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Hard work vs. Long work (2011)

208 pointsby artoover 4 years ago

21 comments

war1025over 4 years ago
I like this, but also on some level I feel like it&#x27;s nothing more than inspirational &quot;rah-rah&quot; garbage.<p>I wish he would have expanded on it.<p>A great example of the distinction from my younger days:<p>We had the game GranTurismo2 back when I was 12 or so.<p>We wanted the really fancy &quot;best&quot; car in the game.<p>The right way to get the good cars is to improve your skill and gain access to the higher level races that have bigger prizes.<p>That&#x27;s the &quot;hard work&quot; part.<p>What we did instead was do one of the easy races over and over and over again for a couple days until we had enough saved up in the game to buy the car.<p>That&#x27;s &quot;long work&quot;<p>It&#x27;s stupid and boring and no fun.<p>If you want a fulfilling life, go for the &quot;hard work&quot;.<p>Which I guess is also just a stupid &quot;rah-rah&quot; inspirational quip.
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GCA10over 4 years ago
This is a useful distinction, but it this misses what&#x27;s actually hard about &quot;hard work.&quot; The risk of failure is only 20% of the issue.<p>What&#x27;s central is the fact that do hard work well, you need to temporarily tear apart the solution-forming systems that have served you adequately so far -- and put them back together in a different way. In the midst of this, there&#x27;s genuine discomfort and nausea. Even if you know you&#x27;ll eventually get it right, having everything in pieces on the floor is very jarring.<p>Finding your way through a lot of missteps, near misses and roadblocks takes a special sort of perseverance. I&#x27;ve done this long enough in my work that I get mordant joy from tracking the misses. Versions 2, 2A, 2B and 2C were dead-ends. It&#x27;s on to Versions 3, 3A, etc.<p>Usually version 4E or so gets the job done. And it&#x27;s elegant and I&#x27;m happy again. I had one epic struggle that went into the 7s. I ended up cracking it in a borrowed lab in Arizona, because the usual settings in NYC and CT were not getting me there.<p>Being patient and persistent at times like that is hard.
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devmunchiesover 4 years ago
This makes me think of war time vs peace time. During a war, the govt will put engineers and architects into an R&amp;D incubator with all the resources they need. To the engineers, the fact that there is a war is irrelevant, they aren&#x27;t paying attention to that, they&#x27;re just focussing on innovation because it&#x27;s their job.<p>Couldn&#x27;t this scenario be simulated, even without war? I think of bell labs.<p>It strange that innovative environments, filled with hard work, aren&#x27;t a priority until its a matter of life or death (of a company, nations, etc.)<p>Related movie by studio Ghibli (engineers innovating during war time): <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Wind_Rises" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;The_Wind_Rises</a>
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Frost1xover 4 years ago
&gt;Hard work is frightening. We shy away from hard work because inherent in hard work is risk. Hard work is hard because you might fail. You can’t fail at long work, you merely show up. You fail at hard work when you don’t make an emotional connection, or when you don’t solve the problem or when you hesitate.<p>I disagree with this, at least what the author classifies as risk. I&#x27;m more than happy to take on challenging work, work I am emotionally connected to and want to see succeed--then fail. I can deal with failure and progress on just fine because I have pretty iron clad motivation. I&#x27;ve worked in R&amp;D environments most my life and I can assure you, research has a lot of failure if you&#x27;re doing it correctly.<p>The risk that makes certain work &quot;hard&quot; vs others is that failure results in livelihood setbacks: not having food, not having a place to live, financial failure, health risks, not having any bit of job security, etc. Those to me are the real risks people shy away from when we talk about &quot;hard&quot; work.<p>Give me a difficult&#x2F;creative problem or task and I can try for hours, days, weeks, months, years... to find a solution, but only if I know at the end of the day I&#x27;ll have a reasonably comfortable life.<p>The way a lot of work is structured, I find &quot;hard&quot; work is that which has inherent livelihood risk to the person doing the work in some way, shape, or form. It could be health risk work (say a police officer), failed research resulting in lack of a job, or a poor new art collection that ruins the future career of an artist.<p>Our society needs to learn to be more accepting to to a few more degrees of failure than the hypercompetiveness currently allows. Less and less failure is being acceptable and it&#x27;s completely unrealistic to hold all humans to these standards. Yes, we should reward high risk success but should we punish every form of failure as we often do? Sure, laziness can be masked under failure and abuse this leniency, but so can success.
martindbpover 4 years ago
