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English as a second language: Test results on the most fluent countries

71 pointsby JCB_Kabout 14 years ago

14 comments

ubershmekelabout 14 years ago
Israel wasn't included. Anyhow here's a copy of the main graph:<p><pre><code> Rank, Country, EF EPI Score, Level 1 Norway 69.09 Very High Proficiency 2 Netherlands 67.93 Very High Proficiency 3 Denmark 66.58 Very High Proficiency 4 Sweden 66.26 Very High Proficiency 5 Finland 61.25 Very High Proficiency 6 Austria 58.58 High Proficiency 7 Belgium 57.23 High Proficiency 8 Germany 56.64 High Proficiency 9 Malaysia 55.54 High Proficiency 10 Poland 54.62 Moderate Proficiency 11 Switzerland 54.60 Moderate Proficiency 12 Hong Kong 54.44 Moderate Proficiency 13 South Korea 54.19 Moderate Proficiency 14 Japan 54.17 Moderate Proficiency 15 Portugal 53.62 Moderate Proficiency 16 Argentina 53.49 Moderate Proficiency 17 France 53.16 Moderate Proficiency 18 Mexico 51.48 Moderate Proficiency 19 Czech Republic 51.31 Moderate Proficiency 20 Hungary 50.80 Moderate Proficiency 21 Slovakia 50.64 Moderate Proficiency 22 Costa Rica 49.15 Low Proficiency 23 Italy 49.05 Low Proficiency 24 Spain 49.01 Low Proficiency 25 Taiwan 48.93 Low Proficiency 26 Saudi Arabia 48.05 Low Proficiency 27 Guatemala 47.80 Low Proficiency 28 El Salvador 47.65 Low Proficiency 29 China 47.62 Low Proficiency 30 India 47.35 Low Proficiency 31 Brazil 47.27 Low Proficiency 32 Russia 45.79 Low Proficiency 33 Dominican Republic 44.91 Very Low Proficiency 34 Indonesia 44.78 Very Low Proficiency 35 Peru 44.71 Very Low Proficiency 36 Chile 44.63 Very Low Proficiency 37 Ecuador 44.54 Very Low Proficiency 38 Venezuela 44.43 Very Low Proficiency 39 Vietnam 44.32 Very Low Proficiency 40 Panama 43.62 Very Low Proficiency 41 Colombia 42.77 Very Low Proficiency 42 Thailand 39.41 Very Low Proficiency 43 Turkey 37.66 Very Low Proficiency 44 Kazakhstan 31.74 Very Low Proficiency</code></pre>
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JCB_Kabout 14 years ago
There's a few more factors besides the ones in the article.<p>-Most of the languages high on the list are similar to English<p>-The countries don't dub movies. This has such a big impact. I learned most of my English from movies.
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siversabout 14 years ago
Singapore wasn't in the study because English is Singapore's first language. (Article mistakenly says that the reason is because it's too small.)<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore</a>
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compayabout 14 years ago
Argentina was #16 overall and #1 in Latin America. As an American living in Argentina I think that sounds about right. Knowledge of English is definitely more widespread here than in other countries in Latin America that I'm familiar with, particularly in Buenos Aires.
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kazuyaabout 14 years ago
Here is my take about Japan:<p>In Japan people learn English as a part of mandatory public education without targetting any practical use, and many companies mandate good exam score or certificate about English, even if they don't need English skills on the job.<p>This leaves Japanese in a strange parallel world of learning English, where the goal is scoring good and getting a nice job, not communicating with others.<p>Hence people without real incentive are forced to take globally standard English tests such as TOEFL or TOEIC, resulting in that low average score.
