that working from home is objectively better, and I think that that is a bit of a radical claim. I rent a room in a beaten up house, so I have about 130ft2 of personal space, a shared kitchen, and a shared bathroom. There are other people like me who also feel like they're stuck in a bubble, especially now that they can't see their friends and family, or even strangers at a coffee shop.
Even tho all those companies are shifting to perma WFH, still it's utterly impossible to be considered if you work from Europe, relocation must happen anyway. Wondering if this will change at some point as well :)
<a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-21/shopify-is-joining-twitter-in-permanent-work-from-home-shift" rel="nofollow">https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-21/shopify-i...</a> has a bit more background and a video interview. (via <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23259684" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23259684</a>)
Great news. I am looking forward to a decentralized society, where people can choose to live where they want to live. Not everything has to happen in San Francisco or Seattle. Many will cherish the freedom to live near friends/family elsewhere, or in a different political climate, or with a more rural lifestyle. For forward thinking companies that lean into remote work, it will be a huge pull for talent away from companies that may not make this change.
The number of people in this thread seemingly fine with losing 1-2 hours a day for their entire working life simply <i>commuting</i> is just astonishing to me.
>we now have the opportunity to be joined by a whole lot of incredible individuals from around the world that otherwise couldn’t because of our previous default to proximity.<p>Wow, so they'll be hiring non-Canadians by the majority now?
Interesting. I wonder how this will affect the economies of places like Ottawa, with Canada not having the type of Tech Sector the US does.
This is huge because Shopify is a big company and will likely get much bigger in the next few years. Most fully remote companies are small. We cannot know for sure if it will stick. I remember Yahoo telling their employees to return to the office. But looks like this time it's going to be different.
I'm tracking remote work announcements: <a href="https://airtable.com/shrC1mvKjwntaqocO/tbl73UY1jDmReLge7" rel="nofollow">https://airtable.com/shrC1mvKjwntaqocO/tbl73UY1jDmReLge7</a><p>I expect lots of announcements from 5k to 10k-person companies over the next few weeks.
Sometimes I wonder how long "permanent" will be for these decisions. Off topic, but if the permanent work-from-home trend continues, I cannot imagine what is going to happen to commercial real estate. Convert to residential? Is this equilibrium needed for overheated housing markets?
Governments should offer tax incentives to companies for work-from-home. It reduces traffic snarl, pollution, accidents, health issues from sedentary commutes. Its a public policy and environmental win across the board.
It's interesting to see companies do this so soon into the WFH experiment. There are still lot of open questions around long-term planning, communication, mental health, and productivity.
Smart move from a talent aquisition POV. Had me looking at their postings right away [but, nothing fit my profile]. I'm sure others here did the same.
There is a trend among companies that have established themselves as a monopoly of sorts in a niche and stopped innovating.<p>They can work 'remotely'. Of course they can - they are hardly doing anything :)<p>Twitter, Basecamp, Shopify - what do all these companies have in common? They don't need to do anything and even if they could, they haven't for so long, that working in an office or remotely changes nothing. They're in maintenance mode - you can do maintenance mode from home while cutting staff/costs. Good.
This one is behind a paywall and i'm not a Bloomberg subscriber. Here's a long article published today at Vox that gets into this: <a href="https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/5/21/21234242/coronavirus-covid-19-remote-work-from-home-office-reopening" rel="nofollow">https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/5/21/21234242/coronavirus-co...</a><p>"A survey of senior finance leaders by research firm Gartner found that 74 percent of organizations plan to shift some employees to remote work permanently. Consulting company Global Workplace Analytics estimates that when the pandemic is over, 30 percent of the entire workforce will work from home at least a couple times a week. Before the pandemic, that number was in the low single digits."<p>This is kind of terrifying. I started working from home a few months before this mess, and i've found that work-life balance hasn't really improved. Yes, my day is more flexible — i can spend a few hours in the morning with my kid and make up lost time in the evening when she's down — but the days stick to one another, and i'm having trouble disconnecting completely. I used to get home from the office at 4:30, hang with the kid, get her to bed, and then have a few hours to either write or go to the gym or hang with my wife. These days, work is always on my mind to some degree, accompanied by low-level anxiety — and not just because of this surreal and disorienting pandemic.