I prefer the labels &quot;predictable&quot; vs &quot;unpredictable&quot; work. For example, I&#x27;ve been experience the difference between research and back-end web dev work lately, and the main difference is that for research you don&#x27;t know if it will pan out, while for back-end work you&#x27;re almost always making incremental progress towards the end-goal. But I wouldn&#x27;t necessarily call research &quot;harder&quot;, it&#x27;s just different. It&#x27;s usually more difficult conceptually, but there&#x27;s also way less stuff you need to keep in your head at the same time.
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PaulDavisThe1stover 4 years ago
&quot;You can work long, you can work hard and you can work smart, but you can only do 2 out of 3&quot;<p>-- source unknown, common among programmers on usenet in the 1990s
sisciaover 4 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;webcache.googleusercontent.com&#x2F;search?q=cache:Df6ZI4_GhcgJ:https:&#x2F;&#x2F;seths.blog&#x2F;2011&#x2F;05&#x2F;hard-work-vs-long-work&#x2F;+&amp;cd=2&amp;hl=it&amp;ct=clnk&amp;gl=ch&amp;client=ubuntu" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;webcache.googleusercontent.com&#x2F;search?q=cache:Df6ZI4...</a>
anderscoover 4 years ago
It seems what is being called “hard work” here really is “expert work” which often can be no work at all, in that it rests on the shoulders of likely thousands of previous hours of long work, and can sometimes feel effortless. One seminal example of this Paula Scher’s 5 minute design of the Citigroup logo. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;link.medium.com&#x2F;KuxBw6rJi9" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;link.medium.com&#x2F;KuxBw6rJi9</a>
bschneover 4 years ago
Somewhat related, from Andy Matuschak whose notes were on here earlier today, on the feeling of progress when doing open-ended work:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.andymatuschak.org&#x2F;post&#x2F;159979927467&#x2F;satisfaction-and-progress-in-open-ended-work" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.andymatuschak.org&#x2F;post&#x2F;159979927467&#x2F;satisfactio...</a>
amanziover 4 years ago
I really love this graphic showing the difference between hard work and being productive: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;lizandmollie&#x2F;status&#x2F;1231605700960432128&#x2F;photo&#x2F;1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;lizandmollie&#x2F;status&#x2F;1231605700960432128&#x2F;...</a>
squibblesover 4 years ago
For those who are musically inclined -- When learning to play a musical instrument (including voice), the distinction between long work and hard work is the difference between spending time and making progress. Long work is mindless practice; hard work is identifying weaknesses and using targeted practice to improve.<p>For those in marketing -- Long work is spending more on an advertising campaign; hard work is determining what increases the conversion rate.<p>For those in computer science or mathematics -- Long work is implementing a brute force approach to calculating a specific result; hard work is generalizing the problem and generating a class of results.<p>For students -- Long work is studying to pass a specific exam; hard work is internalizing the fundamental principles of a subject so you can derive answers regardless of the particular exam questions.
k__over 4 years ago
Important point: &quot;Hard work&quot; doesn&#x27;t mean it has to be feel hard for you to do it.<p>If you have fun setting up a K8s cluster, that&#x27;s still hard work.
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bullenover 4 years ago
What about &quot;deep&quot; work? The kind of work that requires you to understand the fundamentals of a complex system to be able to simplify&#x2F;modify it for the better.
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thisisbriansover 4 years ago
Seth is always pithy and thus leaves a lot of room for interpretation, but I do find this an interesting prompt.<p>&quot;Hard&quot; is, of course, very subjective and depends a lot on the person and the project. What&#x27;s hard for me may not be hard for someone else due to skillset, personal risk, time pressure, mindset, etc. and vice versa.<p>What&#x27;s created hard work for me in the course of founding a startup is constantly balancing delivery timelines against a lack of resources and deep skills on the team. Having to invent my way out of situations I&#x27;m not technically qualified to handle where there is real risk to the business in being wrong or late has been harrowing, but also a very effective way to grow my skillset.
yamrzouover 4 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;nGVxb" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;nGVxb</a>
allie1over 4 years ago
I think it’s what the “failure” would mean for a person that makes it hard, part of the fixed mindset Carol Dweck is talking about, i.e. only seeking validation of what one thinks of oneself.
bryanrasmussenover 4 years ago
there are two other salient differences between hard work and long work - hard work when the person is skillful enough to do it is energizing, long work is always draining.
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bluedinoover 4 years ago
It’s like sports stars. You se the championship game on TV, but you don’t see the years of practicing, eating the right diet, all the sacrifices...
knownover 4 years ago
The Self-Attribution Fallacy <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;VCuFO" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;VCuFO</a>
watertomover 4 years ago
Using his definitions, I hate long work.<p>I avoid long work, I&#x27;ll take hard work always.
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naringasover 4 years ago
aka the toil vs the hustle