Tharkunabout 14 years ago
The results are pretty much what you'd expect, really. English proficiency is largely a cultural given. Movie dubbing and such definitely plays a big part of this, as language is largely assimilated by listening to it. If you're taught English by a French person and you never hear anyone else speak English, well, you're going to be a lot worse at English than someone with a comparable education who has more access to spoken English.<p>It's a shame that the study only shows results per country, and not per language region in countries. For instance in Belgium there are three language regions -- Dutch, French and German -- and I'm willing to bet that the results in each region are much closer to those of Holland/France/Germany than this meaningless average.<p>The reason why English is rather hard for speakers of Asian languages should be pretty obvious: there is such a <i>big</i> difference in sounds. The sounds used in English are <i>much</i> closer to those used in Spanish than Japanese, even though English and Spanish are already miles apart..
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kylemathewsabout 14 years ago
I was disappointed the Philippines didn't make it on the list. I spent two years there and they are ridiculously obsessed with learning English. Add to that the 50 years they spent as an English colony and they, as a nation, are exceptionally good at English. Even slum dwellers I'd find were often fairly proficient.
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jaysonelliotabout 14 years ago
The full report describes their methodology as including (but not limited to) results from people who took an online test at ef.com - this is the test: <a href="http://www.ef.com/master/tests/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ef.com/master/tests/</a>
wilhelmabout 14 years ago
As one would expect, the top of the list is dominated by small, peripheral European nations. As a Norwegian, I'm painfully aware that both my country and my language is too small to matter to anyone else. If I wish to interact with people abroad, I will have to do so on their terms, in their language.<p>And I do have to interact with people aboard. If you have a national economy or a cultural ecosystem consisting of fifty or hundred million people – like France, Germany or Japan – there's rarely a real _need_ to talk to anyone on the outside. There are enough newspapers, books, movies and records being produced in Japan to satisfy the domestic market – and the imported stuff can be translated and adapted without adding too much to the cost for each consumer.<p>For a country and language with less than five million people – not so much. We produced a total of 20 movies last year, and the climate on this frozen rock made sure our crops yielded only half of the food we actually need. If we didn't talk to anyone else, we'd be bored and starving.<p>Which regional great power dominates our trade and cultural input has varied over time. Norway was in the Hanseatic League's sphere of influence from the 1300s, and German language and culture had the greatest influence for almost a millennium. The harbour area of my home town of Bergen is still named “the German Wharf”. And my great grandmother told the German soldiers approaching her in April 1940 to fuck off in perfect German.<p>During and after the war, the Anglo-american economic and cultural influence quickly surpassed the German. The Cold War brought us even closer to the US, despite the American culture being rather … incompatible with the Norwegian.<p>The stories are similar for most of the other small European countries. But how the English language influences the native tongue varies wildly from one country to the next. The differences are especially noticeable between Norway and Denmark.<p>Some more historical background first:<p>Norway is a very young nation-state. From 1380 to 1814, Norway was part of Denmark. From 1814 to 1905, Norway was in a personal union under the Swedish king. As of the 19th century, we didn't have our own written language. We spoke Norwegian, but wrote Danish. As Norwegian nationalism grew during the 1800s, a charming gentleman called Ivar Aasen set out to create a Norwegian written language. He traveled around the country, taking note of how people actually spoke. Dialects vary wildly between different parts of the realm (I haven't seen this much internal variation in any other country), but he did distill what he heard down to a set of grammar and vocabulary.<p>The adoption of Ivar Aasen's nynorsk (literally: New Norwegian), too, varied a lot from region to region. It was generally recieved well on the countryside. In the cities, the Norwegian upper classes had developed an amalgam dialect combining the original local tongue and Danish. They were greatly opposed to this uncivilized new language, and brought much of the urban working classes onto their team. So for the past 150 years, we've been been fighting, sometimes almost literally, about how to write. Today we have two official written languages – bokmål (literally: book language) and nynorsk. There was a stranded effort in the mid-1900s to unify them, but they have influenced each other a lot. Bokmål isn't very much like Danish anymore, and standard nynorsk is quite watered down.<p>The result of these struggles is that how a Norwegian speaks and writes is a significant part of his identity. The dialect shows which region you come from and which social class you belong to (or aspire to belong to), and each one comes with pride. Not chauvinism or jingoism, but genuine pride. I live in Oslo, but if I come home to Bergen and show signs of being influenced by the Oslo dialect, I will be ridiculed by friends and family. For real. (c:<p>Now, back to my point. The Danish language today is heavily influenced by English. The frequency of loan words is staggering. A number of English words have found their way into the Norwegian language too, but an order of magnitude less. I believe this is due to our history. The Danes were never colonized by anyone, and haven't spent much time philosophizing about how they speak or write. We have, and it shows.<p>(Other interesting tangents: Why have the Norwegian dialects diverged so much? Why can Norwegians understand Swedish but Swedes have a hard time understanding Norwegian? Why has Norway stayed out of the European Union? Why is the English influence of the Norwegian language more noticeable in the capital than elsewhere?)
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bambaxabout 14 years ago
Jean-Louis Borloo, who at some point in time was rumored to be the next Prime Minister of France, just launched (today) a new political formation, called "Alliance Républicaine, Sociale et Ecologique".<p>It doesn't really mean anything, but it spells: ARSE.<p>It's going to be fun when he shows his business card to British journalists...?<p>If you don't believe it (I couldn't), see:<p><a href="http://www.lecentrisme.com/2011/04/actualites-du-centre-jean-louis-borloo.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.lecentrisme.com/2011/04/actualites-du-centre-jean...</a>
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askar_yuabout 14 years ago
Very interesting. Evaluating the English skills based on tests is like evaluating programmers based on how well they do on programming contests (i.e ICPC). For example, if this test was given to high school students about to graduate, I would expect China to be in top.
tokenadultabout 14 years ago
"This was not a statistically controlled study: the subjects took a free test online and of their own accord."<p>This is by far the most important point made in the article in The Economist, but so far it is little reflected in the comments here on HN. The reported results have some broad plausibility to me, as a native speaker of General American English who has lived overseas (including living in an international dormitory with residents from all over the world, who variously used English-as-a-second-language, French-as-a-first-or-second language, Spanish-as-a-first-language, or Chinese-as-a-second-language as interlanguages). But the reported results may or may not reflect the reality of the situation in the real world, as the editor of The Economist takes care to note.<p>It's time to dust of the electrons on my FAQ post on voluntary response polls.<p>VOLUNTARY RESPONSE POLLS<p>As I commented previously when we had a poll on the ages of HNers, the data can't be relied on to make such an inference (what the average age of HN participants is). That's because the data are not from a random sample of the relevant population. One professor of statistics, who is a co-author of a highly regarded AP statistics textbook, has tried to popularize the phrase that "voluntary response data are worthless" to go along with the phrase "correlation does not imply causation." Other statistics teachers are gradually picking up this phrase.<p>-----Original Message----- From: Paul Velleman [SMTPfv2@cornell.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 5:10 PM To: apstat-l@etc.bc.ca; Kim Robinson Cc: mmbalach@mtu.edu Subject: Re: qualtiative study<p>Sorry Kim, but it just aint so. Voluntary response data are worthless. One excellent example is the books by Shere Hite. She collected many responses from biased lists with voluntary response and drew conclusions that are roundly contradicted by all responsible studies. She claimed to be doing only qualitative work, but what she got was just plain garbage. Another famous example is the Literary Digest "poll". All you learn from voluntary response is what is said by those who choose to respond. Unless the respondents are a substantially large fraction of the population, they are very likely to be a biased -- possibly a very biased -- subset. Anecdotes tell you nothing at all about the state of the world. They can't be "used only as a description" because they describe nothing but themselves.<p><a href="http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=194473&#38;tstart=36420" rel="nofollow">http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=194473&#38;tsta...</a><p>For more on the distinction between statistics and mathematics, see<p><a href="http://statland.org/MAAFIXED.PDF" rel="nofollow">http://statland.org/MAAFIXED.PDF</a><p>and<p><a href="http://escholarship.org/uc/item/6hb3k0nz" rel="nofollow">http://escholarship.org/uc/item/6hb3k0nz</a><p>I think Professor Velleman promotes "Voluntary response data are worthless" as a slogan for the same reason an earlier generation of statisticians taught their students the slogan "correlation does not imply causation." That's because common human cognitive errors run strongly in one direction on each issue, so the slogan has take the cognitive error head-on. Of course, a distinct pattern in voluntary responses tells us SOMETHING (maybe about what kind of people come forward to respond), just as a correlation tells us SOMETHING (maybe about a lurking variable correlated with both things we observe), but it doesn't tell us enough to warrant a firm conclusion about facts of the world. The Literary Digest poll intended to predict the election results in the United States in 1932<p><a href="http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5168/" rel="nofollow">http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5168/</a><p><a href="http://www.math.uah.edu/stat/data/LiteraryDigest.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.math.uah.edu/stat/data/LiteraryDigest.pdf</a><p>is a spectacular historical example of a voluntary response poll with a HUGE sample size and high response rate that didn't give a correct picture of reality at all.<p>When I have brought up this issue before, some other HNers have replied that there are some statistical tools for correcting for response-bias effects, IF one can obtain a simple random sample of the population of interest and evaluate what kinds of people respond. But we can't do that in the case being discussed here in this thread on HN.<p>Another reply I frequently see when I bring up this issue is that the public relies on voluntary response data all the time to make conclusions about reality. To that I refer careful readers to what Professor Velleman is quoted as saying above (the general public often believes statements that are baloney) and to what Google's director of research, Peter Norvig, says about research conducted with better data,<p><a href="http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html" rel="nofollow">http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html</a><p>that even good data (and Norvig would not generally characterize voluntary response data as good data) can lead to wrong conclusions if there isn't careful thinking behind a study design. Again, human beings have strong predilections to believe certain kinds of wrong data and wrong conclusions. We are not neutral evaluators of data and conclusions, but have predispositions (cognitive illusions) that lead to making mistakes without careful training and thought.<p>Another frequently seen reply is that sometimes a "convenience sample" (this is a common term among statisticians for a sample that can't be counted on to be a random sample) of a population offers just that, convenience, and should not be rejected on that basis alone. But the most thoughtful version of that frequent reply I recently saw did correctly point out that if we know from the get-go that the sample was not done statistically correctly, then even if we are confident (enough) that Norwegians who responded to an online poll are reasonably fluent in English, we wouldn't want to extrapolate from that to conclude that any particular social or educational factor present in Norway provides an advantage in learning the English language, or that Panamanians on average are some of the least fluent speakers of English in the world.<p>On my part, I wildly guess that most western Europeans who have completed secondary education in the last three decades are moderately fluent in English, if only because they have occasion to use English as an interlanguage when speaking to other Europeans (something I have seen happen many, many times) and because they have much exposure to English-language media content (books, movies, radio broadcasts, TV shows). People who live in Latin America and who have occasion to travel to neighboring countries (including Brazil) have considerably more occasions to use Spanish as an interlanguage, even with native speakers of Portuguese, and thus somewhat reduced tendency to keep their English in practice.<p>The way to know which social or educational or economic factor is most important in the spread of world English as the global interlanguage would be to do an even more careful study than the interesting preliminary study reported here. Meanwhile, we will be trading anecdotes based on personal experience, which I will read with interest to supplement my personal experience.
Krshnaabout 14 years ago
Empirical Forum... English = Technology = World Domination..
leon_about 14 years ago
I can guess why the Dutch are better english speakers than we here in Germany. In the Netherlands movies and tv-shows are not dubbed - only subtitled. In Germany everything is dubbed.<p>Since I decided to watch movies and shows in english my (actively spoken) english improved (reading and understanding was never a problem). It's not perfect but it's far better than the english I was speaking after I left school.<p>Blame the TV :)
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